Author Topic: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying  (Read 309455 times)

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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #325 on: May 26, 2013, 19:00:07 »
.... There is no reason that information/intelligence could not be passed to the RCMP, other than "Empire building" and "risk averse" legal advisors .... Someone has to really get their shyte together.
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #326 on: May 26, 2013, 19:19:31 »
Apart from the mysterious legal advice mentioned in the article - wonder if that's ATIP'able?


There is no reason that information/intelligence could not be passed to the RCMP, other than "Empire building" and "risk adverse" legal advisors.  A competent intelligence analyst could have easily written an "Intelligence Product" that had the necessary facts for those that needed to know (RCMP), in order for them make an arrest.  There is no need to 'specifically' identify sources.  There is no need to divulge large amounts of information collected, some, or a lot of it, irrelevant.   Not to have passed on information/intelligence to the RSMP defeats the whole existence of this organization.  It means that they are a "toothless" agency of the government, and a waste of taxpayer's dollars.   Someone has to really get their shyte together.

George,
I think you are failing to recognize CSIS's role, they are not peace officers and do not follow the Canada Evidence Act in the collection of information. CSIS collects information "differently" than traditional law enforcement agencies, example in that they gather information from foreign sources and governments that do not follow the same rules as we do. A lot of information gathered by CSIS would not be admissible in court. When CSIS refers something to the RCMP, it has to follow very strict protocols, without giving evidence or direction to the RCMP.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/judge-spikes-child-porn-case-against-muslim-preacher-targeted-by-csis/article4328332/

What CSIS does is to identify and disrupt organizations that are of national security concerns. I don't know why they didn't notify the RCMP earlier, but I believe identifying foreign intelligence operatives and their network might have been a mitigating factor.

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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #327 on: May 26, 2013, 19:59:04 »
.............. When CSIS refers something to the RCMP, it has to follow very strict protocols, without giving evidence or direction to the RCMP.

............... I don't know why they didn't notify the RCMP earlier, but I believe identifying foreign intelligence operatives and their network might have been a mitigating factor.


All intelligence gathering organizations have to follow strict protocols to protect their 'sources'.   That is a given.  They can still produce an Intelligence Product that can be disseminated to those that need to know, ie. the RCMP.  They failed to do so.  Saying that they did not want to identify foreign intelligence operators and their network is a red herring.  They would not have done so in the first place, as that would not have been in any way, shape or form protecting a source(s). 
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #328 on: May 26, 2013, 20:33:09 »


Have you read any of this yet?  As already stated several times; there is no need for them to have revealed a "trove of Canadian and U.S. secrets of the intelligence trade".  Competent Intelligence Operators/Analysts are quite capable of protecting their "sources" and craft.  An intelligence product passed to the RCMP should have been a very simple matter.  As stated, there is no requirement to give the RCMP a mountain of paper.  Only the relevant information needed to be shared.  This was an "Epic Fail".

There is something in the collection of evidence call the "fruit of the poisonous tree", if the courts believe the information was collected not according to the law, all information, evidence etc that benefited from that information is not admissible. Many cases have fallen because of this issue.
I don't disagree that it is a common practice for agencies to disclose their human source information, but you must "source it back". Meaning you have to explain how your source came to know this information, if the information was collected illegally or would identify your source, you don't use it. An example would be, if CSIS was talking to country X and country X does not need legislative authorities for wiretaps or has a history of torture etc, that information cannot be used as evidence in a Canadian court.




(Edited to reflect correct person who is quoted.)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 20:45:03 by George Wallace »

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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #329 on: May 26, 2013, 20:42:49 »
On the other side of the coin, Organizations like CSIS do have a tendency to be very risk adverse and can be overly cautious when it comes to revealing information to outside agencies, even when it serves national interests.

Sometimes it can be rather comical, sometimes they end up tripping over their own ... feet?
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #330 on: May 26, 2013, 22:25:28 »
On the other side of the coin, Organizations like CSIS do have a tendency to be very risk adverse and can be overly cautious when it comes to revealing information to outside agencies, even when it serves national interests.

Sometimes it can be rather comical, sometimes they end up tripping over their own ... feet?

Remember this was the first time anyone has been charged under the SIA. I would suspect that the legal-beagles wanted to have all their ducks-in-a-role before they proceeded with the case.

Still, it doesn't explain why they didn't bring the RCMP in right-away.  After all, if this guy was selling secrets like everyone says he was, you don't want to waste any time before arresting him.
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #331 on: May 26, 2013, 22:53:37 »
On the other side of the coin, Organizations like CSIS do have a tendency to be very risk adverse and can be overly cautious when it comes to revealing information to outside agencies, even when it serves national interests.

Sometimes it can be rather comical, sometimes they end up tripping over their own ... feet?

Hmm... not quite the way I'd describe the CSIS personnel I've known.  Or, in other words, You don't know Jack.

Given the folks I know, it would not surprise me at all if CSIS verbally requested the FBI to tip off the RCMP.  Very non-ATIP-able (if that's a word); meets the need; and protects what they've done from a defence attorney requesting disclosure.

I suspect CSIS exploited the knowledge of the spy to identify Russian handlers, then use them to identify and track other agents.

Games within games...
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #332 on: May 27, 2013, 10:22:47 »

On the other side of the coin, Organizations like CSIS do have a tendency to be very risk adverse and can be overly cautious when it comes to revealing information to outside agencies, even when it serves national interests.

Sometimes it can be rather comical, sometimes they end up tripping over their own ... feet?

Hmm... not quite the way I'd describe the CSIS personnel I've known.  Or, in other words, You don't know Jack.

Given the folks I know, it would not surprise me at all if CSIS verbally requested the FBI to tip off the RCMP.  Very non-ATIP-able (if that's a word); meets the need; and protects what they've done from a defence attorney requesting disclosure.

I suspect CSIS exploited the knowledge of the spy to identify Russian handlers, then use them to identify and track other agents.

Games within games...

Yeah, I was kinda wondering where cupper came by his amazing insight into the inner workings of these organizations and what qualifies him to make these statements also.
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #333 on: May 27, 2013, 13:14:32 »
Yeah, I was kinda wondering where cupper came by his amazing insight into the inner workings of these organizations and what qualifies him to make these statements also.

The Internet, of course!  ;D

Like any piece of current affairs journalism these days, this article only shows one side of the story.  The other side we may never see, unfortunately, due to OPSEC. 
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #334 on: May 27, 2013, 13:46:12 »
Apart from the mysterious legal advice mentioned in the article - wonder if that's ATIP'able?


There is no reason that information/intelligence could not be passed to the RCMP, other than "Empire building" and "risk adverse" legal advisors.  A competent intelligence analyst could have easily written an "Intelligence Product" that had the necessary facts for those that needed to know (RCMP), in order for them make an arrest.  There is no need to 'specifically' identify sources.  There is no need to divulge large amounts of information collected, some, or a lot of it, irrelevant.   Not to have passed on information/intelligence to the RSMP defeats the whole existence of this organization.  It means that they are a "toothless" agency of the government, and a waste of taxpayer's dollars.   Someone has to really get their shyte together.

What I'm curious about, is why the CFNCIU wasn't involved ( I'm just assuming, but I can't remember any reference to it at all in anything I've seen on the Delisle affair). From reading their mandate, it seems to me like it would have been the obvious choice. Unless I'm missing something.

Wouldn't CSIS and the NCIU have some sort of relationship?
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #335 on: May 27, 2013, 15:58:07 »
What I'm curious about, is why the CFNCIU wasn't involved ( I'm just assuming, but I can't remember any reference to it at all in anything I've seen on the Delisle affair). From reading their mandate, it seems to me like it would have been the obvious choice. Unless I'm missing something.

Wouldn't CSIS and the NCIU have some sort of relationship?

I guess not.

 
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #336 on: May 27, 2013, 17:06:24 »
Perhaps they were involved and are flying under the radar to avoid the spotlight.
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #337 on: May 27, 2013, 21:24:10 »

Wouldn't CSIS and the NCIU have some sort of relationship?

There is. The NCIU's mandate is investigate and counter threats to the Canadian Forces. That includes liaising with civilian police/security agencies to help identify any threats. See Canadian Forces National Counter-Intelligence Unit, and Security Intelligence Liaison Program ,
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #338 on: September 22, 2013, 21:02:56 »
Edited to add: Thanks to the mods for the thread name change.  :)

A related update for Sept. 2013:

link

Quote

Military was steamed about not being able to court martial navy spy
The Canadian Press

OTTAWA - The Canadian military was privately furious the Harper government did not allow it to court-martial a naval intelligence officer who sold top-secret allied information to the Russians.

And the decision could well have far-reaching implications and potentially compound the damage done by former sub-lieutenant Jeffrey Delisle, says an intelligence expert who followed the case.

The 42-year-old Delisle was sentenced to 20 years in prison earlier this year after pleading guilty to selling classified Western intelligence to Russia during a four-year period which began in 2007.

He was arrested in January 2012 after the FBI tipped off the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, which after months of surveillance brought in the RCMP to build a criminal case.

The military was brought into the loop only after the investigation was well on its way towards a civilian prosecution.


"All senior government authorities involved in security and intelligence matters should be made aware of the alternatives available to pursue suspects subject to the Code of Service discipline, so that automatic defaults to mechanisms more applicable to civilians do not occur," said a newly declassified military assessment of the damage wrought by the spy scandal.

"Little or no discussion concerning the advantages of employing the military police to lead the criminal investigation, the (Canadian Forces National Counter-Intelligence Unit) to lead the counter-intelligence investigation and laying the charges under the Military Justice Systems appears to have occurred and/or fully informed decisions made with regard to the way ahead."

When someone joins the Forces, they are subject to a totally separate justice system while in uniform and on base. Infractions committed off-base can be dealt with in civilian courts, such as in the case of the sex murder charges against former air force colonel Russell Williams.

The rules for courts martial give the military wide latitude on what evidence is presented in public and what is kept secret.

It would have been in the country's best interest to prosecute Delisle by court martial because the public disclosure of details through the civilian system has laid bare weaknesses in the intelligence community, said Michel Juneau-Katsuya, a former CSIS agent
.

(...)

« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 21:19:55 by S.M.A. »
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #339 on: September 22, 2013, 21:16:11 »
Shouldn't this thread be updated/retitled to "The Lt. (N) Jeffrey Delisle espionage case" to prevent confusion?
Good call.

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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #340 on: September 22, 2013, 21:28:44 »
Well maybe since light has been shone on the weakness it will compel the Intelligence community to get their crap together sooner then later.
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #341 on: September 23, 2013, 05:57:37 »
There are, at the highest level of "the Harper government," sectretariats (staff branches) that are very well aware of "the alternatives available to pursue suspects subject to the Code of Service discipline" and who are equally aware of the capabilities and limitations of the military police, the Canadian Forces National Counter-Intelligence Unit, and the Military Justice Systems.

My guess would be that the people at the very top of the national intelligence business ~ none of whom wear uniforms and all of whom work in PCO* ~ decided, after consulting with similarly highly placed people in e.g. America, Australia, Britain, New Zealand, etc, that they wanted the best shot at a proper, professional investigation and a solid, appeal proof conviction so they went with real police, professional CI folks and civil courts.


Edit to add:
_____
* There is a commodore/brigadier general assigned to the Privy Council Office, as an advisor, but (s)he is NOT "at the very top" of any of the policy/security/defence/intelligence secretariats.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 10:49:35 by E.R. Campbell »
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #342 on: September 23, 2013, 10:20:01 »
As long as he gets nailed to the wall as hard as possible, I am happy with the end result regardless of the method.

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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #343 on: September 24, 2013, 01:10:20 »
As long as he gets nailed to the wall as hard as possible, I am happy with the end result regardless of the method.
My thoughts exactly.  :nod:
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #344 on: August 21, 2018, 18:48:47 »
Reference: CBC.ca

Quote
Convicted spy released on parole less than halfway into sentence
Former Canadian navy officer, 47, was sentenced to 20 years in prison for sharing secrets with Russia
Gabrielle Fahmy · CBC News · Posted: Aug 21, 2018 4:32 PM AT


The Parole Board of Canada decided Tuesday to release convicted spy Jeffrey Delisle on day parole, after a two-hour hearing at Dorchester Penitentiary in New Brunswick.

Delisle, 47, a former Canadian naval intelligence officer, was sentenced to 20 years in prison for, in the words of the  sentencing judge, "coldly and rationally" selling secrets to Russia.

It was considered Canada's biggest spy scandal in more than half a century. 

The RCMP arrested Delisle in January 2012, charging him with two counts of communicating information to a foreign entity without lawful authority and with breach of trust.

He was sent to prison in February 2013.


More at link
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #345 on: March 08, 2019, 16:06:00 »
And in the "Before you knew it" department, Navy spy Jeffrey Delisle granted full parole

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/03/08/jailed-navy-spy-jeffrey-delisle-granted-full-parole-federal-board/#.XILYrihKi71
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #346 on: March 11, 2019, 08:45:04 »
In a number of countries around the world this person would have been executed or never be let of prison. 

Here in Canada, being a spy (traitor) while in the service of your countries armed forces results in only 6yrs in prison and then some parole.....

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEHP3jPEcgiAbXr_4soCVAd4qGQgEKhAIACoHCAow6f-ICzDjj4gDMK2RnwY


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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #347 on: March 11, 2019, 08:48:46 »

I'm probably picking fly crap out of pepper but the topic thread seems to indicate that he was spy that worked for the Navy.
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Re: Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying
« Reply #348 on: March 11, 2019, 12:26:11 »
He''ll be home before 90% of you guys a new posting.....

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