Author Topic: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.  (Read 64846 times)

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Offline BadgerTrapper

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 21:08:57 »
Medical Technician's deployed to the Combat arms, do they fight with that unit as if they were the same role as that unit. I.e. Would a Medical Tech with the infantry fight with the Infantry? And man an artillery piece if they are artillery?

Offline medicineman

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 21:23:24 »
You are ancillary staff with the Cbt Arms - if you're in a firefight, you shoot back obviously, but you also have other issues to worry about usually as well  ;).  You aren't a gun number on a gun or crewman in a tank (though you can be crew in the armoured ambulance).

MM
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Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline BadgerTrapper

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 21:30:08 »
Though they wouldn't give a Med Tech a C9 and have them lay down suppressive fire? They'd focus on being a mobile element in a Firefight, attending to the wounds of those who need it? While partaking in the Firefight itself . . . I like the sounds of this.

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2012, 21:44:58 »
I'd be surprised if they gave you a C-9 - they're a bit of a target, and the infantry guys have a vested interest in making sure you're protected.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline DiverMedic

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 08:36:58 »
I'd be surprised if they gave you a C-9 - they're a bit of a target, and the infantry guys have a vested interest in making sure you're protected.

MM

Chances are highly unlikely you will be given a C9 or C6, you need to remain mobile in case anyone is injured, plus the MG is a pretty essential piece of kit in an infantry section.  Having said that tho, you are trained in how to use them and most medics end up doing SQ and spend some time doing live fire.

DM

Offline jmlane

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 17:05:13 »
Maintaining vehicles and equipment that are necessary in order for your unit to accomplish its mission is not "busy work".
It may be considered busy work for those members that signed-up to do a job that they did not think included such duties, regardless of how necessary it may be in actuality. My point was that the recruiting materials and information given by some recruiters do not always honestly disclose the frequency of your day-to-day admin/maintenance duties. I understand trying to obtain recruiting numbers and using marketing tactics to do so, however there should be more clarity about the not-so-obvious duties each member can expect to be doing regularly. It is preferable to have people with an understanding that these duties are necessary to maintain operational capacity (as you pointed out), as opposed to dealing with disgruntled new members who felt "tricked" into that work.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2012, 04:48:57 »
I'd be surprised if they gave you a C-9 - they're a bit of a target, and the infantry guys have a vested interest in making sure you're protected.

MM

Not to mention that as a med tech you carry a weapon only  for self defense or the defense of your patients.

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2012, 13:39:49 »
Not to mention that as a med tech you carry a weapon only  for self defense or the defense of your patients patience.

FTFY... ;D

All joking aside, we've crossed into an interesting gray zone - we remounted C-6's on the armoured ambs, we're preaching scene safety=killing/suppressing bad guys, etc.  In theory, medics aren't to carry or be employed on crew served weapons - of course my Pl WO with 1VP many moons ago then made me the #2 on the 60mm if we were in a defensive, since the CCP and alternate CP were one in the same with the mortar pit, so I could be gainfully employed if not plugging holes.  From dealings with the US, in particular the USN Hospital Corpsmen with the Marines, there were wide variations of what they carried - usually a pistol and or a 12G shotgun, sometimes an M-16/M-4.  As the guys with their Recon Units are considered shooters, some often ended up with a SAW.  The Army medics I worked with usually had an M-16 or M-4.

I'd be interested to hear the legal interpretation of a medic carrying even the cut down version of the C-9, since even a rifle is an offensive weapon really, since the range exceeds that of our personal defense type weapons (SMG's, pistols).
 
My morning caffiene deficient :2c:

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline MedCorps

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2012, 17:31:06 »
There has been some talk on this recently, given the current contemporary operating environment.

It comes down to something like this:

A weapon is a tool. Tools can be used offensively or defensively, or to prop open a door or as shovel.

Canadian personnel subject to the Geneva Convention, regardless of the environment or adversarial compliance with the Geneva Convention will only use weapons defensively to protect themselves or their patients.  Can a aggressive fighting defence exist? Most certainly... if required based on the threat. We have a number of examples from the current conflict.

So then we look at the concept of  weapons for CFHS personnel, based on the War Establishment.  These include the service pistol, the service rifle / carbine (although there are no C8's on the TO&E), the light machine gun for area defence (Role 2 and 3), and the Claymore Command Detonated Weapon (Role 2 and 3). If it is on the TO&E for the War Establishment is it save to assume that one can use it in a defensive role.  Most notably missing is the fragmentation grenade, which has been deemed but someone to be a weapon designed more for offensive purposes than defensive purposes and hence not on the TO&E for HS units.

The C6 on armoured ambulances, is still a fiercely debated topic and is a frequent ethical topic debated at all officer ranks and within the JAG (I am not sure I have ever heard and NCM debate the concept much).  It is a current exemption to the rule, based on a sound legal opinion and requires a semi-annual review and sign off by the Generals involved in assuming the liability and risk for allowing such an activity. We will see where this settles when all is said and done at the end of Afghanistan operations. The War Establishment TO&E does not have this weapons system on allocation.

You are in a position that is being attacked and a collective defence needs to be mounted with you as the #2 on the mortar... is this ok?  I would think so, it is given that a collective defence is required to assure your survival and you are just doing your bit.

You are trying to prep fire a target with the the same mortar prior to it being assaulted with troops as part of an offensive operations with you as #2 on the tube... is this ok?  I would suggest no.

You need to fire illumination... I would suggest this is fine, regardless of the offensive / defensive situation as the weapon system is not being used directly for killing but rather as a flashlight.

In the end we all need to live with our actions at the end of the day and we are all grown ups.

There are some other issues with respect to the GC and war that are a little more complex and that I will not get into here.

Just some food for thought based on the current state of business.

MC

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2012, 18:10:33 »

The C6 on armoured ambulances, is still a fiercely debated topic and is a frequent ethical topic debated at all officer ranks and within the JAG (I am not sure I have ever heard and NCM debate the concept much).

That's because we understand that ambulances are bullet magnets that require the ability to provide sufficient return fire.
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Offline mikeninercharlie

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 18:22:59 »
I was present when a former DGHS damn near blew an ovary when she discovered that ambulances, with the red crosses concealed, were being armed with C6s. As a non-clinician, even she understood that ambulance crews had no desire in becoming martyrs in a jihad...

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2012, 20:23:00 »
I was present when a former DGHS damn near blew an ovary when she discovered that ambulances, with the red crosses concealed, were being armed with C6s. As a non-clinician, even she understood that ambulance crews had no desire in becoming martyrs in a jihad...

Mike - I seriously doubt she had ovaries...

It's a little odd when you look at the US - their air ambulances and their armoured land ambulances don't have defensive MG's on them, even in Iraq or Afghanistan (last I looked anyway, please correct me if more up to date info is out there)...and yes, they're lead magnets.  I seem to recall going through this in 94 when we deployed to Croatia...apparently the 113 ambs had the old Browning GPMG's mounted in 93, then they got taken down in 94.  The story we were told was it gave the silhouette of a combat vehicle because of the gun, so to ensure the bad guys wouldn't try to light us up if they could only see the shape, they decided to take the guns down.  I'd also heard some folks were a little disturbed that one of the callsigns had apparently tried engaging some Croats in Medak with said GPMG.

I got told off for doing air sentry in Kabul on the vehicle I usually rode in -Bison MRT- when we did convoy escorts...was even told so much as to not have my weapon visible and keep my GC crosshairs visbile on my arm (I used to do the opposite) if I wanted to "hang out" in the family hatch.  No names no pack drill...

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2012, 21:27:36 »
I can't recall an M113 Amb being armed. However, it's Afghanistan it would make sense to arm the ambs as the Taliban didn't sign the Geneva conventions. No doubt in my mind that the Red Cross made an excellent aiming mark.

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Offline DiverMedic

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2012, 22:25:27 »

I got told off for doing air sentry in Kabul on the vehicle I usually rode in -Bison MRT- when we did convoy escorts...was even told so much as to not have my weapon visible and keep my GC crosshairs visbile on my arm (I used to do the opposite) if I wanted to "hang out" in the family hatch.  No names no pack drill...

MM

I know I had to get permission to be air sentry in my Bison.  Was actually there for a month before it happened.  Due to decreased manning, I was also air sentry in a LAV and TLAV at times.

We were also told NOT to wear the red crosses outside of KAF or anything medical related (ie: no MEDIC badges or anything with a cross)

DM

Offline BadgerTrapper

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2012, 21:51:53 »
I can't recall an M113 Amb being armed. However, it's Afghanistan it would make sense to arm the ambs as the Taliban didn't sign the Geneva conventions. No doubt in my mind that the Red Cross made an excellent aiming mark.

Aye, I believe I was reading somewhere that Medic's don't tend to wearr any kind of designation, whether it be the Red cross or what have you on their kit when they're outside the wire. Just gives the Taliban a target, with that said. Do any of you currently believe that there will be a rehashing of the ROE for Medical Tech's and such?

(Slight update on my situation for becoming a Med Tech, I'm currently merit listed. Just waiting to hear back in the first week of August as to whether or not I was selected for the Med Tech NCM-SEP. Even if I'm not selected, I'll still take the course then just reapply as a PCP Certified/ Level 1 Firefighter. Here's hoping! *fingers crossed*)

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2012, 21:56:51 »
Do any of you currently believe that there will be a rehashing of the ROE for Medical Tech's and such?



Canada being a signatory to the GCs, we have obligations that you just can't "rehash" because the other guy didn't sign.

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2012, 08:16:12 »
Aye, I believe I was reading somewhere that Medic's don't tend to wearr any kind of designation, whether it be the Red cross or what have you on their kit when they're outside the wire. Just gives the Taliban a target, with that said. Do any of you currently believe that there will be a rehashing of the ROE for Medical Tech's and such?

The ROE are no different - a commander can decide whether or not the GC crosses are visible and protected pers are allowed to carry and use small arms for their protection and the protection of their patients.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2012, 19:37:26 »
Speaking about ROE, I've tried to do as much research as I could but haven't found a definitive answer. When it comes down to CSOR/JTF2 and the medics where do they fall in? As far as I've found the medic plays a supporter role to the operators, but are they right in there with the operators?

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2012, 20:38:31 »
Speaking about ROE, I've tried to do as much research as I could but haven't found a definitive answer. When it comes down to CSOR/JTF2 and the medics where do they fall in? As far as I've found the medic plays a supporter role to the operators, but are they right in there with the operators?



Not really sure what you are going for here,  but they are where they need to be to do their job.   Why are you looking for this info anyways?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 20:53:14 by -Skeletor- »

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2012, 23:04:14 »


Not really sure what you are going for here,  but they are where they need to be to do their job.   Why are you looking for this info anyways?
I've got my application in for Med Tech, and was just curious.

Offline BadgerTrapper

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2012, 16:14:02 »
Hey guys, just an update. I'm about midway through my PCP course as an NCM-SEP. There have been a few questions I've been looking to ask, but since the Detachment I'm based out of doesn't seem to have any Medical Technician's on staff and the school isn't running any AEC courses at the moment. I can't ask them, so here goes for anyone who doesn't mind taking a few minutes of their time.

1.) In terms of medical equipment, what is carried while on a patrol? Part of me highly doubts that a Medical Technician attached to an Infantry unit is carrying an Airway Kit, Med Bag, Trauma Bag and a "First In" bag.

2.) Upon completing my PCP course, I'm off to CFMSS to extend my skill set.  Which skills would I learn that differ from that of a Civilian PCP? I've a third question as well regarding equipment though I've a strong suspicion it'll be answered here.

There it is! If anyone can give me a hand it'd be greatly appreciated! Thanks a lot everyone and happy holidays!  :cdn:

(Something that might be useful, I'm attending the APA (Medavie Healthed) in Moncton.)

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2012, 16:50:21 »
If you have an account for Lightfighter you can see a thread a Canadian Medic did on his CTOMs 1st line pouch and backpack,  lists what he packed, etc

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/376104437?r=464104267#464104267

CTOMS 1st line
Quote
On the front of the pouch, there is three tournequet pouches that will fit either the SOF-T or the CAT. I've seen them been used to carry sidearm mags or even a pistol. (I personally don't sugest this.)

Above the 3 tournequet pouches, there is a pouch designed for gloves. I was able to fit 6 pairs of XL nitrile gloves and my shears. The shears are attached with a shear retractable lanyard from CTOMS.

The pouch can easily fit enough TFC-Bubble supplies to treat 2 minor casualty or 1 major. I could fit more supplies in there, but I want to reduce the weight I carry.

On the Hemorrhage side, I carry 2x 6" Oales, 1x Pk of QuickClot granules and 1x QuickClot Combat Gauze.

On the Airway/Breathing side, I carry a disposable scalpel, 2x NPA, 2x 14G NARP Needles, a prepackaged cric kit, and some gun tape. Also, behind the MARS pannel, I have 2x Lg Tegaderm.


CTOMS 2nd line
Quote
I seperated my kit in 4 modules :

- Hemmorhage
- Airway/Breathing
- Fluid Ressus
- Drugs

All modules are secured in the bag via velcro and can be removed by pulling on the glow in the dark label provide with the bag.

In my Hemmorhage module, I carry equipment to complement my 1st Line Pouch. I used only a Quad Fold for this module.

Content:
- 2x Blast Bandages
- 1x 6" Oales Bandage
- 2x 4" Oales Bandages
- 2x Kerlix
- 2x Combat Gauze
- 1x QuickClot Granules

In my Airway/Breathing module, I carry basic and advanced equipment. I am still waiting to see if the Canadian Forces are going to accept the use of the King LT, if not, I will also put a Combitube in there. I used a MARS Pannel, a Quad Fold and a Book Folder.

Content:
- Premade Cric Kit
- 2x NPA
- 2x OPA
- 2x 14G NARP Needle
- 1x Roll of waterproof tape
- 1x BVM (with NuMask, not shown on pictures)
- 1x Suction (60cc syringe with NPA taped together)
- 1x Acherman Chest Seal

In my Fluid Ressus module I carry enough fluids for 1 major casualty or 2 minor casualty. I used again a MARS Pannel, a Quad Fold and a Book Folder.

Content:
- 4x 18G IV Needles
- 1x Saline Lock
- 1x 3M Transpore Tape
- 1x IV Tournequet
- ETOH Swabs
- Sm Tegaderm
- 1x 500cc NS Bag
- 2x 250cc HSD (RescueFlow)
- 2x 100cc NS Bag
- 2x 10 drops Basic Drip Set
- 2x Secondary Drip Set
- 1x Roll Coban
- 1x Medication Added Label

My Drug module is built with a MARS Pannel, a Quad Fold and a Book Folder. I carry my meds in a prototype MedBox by CTOMS.

Content:
- Syringes (different sizes)
- Needles (different sizes)
- DrugBox
- Sharp Container
- Glucometer
- BP Cuff
- Salbutamol, Ipratropium Bromide and NTG
- ETOH Swabs
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 16:54:38 by -Skeletor- »

Offline BadgerTrapper

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2012, 18:22:33 »
Thanks, Skeletor. Great link, milpoints inbound. All of that looks relatively familiar aside from the HSD which I've had no dealings with whatsoever. Not all that familiar with administration of Hypertonic solutions at this point in time, I'm assuming that's one of the things I'll be taught at CFMSS? As well as the extra medications. Ipratropium Bromide from my understanding is a COPD treatment drug correct, is this the CF application or is there another desired effect? (I know I'm kind of going over my courses head at the moment, but I like to have a decent knowledge of this kind of thing.) Thanks! - BadgerTrapper  :cdn:

Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2012, 22:19:04 »
As well as the extra medications. Ipratropium Bromide from my understanding is a COPD treatment drug correct, is this the CF application or is there another desired effect?

In his Afghan centric trauma oriented bag, I do not know why he is carrying Sabutamol, Atrovent and Nitro. Perhaps he was told it was a good idea by the someone. It is, after all, just an advertisement for CTOMS.

My best hypothesis is that it is for reactive airways as a result of dry heat and dust in the ATO. As for the angina meds; I can't even provide a best guess.

Realistically, as an infantry medic you'd carry items that fit into the MARCHE pneumonic:

Massive Bleeds:
Tourniquets
Dressings: Oales or ER
Packing: QC  or HK gauze

Airway:
NPA
OPA
Whichever blind insertion device youre comfortable with
Cric set (once your qualified to do it)
BVM with mask

Resp:
Halo seals
14 gu angio caths

Circ:
Steth and BP cuff
Pulse Ox
IV initiation set, Saline lock
IV Tubing
2x 500 ml bags of crystaloid
1x bag colloid
Oral rehydration packets

Head/hypothermia:
ENT set (oto & othaloscope set)
Hypothermia kit

Everything else:
Triangular bandages
Tensor bandages
boo-boo kit (band aids, antibiotic cream)
SAM splint
safety pins
suture/staple/skin glue kit
blister kit
Drug kit (based on your scope and AOR)
casualty cards and markers.

Don't get sucked into a company's cool kit and niche of Afghan vets; Not everywhere we go has a helicopter on 30 mins NTM and a level 1 trauma center just a quick radio call away.

"Return with your shield, or upon it."

Offline BadgerTrapper

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Re: Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2012, 23:10:23 »

Cric set (once your qualified to do it)


You mean it's not as easy as sticking a Bic Pen in the Cricothyroid Membrane?  :P

Also, the Salbutamol I can understand if employed to counter possible Asthmatic problems while in the field?

Much appreciated, Rider Pride. That pretty much clears up all my questions in terms of equipment! I assume that is on top of the Combat load and such as well?

Anything in regards to the skill set? BadgerTrapper  :cdn: