Author Topic: Abortion Issues - Mega Thread [MERGED]  (Read 33373 times)

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Offline PMedMoe

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Abortion Issues - Mega Thread [MERGED]
« on: March 21, 2012, 11:52:36 »
So glad I'm not an American (for this and many other reasons):  Abortion Bill: Arizona GOP Legislator Says Women Should Witness Abortions

A Republican state legislator in Arizona reportedly wrote an email to a constituent saying that women should witness an abortion before having an abortion.

The email published on a political blog on the Arizona Republic's website Tuesday is apparently from State Rep. Terri Proud (R-Tucson) and appears to have been sent from a state email, the paper said.

The email was in response to a constituent who said she emailed Proud and fellow lawmakers to let them know she opposed the bill pending in the Legislature that would ban abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy. The site reports that the email is unedited.

"Personally I'd like to make a law that mandates a woman watch an abortion being performed prior to having a "surgical procedure". If it's not a life it shouldn't matter, if it doesn't harm a woman then she shouldn't care, and don't we want more transparency and education in the medical profession anyway? We demand it everywhere else.
Until the dead child can tell me that she/he does not feel any pain - I have no intentions of clearing the conscience of the living - I will be voting YES."

More at link

Link to blog:  http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PoliticalInsider/157762?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter 

Love most of the comments on the blog itself.

I think women should have to witness childbirth before having a baby.  Most would probably not get pregnant.  I know I wouldn't have.   :o

« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 18:23:26 by kratz »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 12:01:12 »
It seems that being a "busybody" is the in thing to do Moe.
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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 19:32:34 »
So glad I'm not an American (for this and many other reasons):  Abortion Bill: Arizona GOP Legislator Says Women Should Witness Abortions

A Republican state legislator in Arizona reportedly wrote an email to a constituent saying that women should witness an abortion before having an abortion.

The email published on a political blog on the Arizona Republic's website Tuesday is apparently from State Rep. Terri Proud (R-Tucson) and appears to have been sent from a state email, the paper said.

The email was in response to a constituent who said she emailed Proud and fellow lawmakers to let them know she opposed the bill pending in the Legislature that would ban abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy. The site reports that the email is unedited.

"Personally I'd like to make a law that mandates a woman watch an abortion being performed prior to having a "surgical procedure". If it's not a life it shouldn't matter, if it doesn't harm a woman then she shouldn't care, and don't we want more transparency and education in the medical profession anyway? We demand it everywhere else.
Until the dead child can tell me that she/he does not feel any pain - I have no intentions of clearing the conscience of the living - I will be voting YES."

More at link

Link to blog:  http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PoliticalInsider/157762?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter 

Love most of the comments on the blog itself.

I think women should have to witness childbirth before having a baby.  Most would probably not get pregnant.  I know I wouldn't have.   :o

It's that or undergo a intravaginal ultrasound.
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 19:43:03 »
Dumbest thing I heard today?


Yep
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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2012, 21:20:35 »
It's that or undergo a intravaginal ultrasound.

Or what?  And to what purpose?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 21:30:06 »
Or what?  And to what purpose?

New rules in Texas.  Women must undergo an intravaginal ultrasound with the doctor describing in detail everything he or she sees, then the woman must wait 24 hours before receiving an abortion.

This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2012, 21:31:52 »
New rules in Texas.  Women must undergo an intravaginal ultrasound with the doctor describing in detail everything he or she sees, then the woman must wait 24 hours before receiving an abortion.

For a country that proclaims separation of church and state this sounds like something right out of the Bible.
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Offline GAP

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2012, 21:36:40 »
For a country that proclaims separation of church and state this sounds like something right out of the Bible extremist pulpit.

other than the location, I'd agree.....
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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2012, 21:40:56 »
New rules in Texas.  Women must undergo an intravaginal ultrasound with the doctor describing in detail everything he or she sees, then the woman must wait 24 hours before receiving an abortion.

I have to say, as invasive as that procedure is, it wouldn't stop me if I had good reasons for wanting an abortion.

All this crap is going to do is revert the U.S. right back to women going to shady offices in back alleys to unlicensed practitioners and putting their health and lives in jeopardy.
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Offline medicineman

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2012, 21:43:21 »
For a country that proclaims separation of church and state this sounds like something right out of the Bible.

We're not much different here Jim - teaching or providing of contraception in most of Canada was illegal until the early 30's...and was prohibited to even be mentioned in medical schools in Quebec until the 50's.  Problem is the laws were/are written by and for God fearing folks...it'll never really be truly seperated.

 :2c:

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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2012, 23:53:39 »
For a country that proclaims separation of church and state this sounds like something right out of the Bible.

That's what I'm thinking too. So much for Roe versus Wade.

Being that they pay for this there, those who live close to state borders and who can travel 'outside' for abortions - will. Those in the inner-cities, poor etc, who can't afford to will sit through this procedure and wait their 24 hours ... others will simply resort to consorting with those non-official backroom guys once again and those increased deaths that go along with it.

Way to time warp themselves back to the dark ages.
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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2012, 04:58:07 »
I hate to go against the grain here, but there are some of us who believe, as a result of logical process and not because of blind adherence to some fire breathing minister's ranting, that human life, independent human life, begins at conception. This makes this a human rights issue, not one of mystical faith.  .
So, talk all you will about oppression of women. I for the life of me cannot accept that I was NOT a human being from the time I was conceived. Don't worry, I'm not going to further the argument, but I just had to point out that although it appears to be popular opinion, not every one finds it dumb.  And not because "my pope told me to think this way".

Full disclosure here, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic.  But I wasn't always.  Even when I wasn't, when I thought it was just a bunch of "blah blah" by old men out of touch with reality, I still could not come to a logical point other than conception when human life began. 


Okay, you can ban me, complain about me, or delete this post because I'm such a dark age neanderthal. 

(Edited slightly for typos and context)

EDIT AGAIN:  Damn, I forgot.  I couldn't care less if you use contraceptives.  Just in case you thought I was obsessed with your sex lives.  I couldn't care less.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 05:14:46 by Technoviking »
So, there I was....

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2012, 06:26:42 »
I hate to go against the grain here, but there are some of us who believe, as a result of logical process and not because of blind adherence to some fire breathing minister's ranting, that human life, independent human life, begins at conception. This makes this a human rights issue, not one of mystical faith.  .
So, talk all you will about oppression of women. I for the life of me cannot accept that I was NOT a human being from the time I was conceived. Don't worry, I'm not going to further the argument, but I just had to point out that although it appears to be popular opinion, not every one finds it dumb.  And not because "my pope told me to think this way".

Full disclosure here, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic.  But I wasn't always.  Even when I wasn't, when I thought it was just a bunch of "blah blah" by old men out of touch with reality, I still could not come to a logical point other than conception when human life began. 


Okay, you can ban me, complain about me, or delete this post because I'm such a dark age neanderthal. 

(Edited slightly for typos and context)

EDIT AGAIN:  Damn, I forgot.  I couldn't care less if you use contraceptives.  Just in case you thought I was obsessed with your sex lives.  I couldn't care less.

None of that excuses the idea of forcing women seeking to terminate their pregnancy to be subjected to unnecessary, invasive procedures. Nor does it excuse a law passed by the Arizona Senate that essentially allows doctors who oppose abortion to lie to women about situations which may lead them to choose to abort.

By your argument, given how many fertilized embryos fail to implant, I've seen a tongue-in-cheek argument made that god is the greatest abortionist of all. However, I also could rack that up on this board of dumb things. The reality is that while the definition of life may well be debated, but the law of the land in most cases makes clear that it's birth. I don't think any woman can (let alone should) be forced to carry a pregnancy to term that for any reason whatsoever she does not want. It's that simple. If there's no access to legal, safe abortion, then women will seek solutions elsewhere, regardless of the potential costs. It's really that simple. I hope that these laws blow up in the faces of those who pushed them.
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2012, 06:38:16 »
I hate to go against the grain here, but there are some of us who believe, as a result of logical process and not because of blind adherence to some fire breathing minister's ranting, that human life, independent human life, begins at conception. This makes this a human rights issue, not one of mystical faith.  .
So, talk all you will about oppression of women. I for the life of me cannot accept that I was NOT a human being from the time I was conceived. Don't worry, I'm not going to further the argument, but I just had to point out that although it appears to be popular opinion, not every one finds it dumb.  And not because "my pope told me to think this way".

Full disclosure here, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic.  But I wasn't always.  Even when I wasn't, when I thought it was just a bunch of "blah blah" by old men out of touch with reality, I still could not come to a logical point other than conception when human life began. 


Okay, you can ban me, complain about me, or delete this post because I'm such a dark age neanderthal. 

(Edited slightly for typos and context)

EDIT AGAIN:  Damn, I forgot.  I couldn't care less if you use contraceptives.  Just in case you thought I was obsessed with your sex lives.  I couldn't care less.

OK, so for you - that's your religious view and logical process. Don't have an abortion. Quite simple really. I can't make you have one either.

So, if it's not my religious view nor logical conclusion, why make me follow yours?

You can can call me illogical, uneducated, what the heck you wish, but last time I checked, you weren't God nor the boss of me, my body, my decisions.

I'll respect you logic (opinion!), religion and physical being ... please respect mine. What's the problem with that?
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2012, 07:56:02 »
I for the life of me cannot accept that I was NOT a human being from the time I was conceived.
Now there's that blind mythical faith -- some of us don't yet accept that you're a human being.   :whistle:

    ;D


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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 10:07:17 »
I hate to go against the grain here, but there are some of us who believe, as a result of logical process and not because of blind adherence to some fire breathing minister's ranting, that human life, independent human life, begins at conception. This makes this a human rights issue, not one of mystical faith.  .
So, talk all you will about oppression of women. I for the life of me cannot accept that I was NOT a human being from the time I was conceived. Don't worry, I'm not going to further the argument, but I just had to point out that although it appears to be popular opinion, not every one finds it dumb.  And not because "my pope told me to think this way".

Full disclosure here, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic.  But I wasn't always.  Even when I wasn't, when I thought it was just a bunch of "blah blah" by old men out of touch with reality, I still could not come to a logical point other than conception when human life began. 


Okay, you can ban me, complain about me, or delete this post because I'm such a dark age neanderthal. 

(Edited slightly for typos and context)

EDIT AGAIN:  Damn, I forgot.  I couldn't care less if you use contraceptives.  Just in case you thought I was obsessed with your sex lives.  I couldn't care less.

You're a brave man right enuff ..... but, to the rest of you:  What he sez.  And that from a non-practicing Presbyterian.

Having said that:  It is always your decision - regardless of morals, ethics, laws, rules and regulations.  And nobody ever can take that away from you, right or wrong.

And by the way JM:  every now and then he demonstrates the ability to count (but so do some chimpanzees).
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Offline ballz

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2012, 10:27:31 »
OK, so for you - that's your religious view and logical process. Don't have an abortion. Quite simple really. I can't make you have one either.

So, if it's not my religious view nor logical conclusion, why make me follow yours?

You can can call me illogical, uneducated, what the heck you wish, but last time I checked, you weren't God nor the boss of me, my body, my decisions.

I'll respect you logic (opinion!), religion and physical being ... please respect mine. What's the problem with that?

Sorry TV, I know you can speak for yourself...

Because from his point of view, abortion is murdering another human being. You wouldn't expect your argument, "I don't believe murder is wrong, so don't force your belief that it's wrong on me by making a law against it and putting me in jail if I murder someone," to hold weight.

Christopher Hitchens, one of the most proud atheists to ever live, was also against abortion for the same reasons. It sure wasn't because he was brainwashed by religion to think so.

And also to provide full disclosure, I'm an agnostic rationalist and I'm pro-choice and pro-contraception.

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2012, 10:48:59 »
My two cents:

Abortions should be safe, available and rare.

Giving people resources to avoid the requirement to seek an abortion should be the first LoO - information on reproduction and availability of contraceptive systems (meds, devices etc).
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
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http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2012, 10:52:03 »
My two cents:

Abortions should be safe, available and rare.

Giving people resources to avoid the requirement to seek an abortion should be the first LoO - information on reproduction and availability of contraceptive systems (meds, devices etc).

 :goodpost:

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Offline frank1515

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2012, 10:58:12 »
Lets keep it simple...

Let the people decide. If a woman wants an abortion, who are we to to tell her she is not allowed? You might not agree with such practise, but it does not affect you directly. If you disagree with such practise, don't practise it!

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Offline ballz

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2012, 10:58:38 »
My two cents:

Abortions should be safe, available and rare.

Giving people resources to avoid the requirement to seek an abortion should be the first LoO - information on reproduction and availability of contraceptive systems (meds, devices etc).

Agreed... but in the US the GOP who are pretty much all against abortions are also against contraception, and even more are against paying for someone else's contraception.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2012, 11:02:36 »
:goodpost:

Is it possible to obviate the need for abortions by better supporting the mothers?

It is not as if we don't have the need for more Canadians.  Nor is the problem a lack of resources to support both the mothers and the children.

Is there any need to stigmatize an unwed mother who is pregnant?  Is there no way to support a young woman in her career aspirations even if she has become pregnant?

Why do women feel they have to have abortions?  Are there really no other alternatives?

And I'm not being the devil's advocate here I really want to know.

Some years ago I had a conversation with my daughter and let her know that no matter what happened she would never have to worry about making that decision.  Her mother and father would support her and her child no matter what.  Abortion should not be necessary.

And having said that, if she chose to have an abortion, she would still be our daughter and have our support.
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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2012, 11:15:34 »
Why do women feel they have to have abortions?  Are there really no other alternatives?

I can think of several reasons:

Medical problems

Rape and/or incest

Age (whether too young or too old)

Mental status

Emotional state

As you can see, the reasons vary as much as people do.  I don't agree with abortion as a contraceptive, however, if a woman is using birth control and also uses a condom (practice safe sex!) and still gets pregnant (yes, rare, I know), obviously, she did not intend to get pregnant and should have the right to terminate the pregnancy if she so wishes.  I (personally) think abortions should be done as soon as possible and do not agree (again personally) with late term abortions.

In some cases, the woman is just not ready, whether it is emotionally, financially or mentally.

Agree on your other points for support.

Agreed... but in the US the GOP who are pretty much all against abortions are also against contraception, and even more are against paying for someone else's contraception.

I wonder what their stance is on a tubal ligation or a hysterectomy?
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Offline NSDreamer

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2012, 11:29:25 »
OK, so for you - that's your religious view and logical process. Don't have an abortion. Quite simple really. I can't make you have one either.

So, if it's not my religious view nor logical conclusion, why make me follow yours?

You can can call me illogical, uneducated, what the heck you wish, but last time I checked, you weren't God nor the boss of me, my body, my decisions.

I'll respect you logic (opinion!), religion and physical being ... please respect mine. What's the problem with that?


 See, you're making an arguement without accepting his premise. If he believes his premise is correct-> Fetus/Embryo etc does represent a VALID human person. Then in his view that person should be entitled to the same rights as any other person via their charter rights.  IE 7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

 If you accept his premise it, the arguement isn't that it's the woman's right to have the abortion, but that instead it's state sanctioned murder of an individual. On this basis, and accepting this premise, it's easily agreeable that abortion would be wrong.

The debate, in my mind, is where you define that that embryo becomes a person. Is it at conception?

Something relatively witty.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2012, 11:48:42 »
I can think of several reasons:

Medical problems

Rape and/or incest

Age (whether too young or too old)

Mental status

Emotional state


Moe: I can accept most of your caveats most of the time but even there, there is room to quibble over details - case dependent.

I will clearly state that if it comes to a toss up between sacrificing the daughter I know and the grandchild I haven't met then I would encourage my daughter to sacrifice her child and my grandchild.

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