Author Topic: Class Action Suit against NVC & "Govt has no obligation to soldiers"  (Read 197483 times)

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Offline Teager

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2013, 13:29:23 »
This is just a tactic to delay the process. If its not striked down then there forced to respond immediatley. I'm willing to bet that there arguments are going to be pretty weak and we'll be granted a class action suit.

Offline Nemo888

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2013, 15:30:15 »
“The Defendant submits that none of the claims asserted by the Representative Plaintiffs constitutes a reasonable claim, that the claims are frivolous or vexatious, and accordingly that they should be struck out in their entirety.”

You would think they were deliberately trying to get us upset. My response cannot be printed here. I expect this will be like the equal pay suit all over again.

The next time your CO sends you into harms way tell him his orders are frivolous and vexatious. Unlimited liability is a one way street it seems.


Offline George Wallace

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2013, 15:46:07 »
Quote
“The Plaintiffs allege that the amounts they received under their claims are inadequate
and substandard. They allege that the provisions of the legislation treat some disabled
veterans less generously than the formerly applicable provisions of the Pension Act,
(“the former legislation”) and that the provisions of the legislation do not accord with the
heads of damages or amount of damages which Superior Courts or provincial Workers
Compensation
legislation might award for “analogous personal injuries”.”


Here is a "good idea faerie" question:  With the Government making such drastic cuts to the Public Civil Service, would this not indicate that the complete dismissal and dismantling the Dept of Veterans Affairs as being a redundant and useless organization, more fittingly replaced by a Federal Workman's Compensation Board?  If all claims going to VAC are initially refused "on principal", what is the use of them, other than adding more stress to the lives of injured Service members?
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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2013, 15:57:55 »
The Gov't has responded;

http://equitassociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Equitas-Society-June-2013-Update-Newsletter.pdf


Not very nice of them either
And this is, in part, why the lawyers get sooooo much money when the litigation gets settled ....
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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2013, 22:15:30 »
Good Luck to anyone, and everyone participating in this fight. I will email my MP now. And again tomorrow. And again the next day.
This is awful.

Keep your head up

Offline Teager

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2013, 11:14:05 »
Here is the response to the plaintiffs argument. Court will continue on July 22-24 2013

http://equitassociety.ca/?page_id=1006

Offline Wookilar

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2013, 13:05:05 »
I'm certainly no lawyer, but it seems to me that they have taken a very logical view of how to disagree with the Crown's allegations that the suit is "vexatious." (boy didn't that response cheese me off)
Why are there swamps on top of hills?

Offline Teager

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2013, 10:36:25 »
The latest media update.

Quote
Chris Lane, CTV British Columbia
Published Monday, July 22, 2013 6:06PM PDT
Last Updated Monday, July 22, 2013 6:11PM PDT
The federal government is asking a BC Supreme Court judge to strike down a class-action lawsuit filed by six war veterans over disability compensation.

The disabled veterans are challenging a pension program introduced in 2006, which the soldiers say violates their human rights with insufficient and arbitrary disability payments.

Veteran pensions previously fell under the Pension Act, before the New Veterans Charter was signed off seven years ago to establish more veteran-specific regulations.

Related Stories
Afghanistan war vets file class-action suit against federal government Kevin Berry, one of the plaintiffs named in the lawsuit, contends that the benefits are 40 to 90 per cent worse under the new rules, and are weaker than provincial compensation plans.

The federal government argues the soldiers’ concerns should not be dealt with by the courts. They say the veterans should lobby MPs instead to change the legislation.

“They’re telling us that you can’t sue us because you’re veterans, you’re not entitled to equal compensation because you’re veterans,” said Berry.

“We’re not going to stand for that.”

Jim Scott, whose son Daniel is another one of the six disabled soldiers in the class-action suit, said the court case will determine what power soldiers have to negotiate their pensions.

“What we’re here to do today is to establish whether soldiers have fundamental rights under the Charter … and whether the government owes them a duty of care,” said Scott.

The court hearing will continue Tuesday and Wednesday.



Read more: http://bc.ctvnews.ca/veterans-suing-government-over-disability-pensions-1.1378991#ixzz2ZyQqSkaR

Offline Teager

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2013, 11:33:28 »
Here is a site that tells how the first day of court went on July 22nd 2013. This is probably going to piss a lot of people off considering one of the points says "The crown also argued that Canada has no obligations to provide any benefits to Veterans."

See link for more details.

http://canadianveteran011.blogspot.ca/2013/07/veterans-suing-government-over.html
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 13:18:32 by Teager »

Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2013, 13:32:51 »
Just...wow.  You're welcome, Canada.  There needs to be a week long CAF version of "blue flu", shut the whole thing down.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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Offline Teager

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2013, 21:18:17 »
Its funny how we sign a contract of unlimited liability and even fight in defence of the crown. Now the crown is simply washing its hands of us and is now trying to defend itself from us. I never thought I would see the day where the government in court would actualy say they don't owe veterans anything. This has to be one of the biggest kicks in the pants for any serving member past, present, and future not to mention a major blow to moral.

It begs the question that if the government doesn't have our back at all why do we have theres? I totally agree with Kat shut the whole thing down for a week.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2013, 21:56:15 »
Just...wow.  You're welcome, Canada.  There needs to be a week long CAF version of "blue flu", shut the whole thing down.

Our elected representatives need to step up and tell the PM to stop this. Of course, the MPs won't - we all know they are  pretty  much whipped puppies and will do whatever they are told to do.

If it comes to pass that the Government of Canada owes us nothing and the courts affirm this, I see two COAs for me:

1. Resign effective immediately. Wait for one day post release, then blast the people of Canada, who are in fact the government, for letting this happen; or

2. Stay and attempt to make I better for younger ones.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2013, 22:14:57 »
Our elected representatives need to step up and tell the PM to stop this. Of course, the MPs won't - we all know they are  pretty  much whipped puppies and will do whatever they are told to do.

If it comes to pass that the Government of Canada owes us nothing and the courts affirm this, I see two COAs for me:



So true.  They don't give a damn about the CAF, RCMP, Public Servants, nor John Q Public.  They do give a damn if it affects their pockets.

Case in point:  Senate passed the Bill bringing in the GST, only after they amended it  to give themselves "GST Exempt" cards (like Treaty Cards).  Now this is the BS that we live with. 
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2013, 22:31:44 »
Very hypocritical of the government, whatever party is in power.

I am very saddened by the attitude that " oh by the way that 'social contract' thing we talked about? Well we really don't have to follow it, and besides, you should have saved some money while you were serving because we have NONE FOR YOU NOW. And don't you all have families that can take care of you? Ok, by by til the next time we need some suckers.....I mean soldiers"

What is it going to take? Maybe the CDS resigning and making a statement that this COA the government is pursuing is unacceptable?

Do not hold your breath.

This is not the Canada I know. The Canada I know is not perfect, but at least that Canada attempts to help.

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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2013, 22:34:40 »
Case in point:  Senate passed the Bill bringing in the GST, only after they amended it  to give themselves "GST Exempt" cards (like Treaty Cards). 

Don't forget the Federal government's discount on alcohol in Ontario: LCBO’s new ‘simplified pricing formula’ gives diplomats, federal government 49% discount on booze
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Offline MJP

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2013, 22:49:31 »
So true.  They don't give a damn about the CAF, RCMP, Public Servants, nor John Q Public.  They do give a damn if it affects their pockets.

Case in point:  Senate passed the Bill bringing in the GST, only after they amended it  to give themselves "GST Exempt" cards (like Treaty Cards).  Now this is the BS that we live with.

Unless you can "show me the money I am calling BS on your claim.  Don't get me wrong I dislike the response as well but lets not colour this topic with half truths and straw man arguments

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/myths/#m6
Myth # 6
Some individuals claim to be exempt from GST/HST. Some carry a card to "prove" their claim.

The Facts

GST/HST legislation does not provide tax exemptions for any individuals, and any card claiming such an exemption is a fraud. However, individuals with Indian status under the Indian Act may not be required to pay GST/HST on the purchase of goods and services under certain conditions. (For details, see Publication B-039 GST/HST administrative policy - Application of the GST/HST to Indians.)

Some consumers think that falsely claiming an "exemption" is an effective protest against taxes or a government. In fact, any resulting discount they receive is at the expense of the vendor. Vendors must remit tax on all taxable transactions, even if they have mistakenly failed to collect the GST/HST from an individual falsely claiming an exemption.

You may sometimes be led to believe that you are not paying GST/HST because a vendor may promote a sale by advertising "Pay no GST" or other similar claims. The vendor in these cases discounts the price so that the final, tax-inclusive cost is the same as the advertised, pre-tax price.
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline Teager

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2013, 09:45:59 »
Alright so what happened in court over the last two days has been posted. The Crown conceded that Canada has to provide care and compensation for Canadian Veterans and does this through the NVC. So now they are doing some back peddaling.

Here is the link to the last 3 days of court. I don't know when a decision will be handed down for a class action.

http://www.canadianveteransadvocacy.com/blog/

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2013, 09:55:00 »
This is not the Canada I know. The Canada I know is not perfect, but at least that Canada attempts to help.

You are right, it's not the Canada you know,.....it's a courtroom where lies, half-truths and general weaselship got flung together, stirred up and eventually, hopefully, a half decent desicion can be made from all that.  It's nothing but negotiation and you always start from a postition that puts the other side "off".

What did you expect them to start with,...."We were wrong and we're sorry"?

[it would have been nice in this case] :nod:
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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2013, 10:16:20 »
<broken record>
If there was a solution that would compensate wounded/disabled vets in a way that most people would consider fairly, and cost ZERO extra bucks, it would have been implemented.  As long as it would cost more to do this, there's no political appetite for it to happen, no matter WHICH party is in power.

Also, when it comes to making things happen if politicians want them to happen ........
All we need is a Minister (or higher) to stand up and say, "the rules must change, and they will change".  After all, we've seen other instances where a Minister wants something (examples here, here, here, here, here and - even if it's not entirely within government rules - here), and it happens pretty quickly.  While the bureaucrats may be partly to blame re:  how they wield their discretion, if the rules were changed properly, the bureaucrats would have less wiggle room (or have to wiggle in a different direction).

Hey, I can dream, can't I?   ;)
not to mention this most recent example.

If the politicians really want these changes, they will happen.  It would cost waaaaaaaaaay more treasure than they're willing to spend, though, so it's not happening.  Changing branch names and ribbons/bows/pins are cheap compared to what it would cost to overhaul how wounded/disabled vets are compensated, so you get different branch names, and ribbons/bows/pins.

My  :2c:
</broken record>

Also, when it's in the courts, the Government will fight from the (unspoken) "we'll fight as long as a court doesn't say we have to change things" position. 

Finally, when it comes to setting a precedent, we have the words of the Honourable James Hacker, "You mean that if we do the right thing this time, we might have to do the right thing again next time?"
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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2013, 10:28:54 »
Im fully aware that I dont know much about this, as I have barely, barely, scratched the surface with these forums and links within them.
As a new recruit I try to maintain my faith in 'the system' and recall all the reasons why Canada is the best country in the world. Trying to tell my self that the Govt always has its citizens at heart...while reading that the Crown doesnt owe its veterans anything is incredibly discouraging. I wont allow it to change who I am, or how I feel about the nation that has provided me such a wonderful life.

I will continue to exercise my democratic right afforded to me by the veterans, that the crown owes nothing to... and bombard MPP Lisa McLeod and MP John Baird making sure they know I, and the members of my community, will not accept political representation that does not support the Canadian Veteran.

Good luck

Offline kratz

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2013, 10:37:08 »
or the court argument was a classic "trial balloon" to gauge the reaction of current members.

The Federal government did slide the new VAC in under the radar, so this might have gone unnoticed as well.
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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2013, 21:23:44 »
or the court argument was a classic "trial balloon" to gauge the reaction of current members.
Most government trial balloons tend to be "shared" with media and attributed to "anonymous sources", not generally shared under oath in court.
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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2013, 21:52:46 »

Here is a "good idea faerie" question: dismantling the Dept of Veterans Affairs as being a redundant and useless organization, more fittingly replaced by a Federal Workman's Compensation Board?  If all claims going to VAC are initially refused "on principal", what is the use of them, other than adding more stress to the lives of injured Service members?

Workman's Compensation  Workplace Safety and Insurance Board TFTFY.   >:DPlease be careful what you wish for. I sincerely hope that no-one reading this has the misfortune to deal with its Ontario Provincial Counterpart.  Has a nasty reputation for aiding the employer and I suppose I should say "Hindering" the injured party.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2013, 22:13:37 »
Can't really wish for much in today's climate.   Not one of the various organizations is likely to do the job to anyone's satisfaction.  All the plans are 'money pits'.
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Re: Class Action Suit against NVC
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2013, 07:03:36 »
Here is a site that tells how the first day of court went on July 22nd 2013. This is probably going to piss a lot of people off considering one of the points says "The crown also argued that Canada has no obligations to provide any benefits to Veterans."

See link for more details.

http://canadianveteran011.blogspot.ca/2013/07/veterans-suing-government-over.html
The media finally catches up here:
Quote
Lawyers for the federal government are asking a British Columbia judge to dismiss a class-action lawsuit filed by current and former soldiers injured in Canada's combat mission in Afghanistan, saying Ottawa owes them nothing more than what they have already received under its controversial New Veterans Charter.

The lawsuit filed last fall by six veterans claims that the new charter, and the changes it brought to the compensation regime for Canadian Forces members, violates the constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

That claim is "unnecessary, frivolous or vexatious or otherwise an abuse of process," argue lawyers for the federal Attorney General, who were in B.C. Supreme Court last week asking a judge to dismiss the case.

"In support of their claim, the representative plaintiffs assert the existence of a 'social covenant,' a public law duty, and a fiduciary duty on the part of the federal government," Jasvinder S. Basran, the regional director general for the federal Justice Department, said in an application filed with the court.

The lawsuit invokes the "honour of the Crown," a concept that has been argued in aboriginal rights claims.

"The defendant submits that none of the claims asserted by the representative plaintiffs constitutes a reasonable claim, that the claims are frivolous or vexatious, and accordingly that they should be struck out in their entirety." ....
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