Author Topic: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded  (Read 25549 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 212,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,948
Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« on: May 01, 2013, 13:57:52 »
Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
Potential cuts to the program could mean cadets' glider days are numbered
CBC News Posted: Apr 29, 2013
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/04/29/ns-air-cadet-glider-program.html

Potential cuts to the Air Cadet Gliding Program could mean the days of soaring cadets are coming to an end.

In Department of National Defence emails obtained by the CBC, the department proposes cuts to the Air Cadet Gliding Program, saying the “ACGP has become the primary target for cost reductions within the cadet program."

The email says the decision to close the glider program "will come as a complete surprise."

"This is indeed a dark day for the Air Cadet Program," it says. For many young cadets, the gliding program gave them their first taste of flight.

The memos make it clear that the decision to cut the glider program is only being considered at this time, but that the program is viewed as unaffordable by leadership in the Canadian Forces.

The program could be cancelled across the country as early as next year.
more on link
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Offline exgunnertdo

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 12,145
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 305
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2013, 14:21:31 »
 :(  My 12 year old has just started Air Cadets, and hasn't even been up in a glider yet.  He can't wait to get into ground school...I sure hope they don't cut it.
"Leave the Artillerymen alone, they are an obstinate lot. . ."
"God fights on the side with the best artillery"
- Napoleon

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 448,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,441
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2013, 14:25:44 »
:(  My 12 year old has just started Air Cadets, and hasn't even been up in a glider yet.  He can't wait to get into ground school...I sure hope they don't cut it.

Then what should the CF cut instead?  Or are you willing to pay a higher rate of tax (income tax or sales tax) to support it?
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Jammer

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 14,000
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,023
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2013, 14:28:13 »
Glider program will not be cut.
What could possibly go wrong?

Offline Occam

    Go RRRRRRRREDBLACKS!

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 93,375
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,008
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2013, 14:36:42 »
Cancelling the ACGP would be a damn shame.  Col Chris Hadfield got his early taste for flight courtesy of the gliding program...and it's easy to see where that went.

Offline Chernoble

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -3,180
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 50
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 14:48:19 »
Then what should the CF cut instead?  Or are you willing to pay a higher rate of tax (income tax or sales tax) to support it?

For this program and many other cadet type programs, I would pay more tax.  Or just divert my part of the tax that goes to Welfare and EI abuse.
"Always fight, always win! The only unfair fight is the one you lose!"

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 208,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,933
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 18:23:45 »
Glider program will not be cut.

Like Jammer noted, ACGP will still be supported.

Statement by the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence: NR – 13.130 - May 1, 2013

Quote
OTTAWA - The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, issued the following statement concerning the Cadet Program:

“Cadet organizations across Canada play an important role in promoting good citizenship, leadership, community service and physical fitness among young Canadians.  I believe in the merits of this program and the benefits it provides to Canadian communities are unparalleled.  In fact, the Cadet Program is the best youth development program in Canada. As I informed the House of Commons, "I can assure the House that the Cadet Program will continue to enjoy the important use of gliders."  There are to be no reductions in resources allocated to the Cadet glider program or any Cadet Program. The Cadet Program is here to stay.”


Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 220,952
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,129
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 18:37:39 »
Then what should the CF cut instead?  Or are you willing to pay a higher rate of tax (income tax or sales tax) to support it?

How about the Snowbirds or Skyhawks,....or numerous staff that seem to inhabit areas around Ottawa.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 220,952
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,129
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
I note the sarcasm, but be careful what you wish for:

CBC.ca

I do believe MND stepped in and stopped it cold.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Jed

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,830
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,101
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2013, 19:16:24 »
For this program and many other cadet type programs, I would pay more tax.  Or just divert my part of the tax that goes to Welfare and EI abuse.

Exactly, cutting these programs that provide support to the youth and the future leadership of the country should be well below the priority of money wasted on EI abuse and such.
As the old man used to say: " I used to be a coyote, but I'm alright nooooOOOOWWW!"

Offline dcs

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,555
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 55
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2013, 19:28:03 »
They have lots of other things  that they should look at for potential cost reduction.   I believe that salaries of staff align quite closely if not entirely with reg force.   Having been involved with the Air Cadets, it always bothered me that an individual who had limited training and  was given the rank that reg force takes years to achieve with the same or similar hourly/daily pay rate. 

Cadets leave and at least in the one I was involved, little or no effort is taken to recover uniforms/boots etc.   CO was then successful in going and getting additional funds... rewarded for not for not doing his job.  Sons in reg force inform me that they have to turn back all uniforms and all are tracked.   Cadets at least from my experience ofter do not.   

Oldest son did glider and power and now pilot with the forces.  A great organization, that would benefit from a review and a review of individual squadrons and COs.   His first CO was outstanding and he still stays in touch with her and is proud to salute her.  The later one, not the same to say the least.

Offline kratz

    Spring is still hiding under the covers.

  • Float, Move, Fight
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 261,563
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,289
Great news if the MND did step in.
I had not heard of that. Thank you.
Quote from: Pipe *General Call*
"Tanning Stations on the flight deck"


Remember, this site is unofficial and privately owned. The site benefits from the presence of current members willing to answer questions.

Offline CRMA

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 7,800
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 290
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 19:31:31 »
Last time I was in cadets, CIC officers received 80% of the pay of Regular Force, the same as any reserve component, and get paid  I believe a maximum of 28 days in the year... The rest of that is completely volunteer time, including all the additional gas they incur to travel, and any extra time off they have to take from work.

Just like the regular force, their are **** birds in the CIC. But the majority of them are hard working underpaid volunteers, who specialize in training and supervising kids. Its a worthy investment.

Offline GnyHwy

  • is a pragmatic optimist.
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 37,035
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,372
  • GO GUNS!!!
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 20:01:04 »
Removing the end state of a program negates everything that leads up to it.

 

Offline Ditch

  • Established 1998
  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 27,802
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,400
  • I routinely step in it, but like conflict...
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 20:09:40 »
and get paid  I believe a maximum of 28 days in the year...
That is only related to what work they did at their home squadron.  COATs personnel get offered B Class contracts for the summer to conduct cadet training.  There is no limit on how many days when it comes to full time summer work - I believe that this is what may be on the chopping block.  The cadets will continue to glide - just might not have as many CIC staff employed to do it.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline PAdm

  • Member
  • ****
  • 5,700
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 157
  • Death - Death by tray...
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2013, 20:17:11 »
When faced with budget cuts, the RCAF is no longer allowed to threaten to shut down the Snowbirds as a cost saving measure (knowing the Gov would never permit it). Maybe the glider program is the new hollow threat...   ;)

While the glider program is as much of a target as anything, I always scratch my head when we even think of cutting programs for youth.
Cheers,
PAdm

Offline PAdm

  • Member
  • ****
  • 5,700
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 157
  • Death - Death by tray...
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2013, 20:20:12 »
Exactly, cutting these programs that provide support to the youth and the future leadership of the country should be well below the priority of money wasted on EI abuse and such.

Well said. Cadets, run properly, should be seen as an investment in our future.
Cheers,
PAdm

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 220,952
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,129
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2013, 20:21:13 »
When faced with budget cuts, the RCAF is no longer allowed to threaten to shut down the Snowbirds as a cost saving measure (knowing the Gov would never permit it). Maybe the glider program is the new hollow threat...   ;)

While the glider program is as much of a target as anything, I always scratch my head when we even think of cutting programs for youth.

How much does the glider program really cost the CF?
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline CRMA

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 7,800
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 290
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2013, 20:45:34 »
I am pretty sure the gliders and Tow planes are owned and maintained by the Air Cadet League of Canada.

 The cost is probably for the staffing of the Glider program during the regular year, as well as the cost of the Summer program which would include R&Q, plus stipend for the cadets, as well as R&Q plus pay for the Staff Cadets and Officers.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 220,952
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,129
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2013, 20:50:33 »
I am pretty sure the gliders and Tow planes are owned and maintained by the Air Cadet League of Canada.

 The cost is probably for the staffing of the Glider program during the regular year, as well as the cost of the Summer program which would include R&Q, plus stipend for the cadets, as well as R&Q plus pay for the Staff Cadets and Officers.

So, if I read this correctly, what the CF spends on the good program is peanuts in terms of overall spending.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 448,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,441
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2013, 21:46:33 »
What the CF spends on just about everything is peanuts.

The problem is that all the peanuts add up.

So anything that's cut is "peanuts".


Want to save money?  Consolidate bases.  Oh, sorry, not allowed to hurt the economy of those locations.  Shut down non-core functions. Not allowed to do that either.  So we end up eroding a bit of everything to protect high profile, limited use functions - or some flavours of the day.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Alex10370

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,260
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 32
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2013, 22:38:48 »
To clarify, the gliders themselves are owned by the air cadet league of Canada and the insurance for them is also through the air cadet league.  The military provides maintenance personelle and CIC officers to staff the various gliding institutions. 

If you ask me the air cadet program would lose a HUGE number of cadets should they cut this program and I definatley think there is much more than can be looked at in so far as cost cutting is concerned in the cadet program. 

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 220,952
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,129
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2013, 22:51:20 »
What the CF spends on just about everything is peanuts.

The problem is that all the peanuts add up.

So anything that's cut is "peanuts".


Want to save money?  Consolidate bases.  Oh, sorry, not allowed to hurt the economy of those locations.  Shut down non-core functions. Not allowed to do that either.  So we end up eroding a bit of everything to protect high profile, limited use functions - or some flavours of the day.

Preaching to the converted.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 919,220
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,163
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2013, 23:05:09 »
If I can't get ammo to do IBTS training, why do cadets get gliders? Yep, cadet is great for the youth, and the training is still valuable even without a glider program. Army and Navy cadets are doing just fine without one.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 220,952
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,129
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Air Cadet glider program may be grounded
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2013, 23:06:42 »
Removing the end state of a program negates everything that leads up to it.

 

There's your answer. Take away gliders, Air Cadets will dwindle.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".