Author Topic: Naval Ensign  (Read 50607 times)

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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Naval Ensign
« on: May 02, 2013, 20:09:54 »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/05/02/ns-navy-flag-ensign.html

After 48 years, the Royal Canadian Navy will be flying a new flag.

The new ensign will debut on May 5, marking the anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic, a time when the navy and Canadians salute the sacrifices of sailors during the Second World War.

Since 1965, the Canadian maple leaf flag has flown off the stern of Canadian warships. The new design harkens back to the wartime navy. Back then, the naval ensign had a British flag in the upper corner on an all-white background.

In a reversal, the flag known as the Naval Jack will become the new Canadian naval ensign and the maple leaf design will become the new Naval Jack.

The new naval ensign incorporates the national flag in the upper left hand corner and the naval badge.

The navy said the switch doesn't mean they’ll scrap the maple leaf flag. Previously the ensign flag was displayed on the bow of Canadian warships, a less prominent position in navy protocol.

The new ensign will fly on 34 Canadian warships. The first ship to show it will be HMCS Toronto, now serving in the Persian Gulf.




Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2013, 05:08:48 »
I heard about this but couldn't find anything on it. Interesting.

34 warships-Are we hiding one somewhere???
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2013, 06:16:56 »
Looks fine:



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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2013, 06:45:06 »
Will look strange at first until we become accustomed to it again.  It's not like we're re-inventing the wheel or anything, just retuning to what was once again.

Offline GAP

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So here is the new "white ensign" - distinctively Canada and well grounded historically - as it was when it was the Naval Jack.

And all at no cost, too. BZ, Navy!

Looks good, distinctive....
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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So here is the new "white ensign" - distinctively Canada and well grounded historically - as it was when it was the Naval Jack.

And all at no cost, too. BZ, Navy!

Couldn't they find a ship without a stove in bow, for the picture?  ;D
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Offline stokerwes

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2013, 08:59:09 »
I really think that manhours and resources could be used better elsewhere. Why not go back to hammocks and hard tack too?

Offline GAP

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Steam is good......though, the wood gets kinda damp.... :)
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Offline George Wallace

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Couldn't they find a ship without a stove in bow, for the picture?  ;D

PR Fail.    ;D
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Finally, the National flag is back at the place of honour on a ship: The Jackstaff.

And switching the Ol' Jack to become the Ensign is exactly what I proposed in these pages two years ago when the curl was reintroduced - Either someone in Ottawa is reading these pages or great minds think alike ;) .

The next question now: Will the CFAV's switch theirs too, so they now fly the Canadian Blue Ensign ?

Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2013, 09:21:20 »
...And 130 deg Boiler Rooms, asbestos dust (Yumm!) and of course 'Tiller Flats' justice!!!
I am still wondering why the majority of us were likely informed of this through the press?
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2013, 09:23:31 »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/05/02/ns-navy-flag-ensign.html

After 48 years, the Royal Canadian Navy will be flying a new flag.

The new ensign will debut on May 5, marking the anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic, a time when the navy and Canadians salute the sacrifices of sailors during the Second World War.

Since 1965, the Canadian maple leaf flag has flown off the stern of Canadian warships. The new design harkens back to the wartime navy. Back then, the naval ensign had a British flag in the upper corner on an all-white background.

In a reversal, the flag known as the Naval Jack will become the new Canadian naval ensign and the maple leaf design will become the new Naval Jack.

The new naval ensign incorporates the national flag in the upper left hand corner and the naval badge.

The navy said the switch doesn't mean they’ll scrap the maple leaf flag. Previously the ensign flag was displayed on the bow of Canadian warships, a less prominent position in navy protocol.

The new ensign will fly on 34 Canadian warships. The first ship to show it will be HMCS Toronto, now serving in the Persian Gulf.

That's funny. I was always taught by the old Chiefs at comm school that in Commonwealth navies, the Jack was the place of honour onboard.

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2013, 10:24:12 »
I really think that manhours and resources could be used better elsewhere. Why not go back to hammocks and hard tack too?
A hammock couldn't be worse than our new mattresses.   Would probably sleep much better.

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2013, 10:42:50 »
yum, hard tack, not to mention the free protein that comes with them, which will then surely lead to this discussion in the wardroom..

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Offline aratofsomesort

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2013, 11:28:49 »
Hell with hardtack.. bring back the TOT!

Offline NavalMoose

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2013, 13:39:37 »
I can't see there being too much cost to this since it's essentially just a matter of swapping ends where the flags go on the ships

Offline bLUE fOX

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2013, 13:41:31 »
Here here!





(EDIT to add: I meant this in response to the tot. I apparently wasn't fast enough)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 07:13:32 by bLUE fOX »
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2013, 13:43:46 »
I can't see there being too much cost to this since it's essentially just a matter of swapping ends where the flags go on the ships

You forgot all the bureaucratic man-hours spent on the paperwork that is involved in amending publications, orders, etc.; not to mention the translation of said orders and publications prior to reprinting them.   >:D
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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2013, 13:46:21 »
Just had hands fall down after lunch.  The old man said (paraphrase) there's more corrections coming with the intent of ridding any semblance of the what was done at unification.  I'm not too sure what else needs to be done to bring the wheel back around once more, he didn't elaborate further.  Will have to wait and see.

Offline MARS

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2013, 14:33:26 »
I can't see there being too much cost to this since it's essentially just a matter of swapping ends where the flags go on the ships

To be fair, there are some minor costs associated with this.  The one I am aware of was the requirement to procure new ensigns for our small boats.  But again, I think that was, relatively speaking, a minor cost
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Offline Privateer

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2013, 14:36:43 »
I suppose that the frigates and destroyers will need new "battle ensigns", to the extent that those are carried.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2013, 14:55:43 »
God help the first couple of duty watches onboard for Colours and Sunset....for the first few I can see flags being hoisted, taken down and 1 person running forward and the other to the quarterdeck to swap out.
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Offline winnipegoo7

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2013, 15:39:16 »
I heard about this but couldn't find anything on it. Interesting.

34 warships-Are we hiding one somewhere???

3 x Destroyers
12 x Frigates
12 x MCDVs
4 x Submarines
2 x AORs
1 x HMCS ORIOLE

= 34

Offline MARS

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2013, 15:51:38 »
God help the first couple of duty watches onboard for Colours and Sunset....for the first few I can see flags being hoisted, taken down and 1 person running forward and the other to the quarterdeck to swap out.

Exactly! I can't wait for some hapless OOD to come back off leave or something, having missed the announcement and think that his POOD is trying to mess with him.

 The Deputy Fleet Commander sent an email to all of his COs directing us to personally ensure there are NO screw ups, for Sunday at least. 
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Offline cupper

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Finally, the National flag is back at the place of honour on a ship: The Jackstaff.

And switching the Ol' Jack to become the Ensign is exactly what I proposed in these pages two years ago when the curl was reintroduced - Either someone in Ottawa is reading these pages or great minds think alike ;) .

The next question now: Will the CFAV's switch theirs too, so they now fly the Canadian Blue Ensign ?

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Let's take some time out here to absorb the change. Don't want to move too fast or it will just send you Navy types into a fantail spin. ;D
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The next question now: Will the CFAV's switch theirs too, so they now fly the Canadian Blue Ensign ?

Just had an RCN power point from the Buffer. The answer is no, the CFAVs will fly the new Ensign as well.
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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2013, 19:48:20 »
Just had an RCN power point from the Buffer. Here is the cut and past from it:

Quote
Who will be authorized to fly the
Canadian Naval Ensign?

•   All 33 c ommissioned warships of the RCN
•   HMCS Oriole
•   All eight Orca-class Patrol Craft Training (PCT) vessels
•   All Diving Tenders and TSRVs;
•   All 24 NavalReserve Divisions; and
•   All small boats whenever working away from the ship whether in domestic or international waters
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Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2013, 20:10:47 »
3 x Destroyers
12 x Frigates
12 x MCDVs
4 x Submarines
2 x AORs
1 x HMCS ORIOLE

= 34

Oriole<>Warship; not buying it.
Finally got some word officially this afternoon.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2013, 23:11:04 »
So do the Reserves fly them at their stone frigates or from their RHIBs?

If at the building, is there a fore and aft? Or do they just put everything on poles in the front? I know ours here has a quarterdeck but that's all I'm aware of regarding ship stations.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 23:13:57 by recceguy »
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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2013, 23:37:32 »
So do the Reserves fly them at their stone frigates or from their RHIBs?

If at the building, is there a fore and aft? Or do they just put everything on poles in the front? I know ours here has a quarterdeck but that's all I'm aware of regarding ship stations.

HMCS Tecumseh has a mast (?) outside and also one inside on the parade deck where they fly all of the flags, ensigns, and colours.

Offline Occam

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2013, 06:05:57 »
HMCS Tecumseh has a mast (?) outside and also one inside on the parade deck where they fly all of the flags, ensigns, and colours.

I'm sure a bunting tosser will be quick to correct me if I'm wrong, but the mast has several positions available for flying flags.  There's an order of precedence to the positions; if my memory hasn't failed me of doing colours/sunset on the parade square of Stadacona (when there actually was a parade square and not a parking lot), it went something like this:

1.  Gaff (the pole sticking out of the front of the mast, shown in the picture flying the Canadian flag)
2.  Outermost starboard halyard (when viewed from behind the mast; gaff pointing away from you)
3.  Outermost port halyard
4.  Next inboard starboard halyard
5.  Next inboard port halyard
6.  and so on...

Again, if memory hasn't failed me, we flew the Canadian Ensign, Naval Jack, and MARCOM flag, in that order of precedence.  I don't know if the recent order reverses the positions of the Canadian Ensign and Naval Jack, but that's my guess.

Offline Occam

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Couldn't they find a ship without a stove in bow, for the picture?  ;D

They had to use an older photo of a CPF; it's unlikely they'd find one in harbour these days, with much of the HALIFAX class either preparing for refit, in the midst of refit, or conducting post refit work and trials.  The ones not yet participating in FELEX haven't stood still long enough to get a picture.

And I know you're joking, but don't knock the anchor stowage position on the CPFs; it might look like someone took a chunk out of the bow, but it put an end to (most of) the lame "anchor pocket door" jokes from the days of the steamers.   ;)


Offline Pat in Halifax

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2013, 07:23:09 »
recceguy, your question was answered two posts before you posed it - probably a timing thing on posting.
Occam, there have been a bunch of CE guys off and on looking at the pole in front of ABlock (I currently work out of S15-I know; a stoker at CFNOS-raises the occasional eyebrow!). Whether that is to clean it up (it is in really BAD shape) or remove it, I don't know. I am not sure when that stopped actually and moved to in front of S90 only.
All said, the public wont really see the difference-As you point out Occam, the precedence of the Jack and national flag (both under new names) will be reversed.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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They had to use an older photo of a CPF; it's unlikely they'd find one in harbour these days, with much of the HALIFAX class either preparing for refit, in the midst of refit, or conducting post refit work and trials.  The ones not yet participating in FELEX haven't stood still long enough to get a picture.

And I know you're joking, but don't knock the anchor stowage position on the CPFs; it might look like someone took a chunk out of the bow, but it put an end to (most of) the lame "anchor pocket door" jokes from the days of the steamers.   ;)

Another difference between the Navy and the other two services who, provided with a bow like that, would have painted a red mouth with white teeth and a pair of feline type eyes around it by now. Grrrrr.....  :nod:
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Offline cupper

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Another difference between the Navy and the other two services who, provided with a bow like that, would have painted a red mouth with white teeth and a pair of feline type eyes around it by now. Grrrrr.....  :nod:

Only the RCAF would do that. The Army would paint the whole ship in a 3 tone camo.

Except one regiment which would paint the whole ship white.
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Only the RCAF would do that. The Army would paint the whole ship in a 3 tone camo.

Except one regiment which would paint the whole ship white.


And which regiment would that be?  :stirpot:
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Offline Loachman

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Except one regiment which would paint the whole ship white.

Only the "stone frigates".

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2013, 07:13:09 »
And the new white ensign is "worn" (I think that's the right term) for the first time in Canadian waters/on Canadian soil by HMCS Cabot, in St John's, this morning.



I'm assuming that's the proper location ... the gaff?

Looks just fine.
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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2013, 07:23:58 »
You in town Edward?
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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2013, 08:13:36 »
You in town Edward?


St. John's? No ... sadly.

I forgot to "source" the picture  :-[  ... it was posted by COMRCN, presumably it's from the navy's in house PR machine.
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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2013, 08:24:37 »

St. John's? No ... sadly.

I forgot to "source" the picture  :-[  ... it was posted by COMRCN, presumably it's from the navy's in house PR machine.


Roger that Edward.....
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Offline Occam

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2013, 09:03:20 »
And the new white ensign is "worn" (I think that's the right term) for the first time in Canadian waters/on Canadian soil by HMCS Cabot, in St John's, this morning.

I'm assuming that's the proper location ... the gaff?

Looks just fine.

"Hoisted" I think is the term the bunting tossers use...and the reverse is "hauled down".  The gaff is definitely the highest place of honour on the mast - I'm just not sure if I reversed port/stbd in my description above.  It might be as viewed from the front of the mast, with the gaff towards you.  I'll have to dig out some of my Dad's old Seamanship manuals and take a look.

And it does look good.

Offline Get Nautical

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2013, 14:30:22 »
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms/3/3-a_eng.asp?id=936

The PR machine spelled centre incorrectly.

Offline Fred Herriot

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And... voila:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4762

Damn!  Called it right!

Then again, it is a simple thing to do with next to no cost at all to the taxpayers.

Except for when they have to make the big war ensigns ships love to fly when they're at seas; the types that could drape over half the flight deck of a Halifax-class ship.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Damn!  Called it right!

Then again, it is a simple thing to do with next to no cost at all to the taxpayers.

Except for when they have to make the big war ensigns ships love to fly when they're at seas; the types that could drape over half the flight deck of a Halifax-class ship.


You mean like this?



My (vague) understanding is that warships should fly these monsters when engaging the enemy. Are there other rules, like fly it when sailing in allied flotillas? Is it captain's discretion?

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Offline Canadian.Trucker

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How is HMCS St. John's able to be at sea without fuel?  I kid I kid.
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How is HMCS St. John's able to be at sea without fuel?  I kid I kid.
Pffft, what a Pongo!  You can clearly see PRESERVER right behind her there.  Lots of fuel to be had.   :nod:

Offline Pat in Halifax

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My (vague) understanding is that warships should fly these monsters when engaging the enemy. Are there other rules, like fly it when sailing in allied flotillas? Is it captain's discretion?

I am not sure of the criteria for flying it. I know when we raced across the Atlantic following the fire on board CHI, we flew the battle ensign as we approached CHI and entered Faslane with her.
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Offline Canadian.Trucker

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Pffft, what a Pongo! 
Don't make me slap you with your own hand!  If I'm a pongo, you're a ponti.

But my jest was in reference to the recent fuel spill that HMCS St. Johns had in Halifax harbour, just to connect the dots.
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Online GR66

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How is HMCS St. John's able to be at sea without fuel?  I kid I kid.

That's a Battle Ensign?  I thought it was a back-up sail in case of fuel loss!   >:D

Offline MARS

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2013, 10:05:45 »
A Captain can fly their Battle Ensign whenever he or she chooses, basically.  Often when undertaking high visibility events, such as sail pasts, etc.  you have to make sure you have sufficient relative wind from ahead to keep the flag as taught as possible, lest it foul your gear or your mast, which is at a minimum embarrassing.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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I am not sure of the criteria for flying it. I know when we raced across the Atlantic following the fire on board CHI, we flew the battle ensign as we approached CHI and entered Faslane with her.

Quick derail... We sailed together... I was TD'd to STJ for that trip...
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Don't make me slap you with your own hand!  If I'm a pongo, you're a ponti.

But my jest was in reference to the recent fuel spill that HMCS St. Johns had in Halifax harbour, just to connect the dots.


 ;D    yeah, I was following the dots.

Offline NavalMoose

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2013, 21:30:23 »
"to keep the flag as taught as possible"

Who "taught" you how to spell "taut"?...lol

Offline MARS

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2013, 22:15:58 »
 ;D damn autocorrect.  Alternately, I am a CO, I have people to spell taut for me
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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2013, 23:03:51 »
Do they blare "Ride of the Valkyries" over the PA system as well?
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Offline Jacky Tar

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Re: Naval Ensign
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2013, 14:19:05 »
Do they blare "Ride of the Valkyries" over the PA system as well?

Well, CALGARY used to play the Calgary Stampede theme during the breakaway after a RAS :-)
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Another difference between the Navy and the other two services who, provided with a bow like that, would have painted a red mouth with white teeth and a pair of feline type eyes around it by now. Grrrrr.....  :nod:

Couldn't resist resuscitating this thread, as I knew I had read the post above.

Daftandbarmy, do you mean like this (picture of HMS Dragon, recently commissioned):

http://www.imeche.org/images/default-source/pe-news-width-454/1365_e8b1c44ea5fc72e0a6359796967760a0_454x250.jpg

Offline Get Nautical

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