Author Topic: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden  (Read 170482 times)

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Offline Dkeh

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Offline Remius

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 10:16:12 »
 :boring:

Did he really reveal anything that most people already knew was going ?

My problem is how a contractor can get that level of access for that kind of stuff.
Optio

Offline Dkeh

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 10:21:11 »
This officer can be trusted with a weapon, or with ammo, but never both at the same time.

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Offline Nemo888

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 10:23:58 »
All electronic communications are monitored all the time. It's gotten really cold war Soviet over here though. Pretty ironic as when I was a kid we always touted how you were always surveilled in those evil dictatorial countries who tortured and spied on their own citizens. We were the good guys in the free country! The slide was so slow and the media so on board almost no one noticed.

Offline cupper

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 18:57:47 »
Big question in the news today is why he has chosen to hide out in Hong Kong, which has an extradition treaty with the US. :facepalm:
It's hard to win an argument against a smart person, it's damned near impossible against a stupid person.

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2013, 22:42:35 »
Snowden longed for that great bastion of democracy Chine and I think he got his wish.

Offline GAP

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2013, 22:54:56 »
Big question in the news today is why he has chosen to hide out in Hong Kong, which has an extradition treaty with the US. :facepalm:

and is owned by China
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Offline Robert0288

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 23:33:28 »
All electronic communications are monitored all the time. It's gotten really cold war Soviet over here though.

With the way that information travels over the internet, information tends to travel down the fastest pipe rather than shortest distance geographically.  With the US having so many highspeed servers, backbones and transatlantic/pasific fiber trunk lines, a good deal of information gets passed through the US while not actually having anything to do with the US. 

Next time you're bored at your computer. (Only works with windows) go to start, Command Prompt (cmd.exe) and type in "tracert www.*favoritewebitehere*.com"  Then google some of the resulting IPs.  You might be surprised where your information goes to and who owns those servers.

Offline cupper

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 23:34:39 »
More detailed background on Snowden from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/edward-snowden-says-motive-behind-leaks-was-to-expose-surveillance-state/2013/06/09/aa3f0804-d13b-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html

His background leaves a lot to question as to how he got where he was. Dropped out of high school (eventually got a GED) discharged from the US Army after 5 months due to training accident that broke both legs. Started out in the three letter agencies as a security guard, but his computer skills allowed him to move up as a tech in various classified overseas facilities for the CIA and NSA.

But he does sound like a very personable kind of guy you'd want for a neighbor.

Quote
Snowden and his girlfriend were strikingly standoffish while living in a home in the residential Royal Kunia neighborhood of Waipahu, and seemed to go out of their way to avoid conversations with passers-by, neighbor Carolyn Tijing said in a telephone interview. Tijing said that her husband went to introduce himself to Snowden and his girlfriend shortly after they moved across the street from the Tijings but that Snowden declined to exchange any pleasantries.

“It was a no-go, no conversation at all,” she said. “He just said ‘Fine’ and walked straight into his house. We thought they were just really anti-social.”

Carolyn Tijing said that the couple had erected a wall of boxes floor to ceiling inside their garage that blocked anyone’s view from the street into the two-car garage and that they always kept their cars parked in the driveway.Tijing said that she never saw anyone visit the home but that her college-aged son had seen several people stop by at late hours, between midnight and 2 a.m. Those visitors would arrive by car, stand in the driveway for a few minutes and exchange a few words with Snowden, then depart, Tijing said her son told her.

About four weeks ago, Snowden and his girlfriend apparently departed, Tijing said. The wall of boxes in the garage was gone, and a handyman arrived to clean the house. “One day they were here, the next they were gone,” Tijing said. “We never saw them leave.”
 
It's hard to win an argument against a smart person, it's damned near impossible against a stupid person.

There is no God, and life is just a myth.

"He who drinks, sleeps. He who sleeps, does not sin. He who does not sin, is holy. Therefore he who drinks, is holy."

Let's Go CAPS!

Offline Nemo888

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 07:14:20 »
Great piece of character assassination from the NYT.  "He betrayed the privacy of us all." Awesome, some real Cold War Pravda style shite here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/opinion/brooks-the-solitary-leaker.html?_r=3&hp&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1370928863-7CjsK6WA3P24nw625tvv3w&

Offline George Wallace

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 07:34:48 »
Great piece of character assassination from the NYT.  "He betrayed the privacy of us all." Awesome, some real Cold War Pravda style shite here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/opinion/brooks-the-solitary-leaker.html?_r=3&hp&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1370928863-7CjsK6WA3P24nw625tvv3w&

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Offline Nemo888

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 07:55:36 »
That the article does not even speak to the issues he gave up his life for is very telling. It is pure ad hominem.

Some of the comments to the article are good.

This column reads like a genteel rewrite of Nixon's Enemies List. It spans the spectrum of the thin-skinned paranoia which the powerful exhibit whenever their predatory little worlds are exposed. To wit:

--Blame the messenger instead of the malefactors (Snowden magically destroys privacy by reporting on the destruction of privacy!) -- check.

-- Speculate about the messenger's psychological state ( Watergate Rule #26, inspired by the Nixon Plumbers break-in of the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist ) -- check.

-- Denigrate the messenger's lowly educational background and social status. Point out the faux pas of servants who betray their masters, who of course are not corporate welfare capitalist spies, but rather philanthropic humanitarian aid organizations.-- check.

-- Question the messenger's patriotism and loyalty to friends and family. -- check. (These whistleblowers are always terrible sons, boyfriends and dressers - see Assange, Julian ; Bill Keller edition)

Edward Snowden deserves a medal not only for upsetting the security state apple cart, but for getting David Brooks so tied up in knots that his bromides and his platitudes are congealing into a bigger mess than usual.

Snowden is guilty of the high crime of giving aid and comfort to the citizenry. He is a traitor to Brook's class.

Offline Nemo888

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 08:23:20 »
You aren't getting a little paranoid are you?  Will we see a rush on aluminum products soon?

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Offline GnyHwy

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 08:35:14 »
He isn't saying anything anyone else hasn't already thought about.  His problem is he is saying it from a position of authority, which gives the accusations more credibility, if not certainty.  He should not be grouped with other persons that willfully leak information, i.e. Wikileaks.  Those organizations are leaking potential sensitive information, regardless of whether or not there will be follow on effects.

He has simply stated what the government should already have been transparent about.

Where I disagree with him is the supposed likelyhood that your past information will be used against you, even if you're a good person.  While this is certainly possible, your everyday person committing petty crimes will still remain at the bottom of the priority list.  In fact, I believe that list will only become longer and more detailed, pushing petty crimes even further down the list.
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Offline Nemo888

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 09:01:08 »
Let's talk about the real issue and get away from character assassination.

Things changed. I will go out on a limb here and say this intelligence was always collected by every single NATO nation since before most of us were even born. It was used to catch bad guys, terrorist douche bags almost exclusively. I never had a problem with that. Currently Vic Toews has been trying to get that info available to conventional law enforcement which I am totally against.

The system had many checks and balances. I'll use one of the first Delta team shooters who became a head of the GWOT Lieutenant General William G. "Jerry" Boykin as a public source. in the 80's and 90's he complained bitterly about only getting approval for roughly 10% of possible targets. To get higher there would have been many false positives, civvie casualties and diplomatic fallout.  After 9/11 that went to almost 100% and both congressional and CIA oversight was removed as power shifted to the Pentagon. By 2003 at least 3000 persons in 100 countries were disappeared or captured. Technically these were acts of war on foreign soil and not even the ambassadors knew what was going on. They would cable Washington asking why 6"5' white guys with 19 inch biceps were wandering the city. Even if it was necessary then most should be dead so it's time to bring back the rule of law. If things have gotten worse then obviously these scummy totalitarian tactics have only created more enemies and destroyed our credibility. Then time to rethink strategy and reign in these extraordinary powers. 

Offline GnyHwy

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 09:22:19 »
Things changed. I will go out on a limb here and say this intelligence was always collected by every single NATO nation since before most of us were even born. It was used to catch bad guys, terrorist douche bags almost exclusively. I never had a problem with that. Currently Vic Toews has been trying to get that info available to conventional law enforcement which I am totally against.

When the terrorists were operating mostly outside our borders then I agree that conventional law enforcement didn't need to know.

With the likelyhood certainty that terrorists operate within our borders, who do you expect him to get the info too?  Who is the proper authority? And when is it too late for the appropriate authority to get the information?

For the record, I consider RCMP and FBI conventional law enforcement and if large municipalities have specialty units, I consider them conventional too.
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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 09:47:33 »
My problem is how a contractor can get that level of access for that kind of stuff.
It appears a lot of int work is contracted out in the U.S.
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Offline Nemo888

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 10:03:45 »
When the terrorists were operating mostly outside our borders then I agree that conventional law enforcement didn't need to know.

With the likelyhood certainty that terrorists operate within our borders, who do you expect him to get the info too?  Who is the proper authority? And when is it too late for the appropriate authority to get the information?

For the record, I consider RCMP and FBI conventional law enforcement and if large municipalities have specialty units, I consider them conventional too.
It was always used successfully to catch terrorists within our borders. The changes proposed are for what it can be used for and who can get full access. If CSIS/CSE says check this guy out wink wink that's cool. If conventional police are simply trolling for data that is a big problem. The information will probably always be collected. I don't want civvie law enforcement to have free access or the courts to be able to use this illegally obtained information as evidence. This can turn all Stasi very quickly. It's everything wrong with the Gun Registry on steroids.

Offline GnyHwy

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 11:40:34 »
It was always used successfully to catch terrorists within our borders. The changes proposed are for what it can be used for and who can get full access. If CSIS/CSE says check this guy out wink wink that's cool. If conventional police are simply trolling for data that is a big problem. The information will probably always be collected. I don't want civvie law enforcement to have free access or the courts to be able to use this illegally obtained information as evidence. This can turn all Stasi very quickly. It's everything wrong with the Gun Registry on steroids.

I don't quite see it the same way you are looking at, such as low level authorities dragnetting for tips.  I am with you 100% if that is the case and inexperienced persons are sifting through data rather than intelligence that has been derived from data by true experts.  Which leads to this.

It appears a lot of int work is contracted out in the U.S.

These methods break the most important principle of intelligence.  Centralized control.  I can definitely agree with reigning in the amount of persons/groups that have access to data.  But, once it's deemed intelligence, it needs to be disseminated asap, to the persons that need it i.e. local law enforcement. 
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Offline DBA

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 13:33:24 »
Telecommunications surveillance is a tool and how it is used matters. In countries where insulting the leader is a crime it has a different outcome than in countries with free speech.

I see it as a waste of resources myself as like "defense everywhere is defense nowhere" I see "all data is no data" as there will be too many false and meaningless patterns or leads. Recording some information so you can track interactions once a lead is established by more traditional means I think would produce better results with much less effort.
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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 15:01:13 »

The New York Times
June 11, 2013

Hong Kong, a Strange Place to Seek Freedom
By LAW YUK-kai
 
HONG KONG — Edward J. Snowden, the 29-year-old government contractor who blew the whistle on the American government’s vast data-collection efforts, was last seen checking out of a boutique hotel here on Monday. The previous day, he released a video defending his decision to leak sensitive secrets and explaining that he’d sought refuge in Hong Kong because it “has a strong tradition of free speech” and “a long tradition of protesting in the streets.”

This news stunned many local residents, especially those of us who advocate for human rights. Since 1997, when the British government returned Hong Kong to China after getting assurances that this former colony’s traditions of rule of law and individual freedom would be respected, the political, legal and human rights landscape here has become ever less conducive to the protection of civil liberties. Mr. Snowden — if he is still in town — has stepped into an unknown future in which the concept of “one nation, two systems,” promised us by Beijing, has become a fading memory.

Whether it was youthful naïveté or just ignorance, Mr. Snowden’s positive view of Hong Kong no longer matches the reality. Shortly before his arrival, the international organization Freedom House ranked Hong Kong 71st in the world in protection of political rights and civil liberties. Reporters Without Borders has dropped Hong Kong on its ranking of press freedom to No. 58, from No. 18 in 2002.

 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/hong-kong-a-strange-place-to-seek-freedom.html?hp&_r=0&pagewanted=print


Offline muskrat89

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 15:31:38 »
Quote
Whether it was youthful naïveté or just ignorance,

Or, he could be working for the Chinese...

I saw a couple variations of that theory floated around the other day
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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2013, 15:33:20 »
Claims that Russia might be interested in granting him asylum. 

Quote
Now Russia set to offer whistleblower asylum: Putin 'considers' giving Edward Snowden refuge as NSA leaker vanishes in Hong Kong
Edward Snowden, a former CIA technical assistant fled to Hong Kong
Leaked details of Prism, which he says harvests personal data from web
U.S. National Intelligence director says surveillance keeps America safe
Names Iceland as his destination of choice due to internet freedom

Russian MP Robert Schlegel urged the Kremlin to look at a the possibility
News has increased pressure on President Barack Obama to act swiftly
House Speaker John Boehner called him a 'traitor' who put Americans at risk

By Ian Drury and Jill Reilly
PUBLISHED: 02:38 GMT, 11 June 2013 | UPDATED: 12:05 GMT, 11 June 2013

Russia today hinted that Vladimir Putin would grant political asylum to Edward Snowden, the NSA whistleblower who leaked the secret information about a classified U.S. government surveillance program.

'We will take action based on what actually happens. If we receive such a request, it will be considered,' said the Russian president's official spokesman Dmitry Peskov.

The former CIA undercover operative is on the run after checking out of his luxury Hong Kong hotel on Sunday - his whereabouts is unknown.

The news that Putin is considering offering the 29-year-old refuge has increased pressure on President Barack Obama to act swiftly.

The president is facing an increasing domestic and international backlash as his administration struggles to contain the explosive revelations.  He will come face to face with Putin at the G8 summit in Northern Ireland next week.

This morning House Speaker John Boehner called Snowden a 'traitor' who put Americans at risk by releasing classified information to the media.
Boehner had initially called on Obama to explain to the program to the American people, but today he told ABC News, the two program's were critical to the government’s ability to fight terrorism and claimed there are 'clear safeguards' built into the programs to protect citizens.

Today one Russian report stressed that the country has a consulate in Hong Kong where Snowden could make an asylum request.

The Russian angle contrasts with its total refusal to act on Western hints that it could help solve the Syrian crisis by granting asylum to its long-time ally President Bashar al-Assad and his family.

Snowden is a technology expert working for a private firm subcontracted to  the US National Security Agency.
Last week he told the Guardian newspaper of a mammoth surveillance operation run by the NSA on telephone and Internet records around the world.
In the US he has been branded a traitor and there is pressure for his extradition from Hong Kong.

Russian MP Robert Schlegel urged the Kremlin to look at a the possibility of granting political asylum to Snowden.

'It would be a good idea,' he said.  It's unknown where he will actually go, but Snowden had mentioned Iceland, a tiny island nation of 360,000, as a possibility.
It seems more likely that he would actually flee to the Islandic consulate in Hong Kong, rather than risking boarding a plane to fly there in person.

However, powerful members of Congress are already demanding that Snowden be extradited and tried in an American court for revealing the existence of the PRISM program, which collects data from untold tens of millions of Americans, including their cell phone use.

It remains to be seen whether the Icelandic government would be willing - or even able - to stand up to pressure from the United States if American authorities demanded his extradition.

Iceland's government of newly-elected conservative Prime Minister Sigmundur David Gunnlaugsson, may not be so generous to Snowden. While still untested, it is widely seen as closer to Washington than past administrations and less keen to foster the island country's cyber-haven image.

Snowden has yet to make a formal application for asylum and would have to go to Iceland to make the request, said Kristin Volundarsdottir, head of Iceland's Directorate of Immigration. Gunnlaugsson's government did not otherwise comment on the case.

'I would be very surprised if they (the government) would be eager to engage in any international disputes with the U.S. And it is pretty difficult to be granted asylum here,' said Stefania Oskarsdottir, lecturer in political science at the University of Iceland.

'I think what this guy is saying is based on something he is imagining or hoping for rather than actual facts.'

As a U.S. citizen, Snowden would not need a visa to enter Iceland, or its embassy, and could immediately apply for asylum.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339329/Russia-hints-Putin-grant-political-asylum-whistleblower-Edward-Snowden-NSA-leaker-vanishes-Hong-Kong.html#ixzz2VwCVGlyM
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2013, 15:40:14 »

I'm sure they'd just love to sit him down for a nice, long chat!  :sarcasm:

Offline Nemo888

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Re: NSA Whistle-blower Ed Snowden
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2013, 15:50:01 »
Hong Kong has a great airport and China is one subway stop away.  Direct flights to almost any destination. I doubt he is still in Hong Kong. I certainly wouldn't be. Ecuador would be my first choice.

If he wanted to cash in China or Russia would have paid him handsomely and not blown his cover. Obviously he is a conscientious objector.