Author Topic: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes  (Read 38136 times)

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CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« on: August 21, 2013, 07:47:00 »
This from buyandsell.gc.ca:
Quote
.... The Department of National Defence has a requirement to acquire an enduring, operational level, multi-sensor Manned Airborne Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) capability, deployable on short notice to provide dedicated support to DND operations domestically or internationally.  To meet its requirements, DND may look to acquire the aircraft and Prime Mission Equipment (PME) as well as the support for both the aircraft platform and the PME.

The intent of this Letter of Interest (LOI) is to solicit market information, including price and availability and delivery schedule, as well as to determine industry interest in responding to a potential Request for Proposal (RFP) for the needed resources ....

More from some of the bid documents:
Quote
.... DND has a potential requirement to acquire and sustain a minimum quantity of three (3) to a maximum quantity of four (4) (preferred) airworthy aircraft, all being the same type and configuration, which have the notional level of capabilities as per the following rudimentary requirements:

a. Airworthiness - Each modified aircraft proposed shall have a valid airworthiness certificate upon delivery. All aircraft must be globally self-deployable (multi-engine) and able to transit through domestic and International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) civilian-controlled and military-controlled airspace;

b. Mission Aircraft performance – The un-refueled range of the platforms shall be a minimum of 2000 km (greater range is preferred) at normal cruise power while carrying a minimum crew of two (2) pilots and approximately 1200 lbs of mission payload (two (2) sensor operators with PME  installed and operating);

c. Aircraft Life – Each aircraft shall, upon receipt, have minimum sufficient life remaining for 10 years/10,000 hours of usage (for this LOI assume an average usage of four (4) flying hours per engine cycle);

d. Configuration of Cockpit –Aviator Night Vision Imaging System (ANVIS) compatible cockpit with suitable avionics to support flight in international airspace and integration into military coalition operations (i.e. military transponders with Mode S, encrypted radios, Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) 2, Pro-Line 21, etc.);

e. Configuration of mission suite – Each aircraft shall be delivered with the PME, as stated in paragraph 3.2. If the supplier cannot acquire the needed PME, due to International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) or similar constraint, the supplier would then state the assumption that the specific PME system would be Government Furnished Equipment (GFE), and the contractor integration would allow for the PME to be fitted for but not with. “Fitted for but not with” is defined as to have the airworthiness approved physical, electrical, data and software interfaces installed without the Line Replaceable Units (LRU) mounted.  The required aircraft integration configuration includes all structural and electrical modifications including bulkheads, cables, cable connectors, antennas, fairings, man-machine-interfaces, etc. for the PME to be used operationally; and

f. Aircraft Survivability Equipment (ASE) - Each platform shall be delivered fitted for an ASE suite, as stated in paragraph 3.3, but not with. “Fitted for but not with” is defined above (3.1 e) and includes the mounts, fairings, cables, and cable connectors for the ASE LRUs (sensors, dispensers, and cockpit displays/controls, etc.) for the ASE to be used operationally ....

Deadline for this first step:  2013/09/30 14:00 EDT
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Offline Duckman54

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 12:14:14 »
Budget version of the P-8 Poseidon?

http://www.casr.ca/ai-boeing-msa-global-express.htm     (Speculated/proposed)
http://www.casr.ca/ai-boeing-msa-challenger.htm          (Selected)

Made-in-Canada solution?  Or izzat too simple?

Wonder if the Brits ever found a buyer for their lightly-used Sentinels they bought from Montreal few years back... If I recall, those were some pretty seriously capable aircraft! Last I read, they were pretty desperate to make a deal, could be picked up for a bargain! Not like we don't have any experience with the type!

When your "Global Supply Chain" consists of sending some young Pte out in a pickup truck to dash across town for some urgently-needed spare part, well that ain't too shabby!   "And grab us a Timmies on the way back, eh?"  ;)
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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2013, 13:00:07 »
.... Wonder if the Brits ever found a buyer for their lightly-used Sentinels they bought from Montreal few years back... If I recall, those were some pretty seriously capable aircraft! Last I read, they were pretty desperate to make a deal, could be picked up for a bargain! Not like we don't have any experience with the type! ....
Buying used/barely used from the Brits hasn't been without its bumps in the road.
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Offline Flatspin

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2013, 13:11:34 »
How about the new E2-D Hawkeye ? Too expensive for Canada ? ;) We could tag along on the US Navy's order.

Offline UnwiseCritic

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2013, 13:19:01 »
This actually sounds like a good investment
"He who hates correction is stupid!"

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 13:36:09 »
How about the new E2-D Hawkeye ? Too expensive for Canada ? ;) We could tag along on the US Navy's order.
Smaller twin-engine planes have been used for similar work in the past.

Other options?
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Offline UnwiseCritic

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 14:10:13 »
It will be interesting to see how the selection process unfolds given the criticism of the F-35 acquisition.
"He who hates correction is stupid!"

Offline h3tacco

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 17:48:04 »
IF I was to guess this is for a King Air type platform.

Something along the lines of a MC-12 variant.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 17:51:04 by h3tacco »

Offline garb811

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 18:16:15 »
Queue this option in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

Viking DHC-5NG Buffalo NG.

Might as well have a common FWSAR and ISR airframe, right? 

Offline Duckman54

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2013, 10:45:47 »
NOW you're talkin'!!  Go Buff!   
Only 1200 lb mission package?  That would leave LOTSA room for aux fuel... Then talk about loiter time!

You're absolutely right in that we got hosed on the sub deal...  Spent more time in the garage so far than that 'ol vintage MG project few of us got going...   Difference here is WE BUILT THE SENTINAL! Heck, the Brits are in tight money situation... Assume the payments?  Voluntary repo?   Lol.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 10:50:51 by Duckman54 »
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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2013, 10:57:24 »
IF I was to guess this is for a King Air type platform.

Something along the lines of a MC-12 variant.
Zero inside information on my part, but if I had to bet a loonie, I'd bet this way, too (especially since it's a solution already used).
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Offline h3tacco

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2013, 12:54:44 »
Zero inside information on my part, but if I had to bet a loonie, I'd bet this way, too (especially since it's a solution already used).

Likewise zero inside information.

I also think we could probably guess the customer.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2013, 13:15:55 »
Another Bombardier possibility:

Quote
L-3 Spins SPYDR's Web at Dubai Air Show
Dubai Air Show » November 15, 2011
...
The SPYDR aircraft here is similar to the MC-12W, but Smith claims that L-3 is unique in being both sensor and platform-agnostic. “We are ready to partner in-country to meet specific requirements, using different sensors” he said. In fact, substitution of the SIGINT system may become necessary if the U.S. does not permit wide export of the company’s Rio suite which features added UHF scan capability...

As for alternative platforms, L-3 has been talking to Bombardier about an ISR version of the Q400 turboprop airliner [emphasis added].
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/dubai-air-show/2011-11-14/l-3-spins-spydrs-web-dubai-air-show

See also C4ISR here:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/aerospace/specialized-aircraft/specialized-mission-types.html

Mark
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Offline Quirky

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2013, 14:28:28 »
It will be interesting to see how the selection process unfolds given the criticism of the F-35 acquisition.

The Canadian public, and media for that matter doesn't care. Everyone is an expert when it comes to fighter jets.  ::)

Offline Ditch

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2013, 11:23:41 »
"Global self-deployable" infers capable of flying in the high structure - pretty much eliminates any Buff-NG.

BE200/350 would be most cost effective platform. Q400 is a good made-in-Canada option, just a little bit of overkill.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2013, 13:08:00 »
How about this baby?

EADS C295 AEW

It has the Israeli aew system that's pretty good.

Offline MAJONES

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2013, 18:34:32 »
"Global self-deployable" infers capable of flying in the high structure - pretty much eliminates any Buff-NG.

BE200/350 would be most cost effective platform. Q400 is a good made-in-Canada option, just a little bit of overkill.

That has the advantage of fleet commonality with the MEUF.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2013, 19:04:22 »
Quote from: Quirky link=topic=111835.msg1252002#msg1252002 date= Everyone is an expert when it comes to fighter jets.  ::)
[/quote

That is so true.
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Offline reverse_eng

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2013, 19:10:45 »
Likewise zero inside information.

I also think we could probably guess the customer.

I was actually thinking the same thing when I first saw this thread...I bet you are probably not far off.

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2013, 10:48:33 »
That has the advantage of fleet commonality with the MEUF.

Moot point as scuttlebutt says MEUF is gone soon.
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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2013, 21:17:54 »
Update - potential bidders get a chance to chat up CF folks later this week.

More in the attached bid document update.
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Offline MCG

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2013, 10:01:46 »
Budget version of the P-8 Poseidon?
I would hope our future ISR platform is multi-role capable of both maritime surveilance & patrol (incl ASW) and ground surveilance.
We need both capabilities, but we cannot afford seperate units and airframes.

Offline Colin P

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2013, 10:20:24 »
TC operates King Airs, among others

Surveillance Fleet

    de Havilland Canada Dash 7-150IR
    Bombardier Dash 8M-100
    Cessna 550 Citation II
    Beechcraft King Air C90A

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2013, 07:39:19 »
Sun Media catches up with the latest ....
Quote
The Canadian military is taking the first step toward getting new eyes in the sky to monitor the Arctic, watch domestic waters and even track movements in foreign battlegrounds.

Government officials met with possible suppliers in mid-September to gauge interest in providing "enduring, operational level, multi-sensor Manned Airborne Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) capability, deployable on short notice."

Suppliers have until Friday to tell the feds formally that they're interested in the possible project to provide three to four aircraft - even if they're used.

"Each aircraft shall, upon receipt, have minimum sufficient life remaining for 10 years/10,000 hours of usage," said officials in documents given to industry.

New planes would typically last much longer than a decade.

If Canada decides to pick up used planes, they may come from the United States or Britain.

The U.S. is set to declare up to a dozen of its turboprop MC-12W recon planes surplus next year.

Britain may also get rid of its Bombardier-built Sentinel jets after British forces come back from their mission in Afghanistan.

British Sentinels were also used to help French forces find Islamist targets in Mali earlier this year and in NATO's Libya air war in 2011 ....
Remember where you read it first  ;)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 09:38:08 by milnews.ca »
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2013, 08:48:51 »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2013, 07:25:57 »
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2013, 12:55:34 »
Global Hawk- cost $35m.Operating cost $18,900 an hour.Range 1400nm and 42 hour endurance.


I think you're missing a decimal point on the range.

Jane's gives a comparable figure on endurance (36 hours for the RQ-4B model), but the range given in Jane's for the RQ-4B is listed as 14,000 miles (12,300 nautical miles).

1400 miles isn't a very impressive range for a country like Canada. 14,000 miles is VERY impressive.

Offline Colin P

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2013, 17:00:17 »
meanwhile back in the 30's  ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_ANT-25


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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2014, 19:09:33 »
Bumped with the latest:  no, thanks, we'll buy American:
Quote
.... The purpose of this notice is to advise industry that, upon completion of an options analysis of this requirement, Canada has determined it will not seek a complete Manned Airborne Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Platform solution due to reasons of security and technical feasibility.  Rather, it is anticipated Canada will competitively procure some elements and obtain the others directly from the US government ....
More from The Canadian Press here.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2014, 13:27:35 »
An article that says the the US MC-12W is in the running.

- Link removed IAW site policy - Milnet.ca Staff
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 18:51:37 by milnews.ca »

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Still in "options analysis" phase of work
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2015, 07:02:04 »
The latest:
Quote
.... The purpose of this notice is to update industry on the Manned Airborne Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (MAISR) project. The Government of Canada will be seeking project approval to proceed with a three element approach:  The initial element will be a competitive procurement for three new, or nearly new, Beechcraft King Air 350ER platforms.  The second element will be the Prime Mission Equipment integration via a Foreign Military Sales Case competed by the United States Government. This element will leverage existing, operationally proven and airworthiness certified Military-Off-The-Shelf programs.  The last element will be the competitive procurement of In-Service Support services .... the MAISR project is still in the Options Analysis phase, which includes gaining a better understanding of the potential economic benefit of the MAISR project to Canada ....
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Offline GAP

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2015, 08:33:50 »
Quote
the MAISR project is still in the Options Analysis phase, which includes gaining a better understanding of the potential economic benefit of the MAISR project to Canada ....

and here is what we will get...........
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2015, 08:37:55 »
and here is what we will get...........
You wild-eyed optimist, you ....
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2015, 13:10:02 »
and here is what we will get...........

Made in Quebec, bien sur.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2015, 23:44:51 »
Bumped with a possible solution?  Highlights mine ....
Quote
The MC-12W Liberty reconnaissance aircraft will be completely removed from the US Air Force’s inventory by 1 October, but Air Combat Command says all of the aircraft will go to new owners and not the boneyard.

The militerised turboprops have all but departed their home at Beale AFB in California: 11 are shifting to the US Army and 26 are destine for US Special Operations Command.

That leaves four of the 41 aircraft unaccounted for, but a spokesman for ACC tells Flightglobal the plan for those last aircraft is still being finalised ....
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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2015, 08:07:30 »
Bumped with the latest from the latest set of contract docs“…. The date for Canada to host the industry day for MAISR In-Service Support procurement has changed from December 2015, to the first quarter of 2016 ….”

That is all ....
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2018, 10:09:43 »
Update:

Quote
The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) has announced US State Department approval for the sale of three extended-range King Air 350ER business turboprops for use in Canada's Manned Airborne Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (MAISR) programme.

Announced on 4 October, the procurement will see the three aircraft undergo 'customer unique' modifications to suit them for the role, with their mission fit being listed as including L-3 Wescam's MX-15D electro-optic/infrared (EO/IR) imager, Northrop Grumman's AN/AAR-47B(V)2 missile and laser warning system and the BAE Systems/Extant Aerospace AN/ALE-47 countermeasures dispenser system. Other onboard equipment will include L-3 Communications Systems - West's Vortex transceiver, Raytheon's AN/APX-119 IFF transponder, the Rockwell Collins AN/ARC-210 transceiver, the KGV-135A communications security module, the KIV-77 cryptographic appliqué, and the KG-250X network encryptor.

With associated tool sets, ground support equipment, airframe and engine spares, training, and logistics added in, the MAISR aircraft will cost approximately USD300 million. In programmatic terms, the Canadian Government initiated a US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) process relating to its MAISR programme in April which in June evolved into a two-stage process: acquisition of the platforms and their mission systems, followed by the letting of a contract covering "complete programme" support services.

https://www.janes.com/article/83584/canada-to-acquire-trio-of-maisr-king-air-350er-aircraft
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Offline reverse_eng

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2018, 14:43:55 »
Fun times.  :nod:

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2018, 15:51:58 »
This acquisition will have taken over five years:

Quote
A Few Good ISR Planes for RCAF?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/mark-collins-a-few-good-isr-planes-for-rcaf/

Warp speed or something.

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Offline Dimsum

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2018, 16:20:14 »
This acquisition will have taken over five years:

Warp speed or something.

It's almost like all the heat and light on the other projects let this one slide under the radar undisturbed.   ;)
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2018, 08:25:06 »
Speaking of RADAR, I'd heard there was going to be a multi-mode set on the MAISR platforms...not listed above.
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Offline reverse_eng

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2018, 19:09:15 »
Not a RADAR SME, but I'd estimate that the listed features are not all inclusive.

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2018, 22:32:08 »
Not a RADAR SME, but I'd estimate that the listed features are not all inclusive.

Possible or might have been dropped off the desired kit list.  I have an RAF friend who did this stuff, and their platform didn't have an imaging RADAR...

Either way, glad to see this one moving forward.
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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2018, 08:46:09 »
So which squadron will fly them?  Or is a new squadron standing up?
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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2018, 16:57:14 »
One has one's doubts, esp. with this gov't:

Quote
WEAPONIZING MAISR, ARMED KING AIRS FOR CANADA
http://airsoc.com/articles/view/id/5b81f88a3d2d2ec0328b4567/weaponizing-maisr-armed-king-airs-for-canada



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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2018, 21:18:51 »
What good does 3 aircraft do?  In order to sustain coverage you need at least 2 with a spare readily available.  There is your entire package.  One manpad causing even superficial damage and your response is severely limited.  As the attached article suggested, a minimum of 10 to 15 should be acquired.  3 is simply a waste of money IMHO

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2018, 21:31:50 »
What good does 3 aircraft do?  In order to sustain coverage you need at least 2 with a spare readily available.  There is your entire package.  One manpad causing even superficial damage and your response is severely limited.  As the attached article suggested, a minimum of 10 to 15 should be acquired.  3 is simply a waste of money IMHO

Would be interested to see your math in the mission analysis-based deduction leading to 10-15 aircraft.  Also interested to hear about how something doing I and S and R from a reasonably expected stand-off position would be tangling with enemy MANPADS close in with AD engagement ranges.  It would seem that your opinion of value, or lack thereof, differs from that of DND, Treasury Board, Finance, PSPC and PCO, to name a few GoC Departments/Agencies.

:2c:

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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2018, 22:52:04 »
Just to clarify, this purchase is more directed at supporting SOF than conventional operations?

If so, makes sense.  And that's the sense I got from the initial articles & concept a few years ago. 


Question though - is this the right road to go down?  Would a long endurance UAV (Newest version of Reaper or whatever it is) be better suited if it's for armed ISR coverage?

^^ I know the community has already thought this through and decided this was the road to go down.  Just asking for clarification.
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Re: CF seeking 3 or 4 manned fixed-wing ISR planes
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2018, 09:01:13 »
I'd say ideally  you'd have both, as they have different abilities.  We don't live in an ideal world though.

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