Author Topic: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system  (Read 1353 times)

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/child-welfare-on-reserve-compensation-1.5272667

This has been a long time building. It won’t just be children but parents and grandparents. Total cost is huge, but it has to be paid. I wasn’t aware the CHRC could make such a sweeping, multi billion dollar decision.
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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2019, 12:51:11 »
While I don't want to undersell the poor conditions some of these Canadians went through, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around culpability due to "discriminat(ion) against First Nations children by under-funding on-reserve child welfare services."

What isn't underfunded by government these days?  Schools are complaining about it, think tanks point to military underfunding, and apparently the health care system will collapse any day due to lack of funds.  What is it that compels a government to "fund program X to level Y, or else?"
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2019, 15:08:41 »
Pretty much everything is under-funded, if "under-funded" means "not as much funding as the program's proponents deem desirable or necessary".  Is the program under-funded in the sense of "not as much funding as provided to equivalent programs elsewhere"?  That would be unjust, but is not clear to me from the initial articles available (eg. CBC).

>What is it that compels a government to "fund program X to level Y, or else?

A court decision, I suppose.  I was reading a recent article (Brexit-related) which leads me to believe we have too much judicial oversight (of Parliament) compared to what we originally had (and the UK still, somewhat, has).  This seems to fit into the bucket of problems that are worsened by not having wired all Canadian communities firmly into the federal - provincial - local hierarchy of government (clearer delineation and more effective delegation of authorities).
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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2019, 15:26:21 »
That’s a good point Brad. Indigenous discrimination is fairly safe ground for litigation, expect more.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2019, 16:16:56 »
https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/child-welfare-on-reserve-compensation-1.5272667
. . . I wasn’t aware the CHRC could make such a sweeping, multi billion dollar decision.

Semantics.  The CHRC (CHR Commission) cannot, however, the separate and independent CHRT (CHR Tribunal) can.  Their establishment, roles and functions, and penalties that may be assessed (by the CHRT) are authorized by the Canadian Human Rights Act.

As for this latest wrinkle, it was started many years ago and a decision was rendered by the tribunal, even that took years before a final hearing and result.  To oversimplify the issue, the government ignored, or continued to do business as usual, or stalled and stalled.  There were several supplementary tribunal decisions that basically told the government to get off the pot.  This last one (the seventh) finally imposed a financial penalty.
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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2019, 17:24:26 »
I feel like there is more to this story that I can't figure out.  How were they underfunded?  I in what way?  How and what the tribunal look at for their calculations?  Etc...  Give me the backstory.  I need more than just " Canada bad... pay fine"
CBC did a terrible job on this story.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2019, 17:36:21 »
That's alot of money and $40,000 can be life changing.

Curious to see what this does to FN people and reserves.

Will they put money into the infrastructures on reserves and improve their communities? Will it fuel the (arguable) rampant addiction problems on reserves? Will chiefs try and get involved some how?

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2019, 18:00:02 »
My understanding of the issue is such:

The Canadian constitution divides various aspects of government among jurisdictions. Some things are federal, some things are provincial. The feds have things like defense, regulation of seaways, etc. The provinces deal with much more of import to our day to day lives- health, education, welfare and social services, administration of justice, social services, etc.

The Indian Act uniquely identifies particular groups of Canadians for differential treatment. The federal government adopts a paternalistic purview over aboriginal and Indian affairs, and the responsibility for what would normally be provincial matters is, in the case of Indian reserves, pulled upwards into the responsibility of the federal government.

There is a concept in Canadian law called the 'Honour of the Crown' which applies uniquely in the case of aboriginals. The crown, by assuming responsibility for status Indians through the federal Indian Act, has accepted various duties fiduciary and otherwise. The federal government provides healthcare, education, etc. Given that these are normally provincial matters, the quality of services the federal government provides to status Indians on reserve can be contrasted with what provincial governments provide to everyone else. If the federal government can be shown to be distinctly deficient in what it provides to status Indians versus what everyone else gets through provincial provision of services, then an argument can be (and has been) made that the federal government hasnot lived up to its duty.

I would expect there's been a formula developed to look at average length of time in the child welfare system, how federal funding has fallen short per child per year, and what that multiplies out to.
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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2019, 18:04:02 »
That's alot of money and $40,000 can be life changing.

Curious to see what this does to FN people and reserves.

Will they put money into the infrastructures on reserves and improve their communities? Will it fuel the (arguable) rampant addiction problems on reserves? Will chiefs try and get involved some how?

Based on what I saw first hand in Iqaluit, when they paid people out for Residential School settlements, it might cause even more trouble.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 18:43:18 »
I feel like there is more to this story that I can't figure out.  How were they underfunded?  I in what way?  How and what the tribunal look at for their calculations?  Etc...  Give me the backstory.  I need more than just " Canada bad... pay fine"
CBC did a terrible job on this story.

Try reading this ruling dated February 21, 2019.  It doesn't include anything about penalties but it is the most recently dated item on either the CHRT or Canlii sites dealing with the matter.  It may be a bit much to wade through quickly and may not explain all the previous shenanigans.  For a more concise explanation of how this started, I'll quote this from a motion dated 2011-03-14 (that was about a year into the process - the motion was to whether the CHRT had jurisdiction to hear the complaint).

Quote
II.   WHAT IS THIS COMPLAINT ABOUT?

The Society and the AFN assert that thousands of First Nations children living on Canadian reserves do not receive adequate funding of child welfare.  Child welfare for children residing off reserve is funded by provinces or territories. The complainants seek that INAC be required by law to fund child welfare to similar levels as provinces and territories.  They allege that a First Nations child residing on a reserve receives less child welfare and protection services than another Canadian child, possibly living across the highway, not on reserve. They allege that the provinces fund child welfare to a significantly greater extent than INAC does and that INAC’s underfunding results in a systemic discriminatory impact upon the lives of Aboriginal children residing on reserves.  They allege that this underfunding results in culturally inappropriate delivery of such services contrary to the purposes of the funding program.  They seek that the Tribunal order INAC to increase funding by 109 million dollars per year to address existing funding shortfalls.

Specifically, the complaint alleges that a funding formula, Directive 20-1, Chapter 5 (Directive 20-1) contravenes s. 5 of the Act in that registered First Nations children and families resident on reserve are provided with inequitable levels of child welfare because of their race and national, ethnic origin as compared to non-Aboriginal and other children residing off reserve.  The particulars / pleadings filed by the complainant group broaden the discrimination allegation to include the INAC First Nations Child and Family Services Program (FNCFS Program), that includes both Directive 20-1 and the Enhanced Prevention-Focused Approach funding (EPFA), and the funding INAC provides in Ontario pursuant to the Memorandum of Agreement Respecting Welfare Programs for Indians known as the 1965 Welfare Agreement (1965 Agt.).

And since you'll see "Jordan's Principle" mentioned a lot, Wikipedia is as good as anything else for a shallow background.
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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 18:49:00 »
Ok here’s one as a Newfoundlander I was never aloud to hold a government job more than 20 weeks. Do you think I have a case?

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 19:14:49 »
"because of their race and national, ethnic origin"

Funding disparities (discrimination) exist because of the system of governance.  This is bound to occasionally happen with responsibilities divided as they are.  National / ethnic origin merely determines in which system a person's fate is determined.

Reworking the Canadian constitutional structure so that every community is part of the province in which it sits is probably a political leap too great for many to take, but surely a deal could be worked out in which the provinces deliver the programs to all of their respective residents and then invoice the feds for the latter's share.
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Offline AbdullahD

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2019, 20:05:19 »
Based on what I saw first hand in Iqaluit, when they paid people out for Residential School settlements, it might cause even more trouble.

I sadly, am of the opinion it will cause more trouble possibly too.

I used to do door to door sales, selling vacuums of all things.. Kirby's if you must now and our unscrupulous manager knew when certain reservations would be getting paid out from oil royalties etc. So our trips were planned to arrive just before those payments happened and they would arrange for the payment to come out right after they were paid. Any rate, we were selling things, to people who would never use it and some of these families with 5, 6 or 7 kids would be getting a significant paycheque every year... and subsequently waste it all.

Taking that experience and coupling it with stories of people who win the lottery and wind up broke a few years later... I think this financial windfall will be wasted in a lot of homes. But in some, I think, it will change their lives for the better.. but not the majority.

Now being narcissistic, a prick and possibly a bigot to boot if I'm not already... if you give a whole bunch of people, fourty thousand dollars who are more then likely just going to blow it all on consumer products etc... it could be an evil way to stimulate the economy.

Abdullah

P.s please delete if this is to hard line, I am sorry. My opinion only.

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2019, 20:15:59 »
If I understand correctly, what they actually wanted was INAC to increase the funding so it would be comparable to provincial levels, but the CHRT ordered individual payouts?  I'm assuming that's some kin of jurisdiction thing as they have no authority to make anyone increase a budget and can only do one time payments.

Even if they increase the funding, no real guarantee they will get comparable services. Have yet to have a dealing with INAC where I've been anything but unimpressed with their grasp of.. well, pretty much anything. Maybe it was a small sample of detritus that got promoted to exile positions, but easily the least impressive of any Gov department I've had to deal with by a massively large margin. They seem to have a huge amount of waste on excessive bureaucracy (even in context of military procurement) so there are a lot of gears spinning without anyone clutching it in to drive.

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2019, 20:29:01 »
I used to do door to door sales, selling vacuums of all things.. Kirby's if you must now

Abdullah, the Kirby men were even harder to get rid of then the door-to-door Bible salesmen!  :)

But in some, I think, it will change their lives for the better.. but not the majority.

Hopefully for the better.

as a Newfoundlander I was never aloud to hold a government job more than 20 weeks.

ok. I'll bite. Why was that?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 20:32:33 by mariomike »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2019, 20:31:56 »
Quote from: Abdullah


P.s please delete if this is to hard line, I am sorry. My opinion only.

My first thought was that now there's going to be even less tax money to contemplate buying firearms off gun owners- better for us.

At least this story gives the CHR crew a little more legitimacy than their last one.
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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2019, 20:35:00 »
ok. I'll bite. Why was that?

I think its an EI joke...

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2019, 20:35:52 »
I think its an EI joke...

ok Thanks!  :)

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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2019, 21:00:54 »
Wouldn’t it be weird if the price of loaded pick up trucks were to temporarily drop to 40k, and the price of quads, side by sides and snowmobiles to double.  In all seriousness, 40K is not enough for the fuckery the system put them through, and certainly is not the answer. 

On the other hand, does anybody not see a problem with cash payouts to some of the parents who sat around and did little to help their children, while they were busy having many more children. What is the line of departure from individual responsibility, simply cannot keep holding on to the notion that everything wrong or right is steerable towards compensation. Comp the kids, 100% and only 1 time. 
Comp everybody in direct lineage? (Parents, grandparents) I’m not so sure about that. Why not extra compensation for grandparents who looked after multiple grandchildren  - I’d favour that as well but take it out of the parents share.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 21:19:15 by Cloud Cover »
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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2019, 21:51:42 »
Wouldn’t it be weird if the price of loaded pick up trucks were to temporarily drop to 40k, and the price of quads, side by sides and snowmobiles to double.  In all seriousness, 40K is not enough for the fuckery the system put them through, and certainly is not the answer. 

On the other hand, does anybody not see a problem with cash payouts to some of the parents who sat around and did little to help their children, while they were busy having many more children. What is the line of departure from individual responsibility, simply cannot keep holding on to the notion that everything wrong or right is steerable towards compensation. Comp the kids, 100% and only 1 time. 
Comp everybody in direct lineage? (Parents, grandparents) I’m not so sure about that. Why not extra compensation for grandparents who looked after multiple grandchildren  - I’d favour that as well but take it out of the parents share.

This is an indictment of how well the federal government looks after its most vulnerable 'dependents': on reserve children specifically.

The payout is one thing. What's the longer term action to improve, I wonder? Without that, this is just a drive by 'cash crop dusting' exercise to absolve blame.... and then go back to being awful at looking after people.
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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2019, 22:16:53 »
They do have a plan!! According  to the CBC article it’s in delivery mode since 2016. Still I think it’s safe to say door #2 for another $XXK a few more times.

Note also this applies only as far back as Jan 1:2006.   So this is obviously all Stephen Harpers fault.
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Re: Ottawa must pay 40,000 to every First Nations child in welfare system
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2019, 18:02:30 »
No cheque for you ! ( until sufficient time after the election) : https://election.ctvnews.ca/mobile/feds-appeal-ruling-ordering-compensation-for-first-nations-children-denied-welfare-services-1.4624397


“The ruling comes just weeks before the Oct. 21 federal election. The issue has been raised on the campaign trail, with Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer saying yesterday that he would seek a judicial review of the compensation, if he were in power.

NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh weighed in shortly after the news broke. He said Prime Minister Justin Trudeau "should have accepted this ruling."

"Mr. Trudeau has failed Indigenous kids once again," said Singh”
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