Topic: VOT from Infantry to Pilot [Merged]

[PilotBob]

So, I've got quite the complicated situation: I am currently a pilot waiting to start my training under the CEOTP AEAD entrance program. This means that I am a commissioned 2 Lt with no degree. I have completed BMOQ and that's it for my military training.

After spending some time at 408 THS on OJT, it seems to me that all pilots do their whole careers is update their qualifications and study for things. Personally, I did the CEOTP program because I'm not a huge fan of school, so the idea of doing what basically looks like school for my career no longer sounds very appealing, and with all the cutbacks, it seems like most pilots are just reaching their yearly minimums for hours. I also realized during BMOQ that I kinda enjoyed the lack of comfort in the field, and I'd never enjoyed anything more than when I got to lead a group of people on a mission. This has got me to thinking about being an infantry officer. I am aware that they also do paperwork, but is it at all the same as what pilots are doing? Is studying and constant re-certifications also part of the job?

What I'd like to know is this:

1. Is a VOT possible in my situation? Considering I don't have a degree under my belt, ROTP or CEOTP would likely be my only options (short of releasing and getting one myself). Is CEOTP an option for infantry officers? I haven't seen anything to say otherwise. If I did make the transfer, would I lose my commission and be demoted to an O.Cdt again until I got my degree?

2. If someone could manage a guess, how much more physical/hands on would infantry officer be than a pilot while in garrison? How often do you go to the field? I know some administrative stuff is actually helping your platoon in a pretty upfront way with their financial, family or legal problems. How much does that happen? And how much more time would a pilot be away from home than combat arms?

I understand that these are hard things to give generic answers to, but any help would be really appreciated.

[George Wallace]

......... Personally, I did the CEOTP program because I'm not a huge fan of school, so the idea of doing what basically looks like school for my career no longer sounds very appealing,

You want to hear the bad news?  You're going to get it anyway.  In the CAF, officers and NCMs both spend a lot of time on courses, in class, studying.  There is no escaping it. 

[PilotBob]

I'm aware of that, but obviously some trades have more of that than others, and it seems as though pilots get a whole lot of that kind of stuff. I'm asking if someone can compare that to infantry officers. I don't mind learning things, I'm not a tard, but what pilots do seems particularly school-ish, and I'm sure it's not like that in every trade.

[Ostrozac]

Two points from me:

First, an infantry officer that is actually in an infantry battalion does usually get to spend significant time in the field doing the job with the troops. But by the last estimate I saw, only about 25% of the infantry officer MOSID were actually posted on strength of one of the nine battalions. The other 75% of infantry officers were busy being staff officers, instructing, and administrating. So by a very rough order of magnitude, an infantry officer can expect to spend three quarters of his career doing something other than being in an infantry battalion. Being the G5 of a brigade can be very satisfying work -- but it's not the same experience as being a platoon commander.

Second, except for Pilots, no one is really looking for CEOTP right now. Overall officer enrolment is down, retention is up, and the various occupation managers are waking up to the fact that all these CEOTP officers floating around the system don't have degrees, aren't promotable to Major, and that the plan to have them do night school courses out of their rucksacks in Kabul and Wainwright was probably a really stupid idea. The SIP forecast for CEOTP hires in the future is very, very grim. I think that some MOSIDs might be closed to CEOTP hire for quite a while -- maybe a decade.

[PilotBob]

Thanks, that's helpful information. What kind of instructing are you talking about? Do you mean different courses? Would that not be very similar to field work? What about after you do a tour away from a battalion and potentially come back as a Captain or Major, what type of role would you play? You would still deploy to the field, no? Would you still take part in exercises etc?

I'm kinda aware that CEOTP isn't the greatest entry option, so I'm also open to ROTP.

Any more information anyone can throw out there for me would be amazing. I know its a somewhat unique situation, but if anyone has gone through something similar I would love to hear what happened.

Thanks.

[PilotBob]

I just found this on another topic:

BTL Officers – after BMOQ. May apply at any time after completion of BMOQ and prior to completion of occupation training. May only request from the monthly reassignment list and may be limited out of understrength occupations;

What is the monthly reassignment list, and where could I find this? I'm assuming the fact that I don't have my degree would further complicate this, but it's worth looking into. Can anyone expand on this?

[Eye In The Sky]

For that you will have to talk to a BPSO/PSO staff.  It is not published on the DIN anymore.

The good thing is while you are there, you can talk to them for official CAF answers on this as they are the SMEs. 

Just to add, the 'idea' of an Infantry Officer might seem cool and all, but just be aware that your experience(s) in Farhnam don't necessarily line up with the real life of an Infantry platoon leader, etc.

Despite your end choice, my last is that either path will require a lot of hard work.

Good luck!

[PilotBob]

Thanks. I set up an appointment with them.

Just to add, the 'idea' of an Infantry Officer might seem cool and all, but just be aware that your experience(s) in Farhnam don't necessarily line up with the real life of an Infantry platoon leader, etc.

This is one of those things where I know it's not the same, I just don't know exactly how it is different. Do you think there is any possibility I could shadow one for a day or two? I'm at CFB Edmonton. Any ideas if that is worth sending up my CoC?

Thanks for the tips.

[DAA]

Okay, now for the bad news.

As a CEOTP-AEAD Pilot person (with no undergrad Degree), your options are few and CEOTP is not one.   Instances of academic/training failures were not thoroughly considered when this specific program was introduced and there are NO options available for reassignment to another Officer occupation.  So it's sort of "In for a penny, in for a pound."

You are venturing into "uncharted" waters, so don't be surpirsed if even your local PSO can't give you answers.

At the end of the day, you will either have to revert to an NCM occupation or if you wish to pursue a career as an Officer, possibly release and re-apply after 12 months.

[s2184]

I am surprised by your insights. While thousands desperate to get into the pilot position, you just want to throw it away & switch it to something else.

If I were you, I would just suck it up the hardship & continue to stay in the pilot training. I know it is easier to say than being in the actual situation to face it, but that should explain the right mind set - Fight for Survival. Remember you are not just an ordinary person. You are someone especial. 

If you just look for comfort why you joined in CF as a pilot at the first place?

As what George said, you never escape from studying. Doesn't matter if you are in CF or not, you cannot be successful in your career unless you continuously learn.

I always tell my nieces & nephews, look for ways to enjoy the experience of studying. If you find ways to enjoy your learning experience,  you can lift up yourself above and beyond your limitations.

Good wishes on your on  your endeavours anyway. 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm aware of that, but obviously some trades have more of that than others, and it seems as though pilots get a whole lot of that kind of stuff. I'm asking if someone can compare that to infantry officers. I don't mind learning things, I'm not a tard, but what pilots do seems particularly school-ish, and I'm sure it's not like that in every trade.

Soooooo .... let me get this straight:

You are smart enough to be a pilot, potentially anyways

You think you might like the infantry because they generally treat us like cannon fodder (the original definition of Infantry) and your body will only hold out until you're about 40, after which if you are lucky you will develop a long and close relationship with various sections of the medical system

Oh, so I guess you're not smart enough to be a pilot 

Smarten up:
1) Be a pilot
2) Take up mountaineering/backcountry travel as a hobby

[PilotBob]

As a CEOTP-AEAD Pilot person (with no undergrad Degree), your options are few and CEOTP is not one.   Instances of academic/training failures were not thoroughly considered when this specific program was introduced and there are NO options available for reassignment to another Officer occupation.  So it's sort of "In for a penny, in for a pound."

At the end of the day, you will either have to revert to an NCM occupation or if you wish to pursue a career as an Officer, possibly release and re-apply after 12 months.

Where are you getting That information? I know someone from the CEOTP - AEAD program who failed phase 1 flight training and other officer occupations were available to him, he just didn't take them.

Here (http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/010-01_e.asp) I read that an untrained officer without a degree may only enter a CEOTP program. (I'm not on DWAN right now, so I can't quote the exact text). That should include my entry program, right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are venturing into "uncharted" waters, so don't be surpirsed if even your local PSO can't give you answers.

You're right on that point. I'm hoping that someone knows something. The recruitment centre was a nightmare for this program because no one knew anything.

[Dimsum]

Soooooo .... let me get this straight:

You are smart enough to be a pilot, potentially anyways

You think you might like the infantry because they generally treat us like cannon fodder (the original definition of Infantry) and your body will only hold out until you're about 40, after which if you are lucky you will develop a long and close relationship with various sections of the medical system

Oh, so I guess you're not smart enough to be a pilot 

Smarten up:
1) Be a pilot
2) Take up mountaineering/backcountry travel as a hobby

I'm echoing Daftandbarmy here.   Shadow an Inf O if you want (the extra experience can't hurt), but I'd think very long and hard before signing that VOT or whatever it is. 

Just a thought:  How many Pilots have broken bodies at age 40?  Livers, maybe.... 

[DAA]

Where are you getting That information? I know someone from the CEOTP - AEAD program who failed phase 1 flight training and other officer occupations were available to him, he just didn't take them.

Here (http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/010-01_e.asp) I read that an untrained officer without a degree may only enter a CEOTP program. (I'm not on DWAN right now, so I can't quote the exact text). That should include my entry program, right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're right on that point. I'm hoping that someone knows something. The recruitment centre was a nightmare for this program because no one knew anything.

Inorder to be offered a VOR to another Officer Occupation, you must meet the same academic standards as that of a "DEO Officer" applicant, which is basically "possess a suitable undergrad degree", which you don't have.  The only other possible option would be to transfer to another Officer Occupation under CEOTP, the ONLY CEOTP Occupation available is "CEOTP-AEAD Pilot".   The RCAF eliminated "all" CEOTP Officer Intake programs, except for AEAD back in Apr 13.  Like I said, CEOTP-AEAD Pilot is a relatively new program and has it's growing pains, one of which was the after thought of "What do we do, if someone doesn't meet the training standards?"   

Once your back on DWAN, have a look at AFO 5007-9 <-----specific to the RCAF) which amplifies DAOD 5002-6.

[PilotBob]

I read through AFO 5007-9, but I don't see your proof there. DAOD 5002-9 states "An applicant to the CEOTP may be a Regular Force officer transferring from another officer enrolment plan". The AFO you referenced is only reffering to the RCAF. I am aware that CEOTP is rare these days, but I haven't heard that it has become eliminated comepletely.

Where did you read this?

Inorder to be offered a VOR to another Officer Occupation, you must meet the same academic standards as that of a "DEO Officer" applicant, which is basically "possess a suitable undergrad degree"

[DAA]

I read through AFO 5007-9, but I don't see your proof there. DAOD 5002-9 states "An applicant to the CEOTP may be a Regular Force officer transferring from another officer enrolment plan". The AFO you referenced is only reffering to the RCAF. I am aware that CEOTP is rare these days, but I haven't heard that it has become eliminated comepletely.

Where did you read this?

On the DWAN, search for the DGMP Website, specifically DPGR.  Under Selection Aides, it will list all the MOS ID Entry Standards.  You can see for yourself.....

[Ostrozac]

I am aware that CEOTP is rare these days, but I haven't heard that it has become eliminated comepletely.

Based on the Strat Intake Plan, for CEOTP this FY (14/15) there are 48 positions. 42 of them are pilot, 6 are infantry. That's it. No other MOSIDs are forecasting any CEOTP hires.

Next year, it's pretty much the same. 42 pilots, 6 infantry. Also 2 nurses, 2 physios and 2 social workers. (The medical MOSIDs seem strange to see on the CEOTP list -- they may be looking for PAs or Nurse Practioners with experience but no degrees.)

6 Infantry positions a year is not a lot of spots -- especially since there are none for Arty, Armd, Eng -- I would expect those six positions to be enormously competitive.

[DAA]

I read through AFO 5007-9, but I don't see your proof there. DAOD 5002-9 states "An applicant to the CEOTP may be a Regular Force officer transferring from another officer enrolment plan". The AFO you referenced is only reffering to the RCAF. I am aware that CEOTP is rare these days, but I haven't heard that it has become eliminated comepletely.

Where did you read this?

CEOTP only becomes available, when regular enrolments and internal transfer programs (OVOT/CT, etc) fail to meet manning targets, resulting in the potential for a critical manning shortfall for an occupation.  I think the last time I saw an announcement for the CEOTP program was 2011.  Since that time, the CF has not seen the need to use it.  So maybe bad on my part and I should have probably said "The RCAF eliminated the "need" for CEOTP Officer Intake programs, except for AEAD-Pilot" back in Apr 13.  Today, most officers possess an undergrad degree (or higher) and those who don't, normally pursue one on their own time or through the IBDP.

I'm not trying to "prove" anything to you, just providing fair warning and advice of what "might" occur.  At the end of the day, I am sure your local PSO will be able to expand much more on options which will be available to you.  They squirrel away their information, so who knows?  Maybe there just might be a spot or two via CEOTP that is not advertised, for which you could slip into.

Good luck!

[PilotBob]

I'm not trying to "prove" anything to you, just providing fair warning and advice of what "might" occur.

Sorry, I just meant that I didn't understand where that was said in AFO. I wasn't trying to get after you. Bad communication on my part.

Based on the Strat Intake Plan, for CEOTP this FY (14/15) there are 48 positions. 42 of them are pilot, 6 are infantry. That's it. No other MOSIDs are forecasting any CEOTP hires.

Next year, it's pretty much the same. 42 pilots, 6 infantry. Also 2 nurses, 2 physios and 2 social workers. (The medical MOSIDs seem strange to see on the CEOTP list -- they may be looking for PAs or Nurse Practioners with experience but no degrees.)

6 Infantry positions a year is not a lot of spots -- especially since there are none for Arty, Armd, Eng -- I would expect those six positions to be enormously competitive.

Where did you get this info? Is that referring to people joining the CF, or would that also apply to internal Occupational Transfers?

[dapaterson]

Based on the Strat Intake Plan, for CEOTP this FY (14/15) there are 48 positions. 42 of them are pilot, 6 are infantry. That's it. No other MOSIDs are forecasting any CEOTP hires.

Next year, it's pretty much the same. 42 pilots, 6 infantry. Also 2 nurses, 2 physios and 2 social workers. (The medical MOSIDs seem strange to see on the CEOTP list -- they may be looking for PAs or Nurse Practioners with experience but no degrees.)

6 Infantry positions a year is not a lot of spots -- especially since there are none for Arty, Armd, Eng -- I would expect those six positions to be enormously competitive.

Nurse Practicioners are RNs with extended practice, so they couldn't be CEOTP.  A Bachelor's degree is now required to be an RN; CEOTP might be for RPNs or, possibly, grandfathered RNs without degrees.

[Eye In The Sky]

Where did you get this info? Is that referring to people joining the CF, or would that also apply to internal Occupational Transfers?

The SIP.  In the DWAN search engine, search for "Basic Production Documents" and you'll see a few links.

[MAJONES]

For the OP;  If you want to lead people there are opportunities as a pilot.  You just have to be on the look out for them and do a bit of work to seize them.

[ballz]

Based on the Strat Intake Plan, for CEOTP this FY (14/15) there are 48 positions. 42 of them are pilot, 6 are infantry. That's it. No other MOSIDs are forecasting any CEOTP hires.

Is that Strategic Intake Plan available to view? It's odd you mention that because we just had our annual Career Manager brief yesterday and they indicated that CEOTP for the Infantry is nixed. The Infantry Corps is well above the Preferred Manning Limit for Captains, that's not including all the Lts and 2Lts that are currently in Battalions. Given that the CEOTP is a "holy s**t we need people now" type of entry program, doesn't make sense to have any openings for it.

[Ostrozac]

Is that Strategic Intake Plan available to view? It's odd you mention that because we just had our annual Career Manager brief yesterday and they indicated that CEOTP for the Infantry is nixed. The Infantry Corps is well above the Preferred Manning Limit for Captains, that's not including all the Lts and 2Lts that are currently in Battalions. Given that the CEOTP is a "holy s**t we need people now" type of entry program, doesn't make sense to have any openings for it.

The SIP for out-years (the future) is visible here (DWAN-only):  http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmp/dpgr/engraph/reports/description_e.asp?sec=2&report=bpd

I can't speak to what the Infantry Corps actually will do in the future -- but there are numbers on the SIP for Infantry CEOTP (both internal and external) -- maybe the plan is going to be altered, based on what the career manager said. Or perhaps those spots are intended to be used for re-enrollees or skilled CT from the reserves (when the member doesn't have a degree and therefore isn't eligible for DEO).

But I am always happy to see conversation about CEOTP going on. What was once OCTP manages to keep on surviving, despite all attempts to kill it off!

[DAA]

The SIP for out-years (the future) is visible here (DWAN-only):  http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmp/dpgr/engraph/reports/description_e.asp?sec=2&report=bpd

I can't speak to what the Infantry Corps actually will do in the future -- but there are numbers on the SIP for Infantry CEOTP (both internal and external) -- maybe the plan is going to be altered, based on what the career manager said. Or perhaps those spots are intended to be used for re-enrollees or skilled CT from the reserves (when the member doesn't have a degree and therefore isn't eligible for DEO).

But I am always happy to see conversation about CEOTP going on. What was once OCTP manages to keep on surviving, despite all attempts to kill it off!

Just a reminder, the "SIP Out-Years" is a forecasting tool only.  If you look at the 'SIP FY 13-14", you will see that there are NO CEOTP posns available, with the exception of Pilot.