Author Topic: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com  (Read 19812 times)

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Offline CBH99

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 16:58:57 »
Question for you Eye,

Does the P8 represent a huge leap in capability to what our currently upgraded Aurora fleet can do?

Obviously the air-frames are newer, and perhaps that alone is reason to look at replacing our Aurora fleet with the P8.  But in terms of the capability of our recently modernized Aurora, does the P8 offer something that we can't currently do?  (Honest question, and anybody else who is an actual SME like Eye is, feel free to chime in.)


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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2016, 17:08:16 »
I'd have to be honest;  while I've been on/in a USN P-8 before, I didn't see her in action so can't comment with any knowledge on the aircraft mission caps/lims.  I heard some neat things about their radar, I heard some things about bugs they are working out (nothing surprising, new fleet and all).  I heard its a gas pig down low compared to turbo-prop, but...there are arguments on both sides of that.  Quicker to get ONSTA, but not able to remain ONSTA...either way, you have a max weight for what you can carry in your fuel tanks.

And...if I did know any of the caps and lims compared to the Aurora...I wouldn't be able to say on here anyways.   ;)  I've done ops and exercises with them but they keep their hand close to their chest.  I'd have to bow to the front enders (pilots, fight engineers) to speak with knowledge on airframe and engine stuff.

Having said that...with newer aircraft, I'd expect better serviceability rates on the airframe, engines etc.  But...they aren't replacing 1 for 1 with the Orion fleet so...less airframes on the ramp to start off with.

P-8 stuff:   http://www.boeing.com/defense/maritime-surveillance/p-8-poseidon/index.page#/facts and http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/mma/
P-8 Quick Facts

- For the P-8, Boeing uses a first-in-industry in-line production system that leverages the best of Boeing Commercial and Boeing Defense for development and production.
- The P-8 can fly up to 41,000 feet and travel up to 490 knots.
- P-8 offers higher reliability – the 737 has a 99.8 percent dispatch rate, with more than 4,000 aircraft flying, and 6,600+ orders.
- The P-8 is engineered for 25 years/25,000 hours in the harshest maritime flight regimes, including extended operations in icing environments.
- The P-8 can fly in all flight regimes, and can self-deploy up to 4,500 miles from base without refueling.
- Dual CFM-56B commercial engines each provide 27,000 pounds of thrust, greatly enhancing climb and flight characteristics over turboprop equipped aircraft.  (I don't buy this down low and slow where most ASW is likely to happen...but they appear to be spending money on GPS search and kills stores to negate the low/slow time)
- Each engine is equipped with a 180KVA engine driven generator.  Combined with the 90KVA commercial APU, this provides 450KVA of power. P-8 possesses significant growth capacity for equipment with excess onboard power and cooling capacity.
- P-8 has twice the sonobuoy processing capability and can carry 30 percent more sonobuoys than any maritime patrol and reconnaissance aircraft currently flying.  (AFIAK, they have the same acoustic suite as the modernized Aurora)
- P-8 has the ability to control unmanned air vehicles (level 2 control-receive) to extend sensor reach.
- P-8 offers commonality with 737 fleet and other military platforms that use the 737 airframe.

Block 3 Aurora stuff:  http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/aircraft-current/cp-140.page

Maximum speed 750 kilometres per hour (405 knots) 

Range  7,400 kilometres

Endurance  12 hours, with routine planning of 10 to 11 hours. The Aurora has, however, remained airborne for up to 17 hours


I notice its hard to find any info on endurance for the P-8 but...in general I'd say they can be quicker to get to a spot, but can't hang out there as long.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 17:27:43 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 21:51:16 »
Question for you Eye,

Does the P8 represent a huge leap in capability to what our currently upgraded Aurora fleet can do?

Obviously the air-frames are newer, and perhaps that alone is reason to look at replacing our Aurora fleet with the P8.  But in terms of the capability of our recently modernized Aurora, does the P8 offer something that we can't currently do?  (Honest question, and anybody else who is an actual SME like Eye is, feel free to chime in.)

Unless they somehow fixed the lag (however little) in thrust in a turbofan, I'd personally feel better zipping around at low level with turboprops.

I'm anxiously awaiting the GoC announcement that we are getting some  ;D

:rofl:
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 00:29:30 by Dimsum »
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2016, 05:21:43 »
Unless they somehow fixed the lag (however little) in thrust in a turbofan, I'd personally feel better zipping around at low level with turboprops.

Isn't the USN planning on flying ASW missions at 1,500+?





Offline Dimsum

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2016, 09:53:20 »
Isn't the USN planning on flying ASW missions at 1,500+?

Maybe?  I guess without MAD, there's no real point going low.
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Offline BurmaShave

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2016, 10:05:26 »
Maybe?  I guess without MAD, there's no real point going low.

Do you have to be low to deploy sonobuoys? Does the P-8 even have sonobuoys? (I don't know jack about ASW)
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Offline BobSlob

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2016, 10:31:10 »
Do you have to be low to deploy sonobuoys? Does the P-8 even have sonobuoys? (I don't know jack about ASW)

MAD aside, being down low is really only useful for knowing where the sonobuoys actually land. Shorter fall = greater accuracy. If you have buoys that reported back their GPS position... you could fly must higher and more comfortably. I assume the P8 is using the "new" GPS buoys.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2016, 16:23:33 »
Isn't the USN planning on flying ASW missions at 1,500+?

I recall reading something about GPS fish and stuff like that, being dropped (deployed?) from altitude.  Not idea where that is at currently or headed in the future.

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2014/12/p8-high-altitude.html
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 16:37:15 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2016, 16:24:49 »
Maybe?  I guess without MAD, there's no real point going low.

IIRC they were working on MAD "UAVs" being dropped from the plane/controlled from the plane or a surface asset.   :dunno:

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/01/bae-subhunting-drone.html
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 16:36:07 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2016, 16:32:06 »
MAD aside, being down low is really only useful for knowing where the sonobuoys actually land. Shorter fall = greater accuracy. If you have buoys that reported back their GPS position... you could fly must higher and more comfortably. I assume the P8 is using the "new" GPS buoys.

True for ASW...but I know the P-8s guys were doing some low level "VIS-ID" work in the obvious area after JW last year and were down at 200' in the muck like we were and recall a comment about gas guzzling or something along that line.   :nod: 

MAD...always a conversation piece on its worth.  I did one trip out of Sig on a SSN that convinced me 100% MAD is worth its weight.  Always nicer to have 1 extra tool than to be short one...
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2016, 10:42:41 »
that's interesting getting the sub hunters onto a sub, good idea.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2016, 15:38:22 »
Obviously the air-frames are newer, and perhaps that alone is reason to look at replacing our Aurora fleet with the P8. 

In all honesty, I doubt we'll see a P8 at any RCAF Sqn other than to pay a visit.  Whatever replaces the Aurora, I suspect I'll be CRA when it happens.  Not sure about the current CAS, but the one who brought us new mess kits and leather jackets didn't strike me as an individual that was too concerned about LRPA replacement. 
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Offline BobSlob

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2016, 15:57:17 »
In all honesty, I doubt we'll see a P8 at any RCAF Sqn other than to pay a visit.  Whatever replaces the Aurora, I suspect I'll be CRA when it happens.  Not sure about the current CAS, but the one who brought us new mess kits and leather jackets didn't strike me as an individual that was too concerned about LRPA replacement.

My guess... a Bombardier bail-out that'll come with years upon years of delays. But hey, it's made in QueCanada!

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2016, 16:00:13 »
My guess... a Bombardier bail-out that'll come with years upon years of delays. But hey, it's made in QueCanada!

They'll just use the same process at the Cyclone;  you know...streamlined and such.   ;D

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2016, 11:04:59 »
In all honesty, I doubt we'll see a P8 at any RCAF Sqn other than to pay a visit.  Whatever replaces the Aurora, I suspect I'll be CRA when it happens.  Not sure about the current CAS, but the one who brought us new mess kits and leather jackets didn't strike me as an individual that was too concerned about LRPA replacement.

Are there any service centres who repair 737's in Canada? We might not benefit from the airframe build, but possibly service contracts?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2016, 08:35:22 »
I've no idea.  Anyone?
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Offline OTR1

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2016, 16:49:04 »
Re MAD boom question, see article below.

RAAF does not consider this much of an issue. If they did then the P-8s would have been fitted with booms, as per the Indian a/c.


BAE Systems to develop MAD ASW drone to help Navy P-8A find submarines from high altitudes


 ARLINGTON, Va., 14 Jan. 2015.

Anti-submarine warfare (ASW) experts at BAE Systems are developing an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) sensor payload able to look for submerged enemy submarines by detecting small variations in the Earth's magnetic field.

Officials of the U.S. Office of Naval Research (ONR) in Arlington, Va., announced an $8.9 million contract this week to the BAE Systems Electronic Systems segment in Merrimack, N.H., for the High Altitude ASW (HAASW) Unmanned Targeting Air System (UTAS) program for the Navy Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol jet.

HAASW UTAS seeks to integrate a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) and algorithms for use on an air-launched drone that the P-8A will use to detect and pinpoint enemy submarines.

A MAD instrument detects minute variations in the Earth's magnetic field. A submerged submarine represents a mass of ferromagnetic material that creates a detectable disturbance in the Earth's magnetic field.

The Navy's predecessor to the P-8A -- the Lockheed Martin P-3 Orion four-engine turboprop aircraft -- has a MAD sensor attached to the back that looks like a large stinger that protrudes backward from the plane's tail.


Whole article at the link, here - http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/01/bae-subhunting-drone.html

Offline Colin P

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2016, 17:35:41 »
problem with a UAV is how many do you get to deploy, then what when you run out? The cost of a MAD search just jumped and likely there will never be enough UAV in the system to keep you stocked.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2016, 18:28:35 »
I'll add...no one has ever used MAD this way so...I don't know how it will work out.  MAD isn't so much a search sensor as it is a confirmation one most of the time...but I've been hot on a SSN with MAD when the wetties had not so much luck.  As I've always said, better to have and not need...for the cost/weight of it...better to have it.  With you.  On a boom.   :2c:
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2016, 18:54:04 »
most of the time...but I've been hot on a SSN with MAD when the wetties had not so much luck. 

It's all about buoy depths, SLD, ambient noise levels, and operator setup.  The one thing I will mention is that with a MAD UAV how would you use that information to setup for an attack?

Offline OTR1

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2016, 17:34:28 »
A chum at Edinburgh reports that first P-8 due there any time now.  :)

Offline OTR1

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2016, 16:58:15 »
Are they laid out inside similar to the USN P-8s?
Pic attached, taken yesterday when first RAAF P-8 got the VIP arrival in Oz.  8)

Report here - http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/11/first-raaf-p-8a-arrival-marks-beginning-of-a-5th-gen-maritime-surveillance-force/

BTW also to hand was RN 1SL Sir Philip Jones: amazing how many Brits have called and met Oz oppos since late June. For the past 43 years everyone's been wondering if they'd lost the phone number, or sumfink.....


Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2016, 01:33:21 »
If that view is from the main cabin door looking aft, port side then it looks the same.   Want those displays.   Wouldn't mind playing with the RADAR some either.
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Australia to buy P-8A Poseidon - News.com
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2016, 03:01:23 »
From the RAAF FB page:

Quote
In an Australian first, yesterday we captured a historical event - a Neptune, Catalina, AP-3C Orion and P-8A Poseidon aircraft - flew over Adelaide together to mark the start of a new era for your Air Force.

Representing four generations of aircraft flown by Number 11 Squadron, the flypast was to celebrate the arrival of the first P-8A Poseidon to RAAF Base Edinburgh.

During the Air Force’s transition to the P-8A Poseidon, the AP-3C Orion will continue to operate from RAAF Base Edinburgh, providing maritime surveillance operations across the globe.

By 2022, twelve aircraft will be based at RAAF Base Edinburgh, with an additional three to be acquired as part of the Government's 2016 Defence White Paper commitment.

https://www.facebook.com/RoyalAustralianAirForce/posts/10154388357752639
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."