Author Topic: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?  (Read 73291 times)

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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2014, 23:49:04 »
I am concerned about the Int Branch desire to grow and expand regardless of need or ability
I know they used to have a MWO that put effort into teaching analysis - "thinking about thinking."

Sorry, but I haven't seen a lot of it coming from the Int world on operations.

/tangent

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2014, 00:17:47 »
Sorry, but I haven't seen a lot of it coming from the Int world on operations.

/tangent

I've worked in it, and you're spot on save for a few blight lights that are shoved in a corner somewhere.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2014, 00:23:08 »
... save for a few blight lights ....
Freudian typo?   ;)

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2014, 15:34:26 »
What NAVRES needs to move away from is the happy place it inhabited when it took over the manning of the Kingston-class: essentially running a small shadow-navy with it's own parallel universe of "Occupation Managers" and "Branch Advisors" who could make training changes based on the needs of the Kingston-class in isolation. This culture spilled over to its Log and Int branch trades, but these are now being swiftly brought back into line, at least partially aided by the fact that those trades have reserve components in other environments. In fact these so-called NAVRES "Occupation Managers" and "Branch Advisors" need to recognize that what the are in a One Navy context is "Reserve Advisors" on their trade/branch.

Wow.  Never knew that...talk about needless excess HR management.  And I thought the Army had it bad with parallel Res chains in the Div and National HQ, but at least occupational management is under one roof.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Monsoon

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2014, 19:27:44 »
Wow.  Never knew that...talk about needless excess HR management.  And I thought the Army had it bad with parallel Res chains in the Div and National HQ, but at least occupational management is under one roof.
Well, to be fair those Branch/Occupation Advisors are class "A" positions, and positions that do indeed need to exist as reserve advisors to the branch/trade. The problem now is in how they see their role and who they work predominantly with (i.e. not with the RCN-level branch/occupation advisors). Once that realignment happens, things will be better positioned for success.

Offline Mike5

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2014, 12:13:24 »
The discussion seems constrained by existing rules and approaches.  Consider something outside the box:

- In the major centres you have a supply of skilled tradespeople and professionals, who are largely available evenings, weekends and two to four weeks a year.  What could you do with a pool of  surgeons / criminal lawyers / firefighters / mechanics / accountants if you only ever had them evenings / weekends / one month a year?  Are there things that the RCN would like to do -- things that are not being done now but would further the mission of the RCN -- and do not require extended training and annual committments of four months of seatime?

- If the answer is 'No, everything the RCN should do unfortunately requires extended periods away', then the RCN should probably focus Reserve recruiting efforts on the only demographic that can consistently deliver extended periods away from work: teachers and other similar seasonal workers.

Rather then 'One Navy'  I would like to see a 'Greater Navy' with a broader scope of operations.  I am WAY outside my lane here so would appreciate critical thoughts,

Regards,
Velox Versutus Vigilans

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2014, 14:23:23 »
The discussion seems constrained by existing rules and approaches.  Consider something outside the box:

- In the major centres you have a supply of skilled tradespeople and professionals, who are largely available evenings, weekends and two to four weeks a year.  What could you do with a pool of  surgeons / criminal lawyers / firefighters / mechanics / accountants if you only ever had them evenings / weekends / one month a year?  Are there things that the RCN would like to do -- things that are not being done now but would further the mission of the RCN -- and do not require extended training and annual committments of four months of seatime?

- If the answer is 'No, everything the RCN should do unfortunately requires extended periods away', then the RCN should probably focus Reserve recruiting efforts on the only demographic that can consistently deliver extended periods away from work: teachers and other similar seasonal workers.

Rather then 'One Navy'  I would like to see a 'Greater Navy' with a broader scope of operations.  I am WAY outside my lane here so would appreciate critical thoughts,

Regards,

When I joined we saw quite a few teachers and lawyers join usually as officers and they were able to deploy for a few months during the summer. The biggest demographic is students that did the training nights and deployed for several months during the summer to make money for school. This worked on the old Gate Vessels, they only really sailed during the summer, except for the "Gate Vessel" weekends during the year. The Gates did their thing (basic seamanship) and we were known as summer shads or weekend warriors and generally lacked any respect from the regs. With the MCDV's we were now given an operational role and deployed with mostly full time and a few part time pers and during the summer we get the students. Most of us full time people want to stay and won't go back to the units. If the regs were smart we would be rolled over to the regs on a 5 or 10 year contract and made class specific or until we complete delta training to go the rest of the fleet. This way some billets would not have to be manned by the major ships, we could even continue on to A/OPS when the KIN class are paid off. Along with not wanting to lose our employmemt, I don't want to see a reversal of the hard won respect the MCDV pers have from the regs now. Going back to a part time organization, that does the odd ORCA weekend and is not allowed to progress in the mainstream is shortsighted, done right there is room for both.
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All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2016, 15:15:14 »
Saw this in my father's papers from the war. Not sure who wrote it. He served on HMCS FUNDY ( J88 ),  HMCS LOCKEPORT ( J100 ), HMCS UNGAVA ( J149 ), HMCS FORT ERIE ( K670 ) and enjoyed traveling to Art Apps naval reunions across Canada. He hosted one year in Toronto, and I got to meet some of them.
I think it was one of the songs they sang?

This poem / song is about the wartime  Canadian Naval Reserve. Not the present day. It is posted for historical interest only. Posted "as is" ( a bit "salty" in parts. I XX'd one particular word I thought was in poor taste. )

THE SWAN SONG OF THE RESERVIST

The war's over and we're in clover
     We leave the job to you;
This is no guff, it's safe enough,
     We've shown you what to do.

With telescopes at proper slopes,
     And hankies up your sleeves,
Just pace the decks of painted wrecks.
     In jackets made at Gieves.

With brand new ships and salty dips,
     With half rings gained ashore,
Don't tell us how to do it now,
     Or how you won the war.

Oh - it's V.R.'s for the V.R.'s,
     And Gins for the R.C.N.
Who stayed ashore throughout the war,
     And now sail forth again.

The Winters cruise and lots of booze,
     And awnings aft and fore;
Is all you'll do the whole year through,
     Till you go back ashore.

To buxom gXXh with lots of cash,
     And scheming maiden aunts,
You shoot the flannel about the channel,
     And hostile coasts of France.

Lord God Almighty you've never seen Blighty,
     Where did that accent come from?
It must be schools and manning pools
     And draughts of pusser rum.

From the V.R.'s and the N.R.'s
     Here's a toast to the R.C.N.
Come times of stress and deep duress
     We'll take the strain again.

Author unknown.

Note: V.R. during the war did not mean what it does now.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 18:03:27 by mariomike »

Offline S.M.A.

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2016, 00:45:39 »
A new role for the naval reserves?

Naval Today

Quote
New security unit to protect Canadian Navy ships on deployment

The Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) is developing a new capability called the Naval Security Team (NST) that will be tasked with protecting Canadian Navy ships and sailors while on deployment.

According to the navy, NST will be composed primarily of naval reservists and will include a full-time command team to ensure personnel, training and equipment are available for deployment.

(...SNIPPED)
Our Country
--------------------------------
"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
-------------------------------------------
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2016, 08:30:55 »
Not really a new role, more like an extension of an existing one: An enhanced harbour defence Unit, so to speak. I suspect it would be something akin to the difference between a ship's boarding team and the new Enhanced Naval Boarding Party Team 1.

What worries me far more in this scheme is the maintenance of the operational readiness level. I just can't see that level of performance being maintained with part time reservists. First of all, if you trained 30 to 50 actual "part-time" reservists, you would not be able to deploy more than about ten to fifteen of them on less than 6 months notice, and even then. Even for long planned exercises, we had to build up some harbour defence team with members from other teams to fill the ranks.

On the other hand, if you select those 30 to 50, train them up to high standard and keep them active for available service, you are creating yet another reserve "permanent" manned situation, like the MCDV.

I have asked the question before, and never got a proper response: At which point does a reservist who spends his life in actual service become a regular?

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2016, 08:37:50 »
...."part-time" reservists, you would not be able to deploy more than about ten to fifteen of them on less than 6 months notice, and even then.
But they "will include a full-time command team....".  That ensures the HQ staff is good to go, and keeps some Officers and Chiefs off of the street corners.   :nod:

 I wonder what their badges will look like?   :pop:

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2016, 08:54:49 »
Probably a good question for this 45-pager,

Component Transfers (Reserve to Regular): Q&A

My question was more philosophical than practical.

What I want to understand is why we keep creating tasks/units that obviously require to be available and standing 365/6 days a year, then man them with "reservists' who obviously are making this a career, with the full knowledge that this is what we are doing or that it is how it will end up. Why not do the staffing required to just make those task/units part of the permanent establishment and hire real regulars to man them?

Otherwise, when a large portion of them are out serving full time, IMHO, you cease to have a reserve because it cannot be called out in an emergency.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2016, 09:02:56 »
Why not do the staffing required to just make those task/units part of the permanent establishment and hire real regulars to man them?

Part-timers are cheaper? They can be sent back to Class A any time the service choses to do so.

Otherwise, when a large portion of them are out serving full time, IMHO, you cease to have a reserve because it cannot be called out in an emergency.

aka A lack of "Surge Capacity".  :)

« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 09:18:32 by mariomike »

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2016, 09:29:08 »
I have asked the question before, and never got a proper response: At which point does a reservist who spends his life in actual service become a regular?

I think you know the answer to that question. 

The employability and deploy-ability of a full time reservist and a regular force member are "oceans apart".  Thought I would keep it nautical for you ;)

As for this unit, sounds interesting.  I was planning on retiring in 2020 and going Army reserve (the RCN make me :stars:) but this might be "neat".
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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2016, 09:43:57 »
This a capability that been talked about for many years and makes perfect sense. There are many reservists around with Port Security experience that plays well with what the intended purpose of this unit. As well much of this training can be conducted in house at certain units. These deployed Class C members are under the same rules as any regular force deployed member.
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Offline bLUE fOX

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2016, 09:44:05 »
But they "will include a full-time command team....".  That ensures the HQ staff is good to go, and keeps some Officers and Chiefs off of the street corners.   :nod:

 I wonder what their badges will look like?   :pop:

And let's be fair, between press gangs and other unsavoury activities, this is the best place for them really.
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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2016, 09:51:42 »
Hold on.... wasn't the Port Security details that were created following 9/11 and were then supplementing security at the gates and on the water for years afterwards, killed off in pursuit of paring down costs to satisfy shrinking budgets in the lead up to the last general election?  If they were too expensive to maintain then, then how the hell are they going to be less expensive now? 

I too, think this was a great role for the Reserves.  Would be fine with seeing it come to pass as it role that needs to be filled once again.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2016, 10:07:53 »
Port Security sounds a bit like,

Airfield defence role for PRes?
9 pages.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2016, 10:23:40 »
Port Security sounds a bit like,

Airfield defence role for PRes?
9 pages.
Except this isn't Port Security;  this is a unit intended to protect Canadian Navy ships on deployment

I can't recall the last time we deployed an airfield.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2016, 10:34:07 »
With the caveat, also, that the Naval Reserve has been in the port security game for a little over twenty years now.

It started before 9/11. The Harbour Defence Units evolved out of the Coastal Defence Organization and were always meant to be deployable forces. 9/11 just happen to make their first actual deployment a deployment to our own home harbour by sheer coincidence, until the proper materiel and personnel could be acquired and developed by the regular force to ensure ongoing port protection in halifax and Esquimalt.

Which is why I conclude that this is just an extra evolution of the existing task of the NR.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2016, 10:38:08 »
this is a unit intended to protect Canadian Navy ships on deployment

From what I read in Airfield defence role for PRes?, it discussed a unit intended to protect RCAF aircraft on deployment.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 10:47:07 by mariomike »

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2016, 10:42:43 »
I have asked the question before, and never got a proper response: At which point does a reservist who spends his life in actual service become a regular?

Well, the NDA refers to continuing, full-time service as being the difference between Reg F and Res F.  And somehow, a 3 year engagement for a Reg F member meets that definition, but a three-year period of full-time service for a Res F member does not.

We have de facto created a "Reg F lite", with different pay and different terms of service.  Perhaps that's what needs to be institutionalized: a Reg F with different TOS and different pay rates to replace the long term full-time Res F.
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2016, 11:00:56 »
From what I read in Airfield defence role for PRes?, it discussed a unit intended to protect RCAF aircraft on deployment.
I stand corrected; a lesson on staying within arcs.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2016, 11:18:06 »
I stand corrected; a lesson on staying within arcs.

I would say your arc is considerably wider than mine!  :)

Offline MCG

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Re: Is the Canadian Naval Reserve all but finished?
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2016, 11:57:49 »
From what I read in Airfield defence role for PRes?, it discussed a unit intended to protect RCAF aircraft on deployment.
The thread described an idea to create a PRes force to defend airfields.  Thread participants conceived a different role for a rapid deployment PSD type group to protect aircraft and aircrew.

Debate orbited around the ideas that existing infantry are capable of filling the first role (which is what the RCAF was looking at), and Reg F infantry in high readiness should be called for short notice requirements.  This was countered with arguments that infantry are not well suited to the point (aircraft) and personnel security tasks, and that SOF like rapid responses would be required to keep pace with the short notice at which aircraft could be dispatched internationally and Reg F infantry just are not up to that quick a launch ... of course, PRes PSDs would also not be that quickly responsive either so ...

In any case, that thread was two different ideas talking past each other.