Author Topic: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment  (Read 28330 times)

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Offline WPJ

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Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« on: March 15, 2014, 23:01:59 »
Hey all, I have been looking around a while and I wanted to see if anyone knows were to get some cad pat ar kit?

Looking for the tac vest, arid rain suit, any arid molle pouches, arid back packs large or small.

Pm me for details

Offline BadgerTrapper

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2014, 23:17:21 »
Obtaining genuine CF cadpat is a massive can of worms that you probably don't want to open. For the most part, actual cadpat issued gear is controlled and not to be sold. With that said, it's easy enough to obtain that kit through civi retailers like Soldier gear or CP Gear. Quick google search will provide results, i.e.

http://www.soldier-gear.ca/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=35&products_id=250


Offline MeatheadMick

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2014, 16:19:42 »
CP Gear has a lot of good Arid CADPAT stuff too... and a lot of it has more LCF than the actual issued kit. The biggest benefit is you won't be in possession of stolen property if you choose to get the "knock off"s :)
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Offline WPJ

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2014, 17:52:41 »
yes I understand that items are controlled but once it makes it to surplus its legal to obtain as long as it make it to surplus, that more what Im looking for.

Additionally if anyone had places like CP gear (which I own a number of there products) is selling off there ARID great, TW is easy enough to get but ARID is harder to come by and a lot of the after market kit which was made is no longer made in ARID only TW.

Thanks.


Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2014, 18:25:44 »
yes I understand that items are controlled but once it makes it to surplus its legal to obtain as long as it make it to surplus, that more what Im looking for.

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Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2014, 18:28:59 »
yes I understand that items are controlled but once it makes it to surplus its legal to obtain as long as it make it to surplus, that more what Im looking for.

And by law it's not supposed to end up there....
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2014, 18:39:55 »
It makes it to surplus for two reasons:

1) Somebody in the supply chain failed at their job: or,

2) Someone stole it and sold it to the surplus store.

Neither reason is enough to let you buy it at the surplus store and legally wear it.

If you have a controlled item you're not entitled to and wear it, you are breaking the law.
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Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2014, 08:45:31 »
yes I understand that items are controlled but once it makes it to surplus its legal to obtain as long as it make it to surplus, that more what Im looking for.

HAHAHAHAHAH not even close

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/page-173.html#h-100

Possession of property obtained by crime

354. (1) Every one commits an offence who has in his possession any property or thing or any proceeds of any property or thing knowing that all or part of the property or thing or of the proceeds was obtained by or derived directly or indirectly from
(a) the commission in Canada of an offence punishable by indictment; or
(b) an act or omission anywhere that, if it had occurred in Canada, would have constituted an offence punishable by indictment.

355. Every one who commits an offence under section 354
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, where the subject-matter of the offence is a testamentary instrument or the value of the subject-matter of the offence exceeds five thousand dollars; or
(b) is guilty
(i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or
(ii) of an offence punishable on summary conviction,
where the value of the subject-matter of the offence does not exceed five thousand dollars.

As recceguy stated, controlled items end up in surplus in 1 of 2 ways.   Through negligence (which would be "an act of ommssion") or through theft.  MP's do in fact visit surplus stores (especially ones located near bases) searching for the very items you are seeking. 

Offline WhiskeyTango

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2014, 11:54:49 »
At out clearance at stores, many o many retiring or end of TOS personelle have got to keep quite a bit of items.

I know for certain a lot got to keep nearly everything on kit list's, both old olive drab up to 2001 and original pac safety tact vest, to all the arid and woodland relish cadpat. minus the two newer rucks, and some the flack vests. I know quite a bit that kept unit bought web gear and extra kit/equipment as well.
written off as consumables, written off as either checked back in or 'next to skin' clothing.


Offline Loachman

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2014, 12:06:29 »
They let us keep our floppy hats when we were clearing out after my second tour in KAF. I was surprised by that.

Offline WPJ

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 14:35:19 »
And by law it's not supposed to end up there....

NFLD Dapper, can you share a link to the Canadian law which states it can't be surpluses or is it rather just a CF law/regulation.

Thanks

Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2014, 14:47:54 »
It's called the Defence Production Act.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/D-1/page-9.html#h-9

Check Part 2: Restriction of Access to Controlled Goods. Beyond that, I won't be holding your hand any further. There are also technical regulations and schedules of controlled goods listed with the Act.
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Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2014, 14:50:38 »
IIRC it falls under the Controlled Goods Directive...

EDITED TO ADD

Which falls under what was said here:

It's called the Defence Production Act.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/D-1/page-9.html#h-9

Check Part 2: Restriction of Access to Controlled Goods. Beyond that, I won't be holding your hand any further. There are also technical regulations and schedules of controlled goods listed with the Act.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 14:55:13 by NFLD Sapper »
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Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2014, 18:13:37 »
At out clearance at stores, many o many retiring or end of TOS personelle have got to keep quite a bit of items.

I know for certain a lot got to keep nearly everything on kit list's, both old olive drab up to 2001 and original pac safety tact vest, to all the arid and woodland relish cadpat. minus the two newer rucks, and some the flack vests. I know quite a bit that kept unit bought web gear and extra kit/equipment as well.
written off as consumables, written off as either checked back in or 'next to skin' clothing.



They let us keep our floppy hats when we were clearing out after my second tour in KAF. I was surprised by that.

None of that necessarily means you were supposed to be allowed to keep that stuff.  You could very well have been allowed to, but we have all seen how the various and numerous regulations/directives/orders (on any number of issues, for example allowance entitlements) can be misinterpreted, not interpreted correctly, or not interpreted at all.  Which is why the criminal code section I mentioned has the act of ommission clause.


Offline WPJ

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2014, 19:18:47 »
It's called the Defence Production Act.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/D-1/page-9.html#h-9

Check Part 2: Restriction of Access to Controlled Goods. Beyond that, I won't be holding your hand any further. There are also technical regulations and schedules of controlled goods listed with the Act.

JesseWZ,

Thank you for providing me that link.  I have tried to find a link to a list of controlled items but I have not found one can you also provide that.  I have seen plenty of references to CADPAT is a registered trade mark but no statement of a Canada controlled item, I am nr trying to say that it is not but rather trying to find a reference to say that t is outside of a internal military only document.

Thanks

Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2014, 20:25:17 »
WPJ, I'm off work right now after having an ACL reconstruction surgery. Once I get back to work I will check to see if the list is available on the civilian internet and not just the DWAN. It may be a couple weeks yet before getting back in the saddle here but if the list doesn't come up before then I'll try to remember to check.
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Offline WPJ

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2014, 21:49:39 »
JesseWZ

That would be great Id love to see the link. I would like to see how they list is via certain NSN or description etc.  I have seen some of the after market CADPAT TW/AR have a CADPAT(R) patch down to the from to meet DND requirements for using genuine CADPAT pattern material.  I am assuming that it was not IR treated.

Thanks again for checking into this.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2014, 23:51:51 »
Why would someone want CADPAT(AR or TW), unless they were doing the jtfninjasniper thing in the middle of the Mattawa in August.

Or a paintball freak.

Or for the, supposed, LCF.

Or to be a poser.

There's plenty of after market stuff, and even some old, solid green Canadian surplus available to wear in the bush, for hunting, fishing or taking pictures.

No one, other than a serving soldier who needs it for their deployment or their job, requires CADPAT, whether it be AR or TW.

If you want CADPAT, go by that knock off Cadet stuff and quit trying to skirt the rules.
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Offline WPJ

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2014, 00:48:33 »
Recceguy

There is no need for the name calling or speculations.

I am looking for a link/document which states or lists to items which are controlled.  As this should back up everyone perceptions.

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2014, 05:31:08 »
Recceguy

There is no need for the name calling or speculations.

I am looking for a link/document which states or lists to items which are controlled.  As this should back up everyone perceptions.

You want the list of controlled goods? Do an Access to Information Request (FOIA request).

The uniforms are on there.
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Offline WPJ

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2014, 10:11:45 »
You want the list of controlled goods? Do an Access to Information Request (FOIA request).

The uniforms are on there.

RedcapCrusader,  Thanks for chiming in on tue discussion.

I find if odd that one would have to file a FOIA request to look up a law.  I have seen where CADPAT as in tue actual pattern is copyrighted.  You would think in the same documents they would state that all material items should mot be allowed for sale in the public sector but they don't.  It just says that you need an agreement with the copyright holder to use the pattern.

There is also section 419 of the criminal code (I think) that said people are not to have possession of controlled items with out permission.  How ever there doesn't seem to be an easy access able list of the actual controlled items
there is also mention that certain controlled items are fine fir use with in Canada however are not allowed to me exported.

There is also reference to surplus sales contracts on the government buy and sell site that say unless it was part of the contract any cadpat clothing should be return as it was not the intention to be sold.  It didn't say it was a controlled item just that it was the policy of that contract not to include any cadpat clothing.  Note the one I read only clothing and it didn't not mention other cadpat items is packs, vests, camp screens etc.

I have also seen reference to a post which said that the controlled part was a internal military police and control and not a section 419 controlled item.

I understand its a hot topic which is very near and deer to some peoples hearts and I have respect for that I am just looking to see there is a public document (not am internal military only) with lists the controlled items, it hard for people to follow the laws when you can read them.

thanks all for the comments and the links its very nice to see all points of view.

Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2014, 11:31:54 »
AFAIK, the physical documents (the lists) of what is a controlled good and how it is classified are not available to civilians unless you file an Access to Information Request and even then some and/most of the information may be withheld because it is also controlled information. There is also thousands of pages of controlled goods (which include parts, technology, and information).

All you need to know is if you own/buy/sell/trade/acquire a piece of kit with a CF label and a NSN and it has not been declared surplus it is a federal offence. Depending on the item, you could face hefty punishment.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 12:10:51 by RedcapCrusader »
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Offline WPJ

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2014, 12:22:33 »

All you need to know is if you own a piece of kit with a CF label and a NSN and it has not been declared surplus it is a federal offence.

RedcapCrusader, a number of NSN on an item.  I do not think a number of these have a serialization so how could using just a NSN  determine that a item was surpluses correctly or not.  That method seems very grey when it really should be a black and white issue no?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2014, 12:28:58 »
RedcapCrusader, a number of NSN on an item.  I do not think a number of these have a serialization so how could using just a NSN  determine that a item was surpluses correctly or not.  That method seems very grey when it really should be a black and white issue no?

 ???

Not all items with a NSN are serialized.  Not all items that are "Controlled Items" are serialized, nor even have NSNs.  If you by chance have an old Lesson Plan for a Wpns class in your possession, that you may have even wrote yourself; that is a "Controled Item". 

As for your question about the acquisition of Arid CADPAT; it has been covered in several topics already:  all CADPAT is to be destroyed when it becomes unserviceable, NOT to be declared surplus and sent off disposal through Crown Assets.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Wanted: Cadpat Arid used equipment
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2014, 12:43:04 »
???

Not all items with a NSN are serialized.  Not all items that are "Controlled Items" are serialized, nor even have NSNs.  If you by chance have an old Lesson Plan for a Wpns class in your possession, that you may have even wrote yourself; that is a "Controled Item". 

As for your question about the acquisition of Arid CADPAT; it has been covered in several topics already:  all CADPAT is to be destroyed when it becomes unserviceable, NOT to be declared surplus and sent off disposal through Crown Assets.

Which begs the question, again.

WHY would someone want it anyway?
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