Author Topic: Australian navy's hunt for new sub to replace Collins class  (Read 51191 times)

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Offline Dimsum

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Submarine bids by Japan, France and Germany to be subsidised with $24m from Australian taxpayers

Quote
Australian taxpayers will spend $24 million helping three overseas bidders state their case to build the Australian Navy's next generation of submarines.

The Defence Department has confirmed the Japanese government, French firm DCNS and German shipbuilder TKMS will each receive $8 million to provide "defined deliverables" under the Federal Government's so-called "competitive evaluation process".

All three foreign bidders have been asked to consider building the fleet of submarines offshore, in Australia, or a combination of both.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-12/foreign-sub-bidders-to-be-given-24m-subsidy-to-prepare-tenders/6542482
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Offline S.M.A.

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The latest on Japan's quest to sell Soryu class subs to Australia:

Diplomat

Quote
Failure to Communicate: Will Japan Fall Behind on Australia's Collins-replacement Contract?

Japan has the finest product on offering, but savvy PR pitches from its French and German competitors may edge it out.


AVw7kxXY
By Ankit Panda
August 18, 2015

As many Diplomat readers may be aware, three firms are effectively in the running for a highly lucrative Australian defense contract to build the submarine that will replace the aging Royal Australian Navy’s fleet of Collins-class submarines. Germany’s ThyssenKrupp AG, France’s Direction des Constructions et Armes Navales (DCNS) Group, and a joint bid between Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd could be the potential winners of an expected $20 billion weapons deal. For the Japanese firms in particular, the Collins-class replacement bid presents a new opportunity to enter the lucrative global weapons market after Japan lifted a decades-old self-imposed embargo on weapons exports. What’s more, Japan’s Soryu-class submarines are among the most advanced non-nuclear attack submarines in the world and an expected favorite to cinch the Australian contract.

However, the Soryu‘s technology isn’t going to sell itself. According to a fascinating new Wall Street Journal report, Mitsubishi and Kawasaki aren’t ones to perfect the sort of public relations push that’s often necessary to build an aura of positivity around pricey defense deals that are often seen as a form of superfluous spending by domestic audiences. What’s more, ThyssenKrupp and DCNS on the other hand are very active in the “public charm offensives” in Australia according to the WSJ reporters. The report highlights some of the necessary “growing pains” that may afflict Japanese defense contractors with little experience in competing on the global market for multi-billion dollar hardware contracts.

The Journal report, however, goes further than implying that the two firms are simply inexperienced in the arts of public persuasion. Indeed, it highlights a sort of intentional “secrecy surrounding the government-led Japanese bid.” The report speculates–correctly, in my view–that given the experimental nature of this contract for Mitsubishi and Kawasaki and regional tensions in Asia surrounding Japan’s ongoing recalibration as a more “normal” country on matters regarding its own military and participation in the global market for military hardware, Tokyo may be reluctant to fully embrace the range of trappings that accompany international defense contract pitches. As one expert cited in the Journal notes, Japan sees the Collins-class replacement contract as “a case of exporting defense equipment, transferring technology and making Australian production possible” while competitors are “adding value with their proposals.”


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Offline S.M.A.

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OTR1, what would be your assessment on this Aussie Senator and how good he has been in keeping promises to maintain defence spending in your country?

Diplomat

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Interview: Australian Senator Nick Xenophon
The Diplomat speaks with Sen. Xenophon about Australia’s submarine deal
.


(...SNIPPED)

Why does Australia need submarines?

Because we are an island nation with a vast coastline, submarines are an integral and vital part of Australia’s defense. I am not a defense expert, and I am not a strategic expert, but I rely on what the experts say, and there is tremendous unanimity that having a viable, capable submarine fleet is essential for Australia’s defense. Particularly in this era when the Indian and Pacific Oceans are increasing in importance, and knowing historically how important submarines are to an island nation such as Australia, we need to have a capable submarine fleet. Having 12 submarines, with at least six to eight of those being operational at any given time, is vital to cover the oceans that surround us.

How do the German, French and Japanese bidders compare in terms of experience building in Australia?

Clearly, France and Germany have had experience building submarines overseas. Japan has not yet had that experience. I think that it is fair to say that all the countries involved in the bidding process can make high-quality, first-class submarines. But in terms of experience, I think the Japanese understand that they are playing a game of “catch up” with the others, and they are diligently engaging with us.

I am agnostic as to which country we partner with to build the submarines, so long as they build here, which is consistent to the promise made by the Australian government. That, to me, is the key issue. Japan is at a disadvantage relative to Germany and France, but they are making a very genuine effort to “catch up” and that is what their industry delegation to Australia was about. And again, I’m not taking sides, I just want the subs to be built in Australia.

(...SNIPPED)

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Offline Dimsum

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OTR1, what would be your assessment on this Aussie Senator and how good he has been in keeping promises to maintain defence spending in your country?

Diplomat

Not sure about anything else, but he's from Adelaide where the new subs would be built (if they end up being built in Australia.)
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Offline OTR1

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SMA, I expect Dimsum has nailed it. NX is, I believe, a very good rainmaker for local stuff but not a bigwig in the corridors of power in Canberra.

Offline OTR1

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On a slight tangent, I gather that in the wash of the change of PM in Oz that the current minister will be replaced next week.

That's now +/- 10 defence ministers since 2000.

Sigh..............

Offline OTR1

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Just to update the above, Andrews was sacked and replaced by a wholly unknown senator named Marise Payne.

Standby for a statement this week or so that the DWP and DCP will be 'reviewed' and not released until the new year.

Ho hum.

 :(

Offline S.M.A.

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Would the new Turnbull govt. be bad news for Japan's efforts to sell Soryu class subs to Oz? This article below explores that possibility:

Diplomat

Quote
Is Australia's New Prime Minster Bad News for Japan’s Submarine Bid?
Will Australia’s leadership change throw a wrench into Japan’s odds of winning the Collins replacement deal?


By Ankit Panda
September 28, 2015

The recent unexpected leadership shake-up in Australia raises several questions about how the country’s foreign affairs will be conducted under a new prime minister. After a leadership spill in the Liberal Party, Tony Abbott is out and Malcolm Turnbull is in. For Japan, whose Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. are in the running for Australia’s largest-ever defense contract—to replace the $20 billion Collins-class submarine—the change will be a topic of great interest. The Japanese firms, manufacturers for the Soru-class diesel-electric attack submarines, are competing with Germany’s ThyssenKrupp AG and France’s Direction des Constructions et Armes Navales (DCNS) Group.

On first glance, it appears that Turnbull’s ascent to the helm of the Liberal Party and, consequently, the prime ministership, will not factor in Japan’s favor. Malcolm Cook has a helpful post over at the Lowy Institute’s blog in which he highlights the close personal rapport that Shinzo Abe, Japan’s prime minister, and Tony Abbott had established over the past two years. Abe returned to power for a second term as prime minister, leading the Liberal Democratic Party in Japan, in December 2012, and Abbott became prime minister in September 2013. Turnbull, of course, isn’t the only new figure to appear at the top of the Australian government — Abbott’s defense minister, Kevin Andrews, has been replaced as well, by Marise Payne, the first woman to hold the post.

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« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 20:07:32 by S.M.A. »
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Offline RDBZ

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Just to update the above, Andrews was sacked and replaced by a wholly unknown senator named Marise Payne.


Was previously Minister for Human Services, which is a bigger spending portfolio than defence.

Offline CBH99

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I was under the impression that the senior ADF brass really, really don't want the Japanese subs.  So a new minister might not be the biggest wrench thrown into the Japanese bid...?
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Offline OTR1

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In reply...

"I was under the impression that the senior ADF brass really, really don't want the Japanese subs."
They don't.

"So a new minister might not be the biggest wrench thrown into the Japanese bid...?"
Yes/no/maybe/dunno. With what is many respects a new govt all this is muddier than ever.

"Was previously Minister for Human Services, which is a bigger spending portfolio than defence."
Not the sort of job that gets a lot of attention. There was a great of "Um....who?" uttered the length and breadth of the country when she got the job.




Offline S.M.A.

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Japan ready to build all subs for Canberra in Aussie shipyards
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2015, 00:52:23 »
Of course, the deal preferred would be the one that doesn't leave local shipbuilders high and dry:

Reuters

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Japan says ready to build all submarines for Canberra in Australia


By Tim Kelly and Nobuhiro Kubo

TOKYO, Sept 29 (Reuters) - Japan is ready to match European rivals and build a fleet of submarines for Canberra entirely at Australian shipyards, a senior Japanese official said on Tuesday, after stumbling in its effort to win the A$50 billion ($34.76 billion) contract.

Tokyo was willing to train hundreds of Australian engineers in Japan's submarine-manufacturing hub of Kobe as well as in Australia as part of its offer for one of the world's biggest defence contracts, Masaaki Ishikawa, director general for Acquisition Reform at the Ministry of Defense, told Reuters.

His comments are the first from an official directly involved in the bid that Japan is willing to build the stealth submarines entirely in Australia, where jobs are a hot button political issue. Canberra is expected to order between eight to 12 vessels.

"Whatever option Australia chooses we are ready to provide the necessary technology transfers and skills," Ishikawa said in an interview.

(...SNIPPED)

Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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Offline S.M.A.

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Japanese defence firms showing their wares at this expo in Sydney, Australia:

Navy Recognition

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Japan's Government and Industry Held an Industry Briefing on Soryu Submarine at PACIFIC 2015

At PACIFIC 2015, the international maritime exposition currently held in Sydney Australia, the Japanese Government and Industry held an industry briefing on its bid with the Soryu for the SEA1000 program. Japan has a small pavilion at the exposition with scale models of the SEA1000 proposal, a Soryu class, an Atago class Destroyer and the 20DX Frigate.
   
At PACIFIC 2015, the international maritime exposition currently held in Sydney Australia, the Japanese Government and Industry held an industry briefing on its bid with the Soryu for the SEA1000 program. Japan has a small pavilion at the exposition with scale models of the SEA1000 proposal, a Soryu class, an Atago class Destroyer and the 20DX Frigate. Izumi Ishii, Vice President of Integrated Defense & Space Systems at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. during SEA1000 Industry Briefing at PACIFIC 2015
   
The briefing which Navy Recognition was attending was presented by Japan's Defence Ministry spokesman Masaki Ishikawa and Izumi Ishii, Vice President of Integrated Defense & Space Systems at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd.

The Team Japan as presented by the Defence Ministry spokesman is to incorporate state of the art technologies from both Australia and Japan into proven technologies for ocean navigation, to work with local industries in whatever arrangement best suited for the Australian Government and to involve Australian industries from the design phase throughout the program.

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« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 14:04:33 by S.M.A. »
Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline OTR1

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Japanese defence firms showing their wares at this expo in Sydney
As are the Germans and the French.


Offline S.M.A.

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All-weather snorkel system?

Diplomat

Quote
Japan to Offer Australia Its Top-Secret Submarine Technology
Tokyo has disclosed additional details of its offer to replace the Royal Australian Navy’s Collins-class subs
.


By Franz-Stefan Gady
October 07, 2015

Japan has for the first time revealed additional details of its proposal to design and build submarines to replace Australia’s fleet of six Collins-class boats.

This week, the head of a high-powered Japanese delegation, speaking at this year’s Sea Power conference in Sydney, told local media that Japan would transfer 100 percent of the technology involved in building a larger version of Japan’s state-of-the-art 4,000-ton diesel-electric Soryu-class submarine to the Australian submariner community. “Our objective is to have everything available to transfer,” delegation head Masaki Ishikawa said.

In detail, Japan’s proposal includes advanced welding technologies, top-secret stealth technology, combat system integration, lithium-ion batteries as the submarine’s main energy source (with the option for air-independent propulsion to be added later an), and an all-weather snorkel system that can operate even during a typhoon, according to the Australian news website Perth Now. In addition, the sub will feature a U.S. combat system.

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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline Colin P

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by the time this contract is wrapping up, maybe it will be a perfect time to jump aboard.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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All-weather snorkel system?

Diplomat

All snorkelling systems are all-weather so long as you are willing to live with the discomfort associated with temporary shut-down of the inflow pipe and you are ready to handle vacuum-in-the-boat situations.

The real question is, with a submarine, why on earth would you want to be anywhere less than two hundred feet deep during a typhoon ?

Offline S.M.A.

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Germany offers Endeavour project sub as Soryu alternative to Australia
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2015, 11:44:16 »
Germany's competing offer to Japan's offer of Soryu class subs to Australia:

Navy Recognition

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TKMS announces ‘Endeavour’ - the name for Australian Future Submarine Project
 
ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), the world’s leading builder of conventional submarines, has announced the name ‘Endeavour’ for its Australian SEA1000 Future Submarine Project. The announcement was made today to coincide with the company’s presence at Pacific 2015, a major naval industry event being held in Sydney from 6 to 8 October. TKMS is committed to naval shipbuilding in Australia and the broader APAC region.

Dr John White, Chairman of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems Australia, said:

“We selected the name ‘Endeavour’ for its obvious connections to Australia’s history, particularly the fact that the country was discovered by Captain James Cook who first landed the Endeavour at Botany Bay in 1770. 245 years later, at Pacific 2015, we are showcasing our leading ship-building and submarine capability that reflects our strong commitment to Australia for over 150 years.”

“We are committed to deliver a regionally-superior submarine for Australia under Project Endeavour through the Federal Government’s Competitive Evaluation Process. We will offer an advanced submarine design that is tailored to Australia’s specific submarine requirements and designed for reliable cost effective sustainment.”

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Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline S.M.A.

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DCNS Barracuda pitched for Australia sub replacement program
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2015, 15:42:39 »
France's counter offer to Japan's Soryu and Germany's Endeavour sub projects to Australia:

Navy Recognition

Quote
PACIFIC 2015: DCNS Showcased the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A for SEA1000 Submarine Program
 
At PACIFIC 2015, the international maritime exposition held recently in Sydney, DCNS was showcasing for the first time a scale model of its proposal for the Australian SEA1000 submarine design and procurement program. Based on the French Navy Barracuda SSN currently in final stage of construction, the Shorfin Barracuda is 3 meters shorter (94 meters) and 200 tons lighter (4,500 tons).

The two submarines share the same hull but DCNS further improved some aspects of the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A hull shape in order to maintain the impressive speed and maneuverability qualities expected with the next SSN of the French Navy. Both are fitted with X-shape rudders which provides better handling to the submarine while surfaced and underwater. The "pump jet" allows for higher speed before the onset of cavitation and lower acoustic signature.

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Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
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Offline S.M.A.

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Saab offers upgrade for RAN's Collins class subs
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2015, 16:29:50 »
What??? This is assuming the Aussie MoD wants to stick with these undermanned, problem-plagued subs.

Diplomat

Quote
Could Saab Upgrade Australia’s Collins-class Submarine as a Stopgap Measure?
The Swedish company Saab Kockums offers to upgrade Australia’s subs while Canberra decides who will replace them. Is it worth it?


By Benjamin David Baker
October 14, 2015
As previously reported by the Diplomat, Australia is still trying to figure out which submarines will replace its Collins-class boats. The three contenders still in the so-called SEA-1000 competition are the German ThyssenKrupp’s Type 216-class, a diesel-electric version of the French Thales/DCNS Barracuda-class and a modified version of the Japanese Kawasaki Soryu-class. The first of the 6 Collins’ have been in service since the early 1990s, when they replaced the venerable Oberon-class. Although no definitive price limit has been set, the Collins replacement program has caused an intense debate in Australia, and is calculated to be the most expensive defense acquisition in country’s history.

One of the contenders to be dropped from the competition last year was Sweden’s Saab Kockums. As the Diplomat’s Franz-Stefan Gady reported earlier this year, this was apparently due to Sweden’s inexperience in building advanced subs. Former Prime Minister Tony Abbott stated that “The last Australian submarine came off the production line in about 2001 … the last Swedish submarine came off the production line in 1996, so it’s almost two decades since Sweden built a submarine.”

Saab Kockums responded that “this is not the case” and emphasizes that Sweden, “maintained a full capacity to design and build submarines both for Sweden and for export over the last 20 years.”

(...SNIPPED)


Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline S.M.A.

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DCNS prepares final offer for Aussie sub tender
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2015, 16:48:32 »
DCNS's last push?

Defense News

Quote
DCNS Prepares Final Offer for Australian Sub Tender
By Pierre Tran 2:56 p.m. EDT October 20, 2015

PARIS — DCNS filed a draft proposal at the end of September and aims to submit a final offer at the end of November in Australia’s tender for a new class of attack submarines, reported to be worth Aus $50 billion (US $36.3 billion), a spokesperson for the French naval shipbuilder said.

Technology transfer will be part of the French offer of the concept vessel Shortfin Barracuda, a diesel-electric version of the Barracuda nuclear-powered attack submarine being built for the French Navy.

“The transfer of technology will be complete, to allow Australia to meet its objective of sovereignty and independence,” the DCNS spokesperson said.

Australia’s Sea 1000 project to replace the Collins submarines has attracted competing bids from DCNS, a Japanese offer from Mitsubishi Heavy Industry and Kawasaki Shipbuilding, and German specialist ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems. The tender is for six to 12 units.

(...SNIPPED)
Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline S.M.A.

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More on the last push by the French:

Defense News

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DCNS Submits Final Bid in Australian Sub Program
By Pierre Tran 12:14 p.m. EST November 30, 2015

PARIS — DCNS last week submitted its final proposal in Australia’s tender for up to 12 attack submarines in the Sea 1000 Future Submarine program, a deal reported to be worth Aus $50 billion (US $36.1 billion), a spokesperson for the French naval shipbuilder said.

“The offer was made on Friday,” the spokesperson said.

The DCNS offer is backed by the procurement office of the French Ministry of Defense.

“The proposal includes a government-to-government agreement from the French Ministry of Defense’s Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA) to the Commonwealth of Australia’s Department of Defence and a binding written commitment on key aspects of the deliverables,” DCNS said in a Monday statement.

(...SNIPPED)
Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
-------------------------------------------
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline S.M.A.

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All bids are in: let's see who comes out on top.

Defense News

Quote
Submarine Bids Now in, Australian Panel Begins Evaluation
By Nigel Pittaway 2:59 p.m. EST December 5, 2015

MELBOURNE, Australia — Now that all three competitors have issued final proposals in Australia's AU$ 50 billion (US $36.44 billion) Future Submarine program, an expert advisory panel will begin its evaluations and issue findings next year to guide the government's selection.

Up to 12 large conventional submarines will be acquired under Project Sea 1000. The Australian government selected France’s DCNS, TKMS of Germany and the government of Japan to participate in a competitive evaluation process (CEP).

“Since the CEP began in February, all three participants have worked closely with [the Department of] Defence and they should be congratulated for the hard work and significant investment they have made to reach this point,” Australian Defence Minister Sen. Marise Payne said in a statement.

(...SNIPPED)
Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline S.M.A.

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Germany's TKMS to buy Australia Submarine Corporation?
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2015, 00:14:17 »
2 major updates that may influence Australia's future sub competition:

Defence Aerospace

Quote
The French DCNS Bid for Future Australian Submarine
(Source: DCNS Australia; issued Dec 15, 2015)
The Future Submarine Program will deliver Australia an affordable, regionally superior, conventional submarine capability, sustainable into the foreseeable future.

Australia must have the ability to operate, sustain, maintain and upgrade Australia’s submarine force on an enduring basis. Australia’s Future Submarines project will be the biggest defence acquisition in Australia’s history, valued at $50 billion.

Building the submarines will be a mammoth task – at least twice the size of the Collins Class program.

On completion, the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A will be the most technically complex artefact in Australia.

(...SNIPPED)

A winning move by the Germans which will win over the shipbuilding lobbyists in Australia?

Financial Review

Quote
ThyssenKrupp prepared to buy ASC as part of submarine pitch

The German bidder for Australia's submarine tender wants to create a Pacific advanced manufacturing hub to build, maintain and export combat boats to Australia's regional allies by buying government shipbuilder ASC.

ThyssenKrupp Marine Services, which is competing to build Australian submarines in what is the world's largest non-nuclear submarine contract, says it is prepared to take over ASC, formerly known as the Australian Submarine Corporation, in order to "replicate" its German shipbuilding operations in Australia.

ThyssenKrupp's push to win the bid has reached the highest levels of government and industry with Chancellor Angela Merkel putting aside her nation's reticence to discuss its defence industry to back the bid.

South Australian politicians are also keen supporters because of the flow on effects to local small to medium manufacturers that could be potential suppliers to a 30-year high-tech shipbuilding project.


(...SNIPPED)

« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 00:21:22 by S.M.A. »
Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
-------------------------------------------
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline S.M.A.

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TKMS losing its bid?

Diplomat

Quote
Has Germany Lost the Bid to Build Australia’s New Subs?

A German bid is reportedly losing ground over technical concerns.


By Franz-Stefan Gady
January 23, 2016

In the competitive bidding process for a $50 billion ($38.8 billion) contract to build Australia’s new submarine fleet in partnership with Australian industry, Germany appears to be losing over technical concerns, according to industry sources interviewed by Reuters.

“The German proposal is an enlarged version of a smaller existing submarine, and that technically is risky,” one source told Reuters. German defense contractor Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS) is offering Australia a scaled-up version of its 2,000-ton diesel-electric Type 214 submarine, equipped with lithium-ion battery technology. As I reported previously, TKMS is offering the 4,000-ton HDW class 216, specifically designed to meet Australia’s needs.

In February 2015, the Australian government asked Germany, France, and Japan to bid for the country’s largest defense procurement program (the so-called SEA-1000 acquisition project)—a contract to build up to 12 new submarines for the Australian Royal Navy, replacing the six Collins-class submarines currently in service.

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Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill