Author Topic: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]  (Read 5858 times)

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Offline Al101

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Hello,

My names Al, and I've been looking through this forum looking for answers about various subjects and I couldn't be happier with just how helpful and awesome this forum is. However, I have a few questions of my own, and even though they may seem repetitive, allow me to apologize ahead of time. I have searched throughout the forums for answers, and even though I've found some, I still have some questions of my own.

I plan to join as Infantry NCM. I tried to message the actual forces at their official "contact us" but they replied with an automated response that had nothing to do with what I asked, which is why I'm glad I found this forum. Problem is, I'm a bit confused, honestly.

Specialty Training and Advanced Training. While I understand what they both mean, I'm unsure as how many of them you can actually do/take. For example:

I was looking through the forums and I found info about Pathfinder course, for example. I'm aware of its pre-requisites, but I'm unsure if you're able to take as many courses as possible. Without trying to sound too bold, or too silly, I have plans for the military. I have a few courses in mind, and I need to know if I'm able to do them all, excluding the requirement facts, just in general is what I mean.

My plan is pretty much to become a Sniper (surprise, surprise) and later on try for JTF2 (surprise, surprise again). Now before you say "Lol, here we go, another one of these guys." please do understand where I'm coming from. My life plan is pretty much learn as much as possible in the military to then use those skills in the police force and in "bad" real life scenarios. My major (and I guess "top" goal) in the military would be to join Special Forces, and there are various reasons for that which if I would get into them, I'd be writing an essay. Now, the courses I'm going to list are the courses that I want to know if I'm able to do them all, regardless of the time that it'll take for me to be, say, eligible for it and whatnot, before I try out, and hopefully pass, the JTF2 selection.

Now, I looked as much as I could, so if I say a course name wrong, I apologize ahead of time as the official website does not give much info on these things, like the pathfinder course (which I discovered in these forums).
Basic Parachuting
Diver (or Combat Diver?) Is this even a course, or an actual infantry occupation?
Recce (If I'm not mistaken, this is Reconnaissance, right?)
PLQ (This course is what I'm a bit confused about. Is this for Officers only or can NCMs take this as well?)
Of course, Pathfinder course which has pre-requisites which I have listed.
In the website, there are "courses" like Machinegunner, Jungle and Arctic Operations, am I able to take those as well?
And finally, Sniper.

I hope I'm not forgetting anything, and if I have any information that is not correct, I do apologize again. These are the courses that I'd like to be able to do, if possible, before doing the Sniper course. I apologize if it may seem unrealistic or just plain ridiculous but I could not get this information and since it's a "course" and not occupation, I assume you'd be able to take them all, provided of course that you are eligible, but I can always use the input of someone knowledgeable.

Also, if I may ask a question about Snipers since I could not access the threads provided in the "Life as an Infantry Soldier?" as they were "off-limits or missing".

Say I've completed Sniper selection. That would be my.."specialty", correct? But does that mean I would be doing that ONLY, or would I be, say, "selected" to do this or that (be it either sniper, machinegunner, or just plain rifleman) in that specific situation?

I believe this is it for now. If I remember anything else, I'll edit! Thanks everyone for your time, and I apologize again if this thread is ridiculous in any way.
Recruiting Center: CFRC Hamilton
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1: Infantry Soldier
Trade Choice 2: Armoured Soldier (removed)
Trade Choice 3: Boatswain (removed)
Application Date: Sometime in 2013
First Contact: Sometime in 2013
Aptitude Test: Nov 6 2017 (passed)
Medical: Jan 22 2018
Med Fit: Oct 25 2018
Interview: Jan 22 2018 (passed)
Position Offered: Pending
Enrollment/Swear in: Pending
BMQ: Pending

Offline Master Corporal Steven

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 10:53:46 »
Good day AL,

     There are many opportunities to take advanced courses and training regardless of occupational choice. However that being said some of the courses and advanced training that you have shown interest in are only available to those members employed in the infantry occupation. Once any of the courses/training are completed they are added to your military employment record as a qualification. These qualifications make you more employable to the unit that you are assigned to; meaning that if you get qualified as a sniper you may not be employed as a sniper by your unit until it is required. Once a recruit becomes a fully trained infantry solider they will have opportunities to address their willingness for advanced courses/training through their chain of command. The decision to send you on any of the courses/training that you request in your military career are based on the needs and requirements of the Canadian Armed Forces and your performance against others at the same rank level in the unit that you belong to.   
Forces.ca

Offline Al101

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 15:50:23 »
Hello,

Thanks very much for the reply, MCpl Steven. That is definitely good to hear. I also want to thank the previous poster who said Combat Diver is for engineers only and info about the leadership course.

I'll come back if I have any more questions, if that's alright!

Thanks again. Have a good one.
Recruiting Center: CFRC Hamilton
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1: Infantry Soldier
Trade Choice 2: Armoured Soldier (removed)
Trade Choice 3: Boatswain (removed)
Application Date: Sometime in 2013
First Contact: Sometime in 2013
Aptitude Test: Nov 6 2017 (passed)
Medical: Jan 22 2018
Med Fit: Oct 25 2018
Interview: Jan 22 2018 (passed)
Position Offered: Pending
Enrollment/Swear in: Pending
BMQ: Pending

Offline JToyts

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2017, 12:23:58 »
I leave for BMQ this July to become a Artillery Soldier, now I've looked trough the forums and have some mixed answers on the question I want to ask so I figured I'd make a new post. So within Arty I've heard you can take some Infantry Specialization courses, so with that being said, does anyone know which exact courses? Is it eventually possible to take the Sniper Course as a member of Arty or is that only for the Infantry trade.
Recruiting Centre: Barrie, Ontario
Regular/ Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade choice: Combat Engineer
Trade choice: Artillery Soldier
Trade choice: Armoured Crewman
Applied: November 14th, 2016
Further processing: November 18th, 2016
CFAT: November 29th 2016 (Passed)
Medical: January 24th 2017
Interview: January 24th 2017
Merit Listed: March 15th 2017
Position offered: April 11th 2017 (Artillery Soldier)
Swearing in: July 11th 2017
BMQ: July 24th 2017

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2017, 12:36:48 »
Not likely. you can take common courses such as basic para, basic mountain ops, CQC(B), etc.

Option 2, is put some time in, get your cadpat a little worn out so to speak and then consider applying for CANSOFCOM, you might, maybe, have a slight pinch of a chance to make it there. Then for sure you can get on a sniper course if you want.
I am NOT a privileged white man by virtue of being male or white. I am privileged because I am alive and exercising my right to be who I am!

Offline JToyts

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2017, 12:40:42 »
Perfect, thank you for the response!
Recruiting Centre: Barrie, Ontario
Regular/ Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade choice: Combat Engineer
Trade choice: Artillery Soldier
Trade choice: Armoured Crewman
Applied: November 14th, 2016
Further processing: November 18th, 2016
CFAT: November 29th 2016 (Passed)
Medical: January 24th 2017
Interview: January 24th 2017
Merit Listed: March 15th 2017
Position offered: April 11th 2017 (Artillery Soldier)
Swearing in: July 11th 2017
BMQ: July 24th 2017

Offline mariomike

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 12:41:19 »
Is it eventually possible to take the Sniper Course as a member of Arty or is that only for the Infantry trade.

In order to be considered for the Sniper Course you need:
 to be employed in the Regular Force as an Infantryman (MOC 031)
 to have successfully completed the Recce Patrolman Course
 to have been selected by the Reconnaissance Platoon and your Chain of Command
 to have passed the Pre-Sniper Course
https://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Sniper#Qualifications

See also,

Becoming a Sniper (merged)
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=455.150
7 pages.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2017, 12:48:36 »
For a modest fee, less than six digits, payable in unmarked twenty-dollar bills to an anonymous and temporary post office box, I will guarantee you a sniper course within your first year at your future Regiment.

That may seem somewhat strange, at first glance, but it is your absolute best chance. No pressure, but my generous offer expires today at midnight Zulu Time.

Work hard, excel, and prove yourself in your primary job and any other responsibilities that you may be given and you will become competitive for desirable courses - but chances are that lots of others will be competing for the same few slots. You have a few steps to successfully take first, so concentrate on those.

Offline Ayrsayle

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I would also encourage you to take a look at what tasks and duties an artillery soldier needs to be capable of - and see where having a sniper skillset is going to assist you in your chosen trade.

This is what your supervisors are going to consider when you ask "can I go on a sniper course" and what the CAF considers when they determine "who is eligible for Course X".

Long answer (and it requires some research) -  it helps to have a good understanding of your trade and what it does.

Regards,

Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Al101

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2017, 14:29:09 »
Hello,

I hope I'm in the right sub-forum to ask about this, if not, I do apologize.

I have a question regarding courses you are able to take as Infantry NCM. In my extensive search, I've noticed different answers, whether that be from these forums or other places, including people currently serving in person. Having said that, I'm trying to see if I can get a straight yes or no answer, sort of thing. Also, I am not in the Military just yet.

I understand you're able to take certain courses such as Pathfinder, Para, DZ/LZ, etc, but the question I want to ask is, and I'll try to separate the points...

If you want to take any of these courses, is it really up to you or SOMEBODY? Will somebody PREVENT you from doing these courses? Think of a scenario where you're doing everything right, performance-wise and everything. Somehow, I don't really like the idea of somebody else having a say on what I can learn, especially if I'd be after something specific later on. Can I be told "No" simply because said person does not -want- me to? I'd love a clarification on this.

I understand everything takes a longer than usual time in the Canadian government, so I'd assume it's the same in the Canadian Forces. Having said that, would I be correct to assume even if I could do such courses, I'd have to wait until they're available and not "right away" sort of thing? If that is so, how many times are they available for per year?

And in regards to courses outside of Canada, for example, I read you are able to participate in the U.S. Ranger School. Two questions. Is this only possible if your unit is doing that, or are you able to do that alone? Also, is there any other courses from any other country you are also able to do, this also includes U.S aside from Rangers?

Thanks for your time.
Recruiting Center: CFRC Hamilton
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1: Infantry Soldier
Trade Choice 2: Armoured Soldier (removed)
Trade Choice 3: Boatswain (removed)
Application Date: Sometime in 2013
First Contact: Sometime in 2013
Aptitude Test: Nov 6 2017 (passed)
Medical: Jan 22 2018
Med Fit: Oct 25 2018
Interview: Jan 22 2018 (passed)
Position Offered: Pending
Enrollment/Swear in: Pending
BMQ: Pending

Offline mariomike

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2017, 14:36:19 »
I have a question regarding courses you are able to take as Infantry NCM. In my extensive search, I've noticed different answers, whether that be from these forums or other places, including people currently serving in person. Having said that, I'm trying to see if I can get a straight yes or no answer, sort of thing. Also, I am not in the Military just yet.

I understand you're able to take certain courses such as Pathfinder, Para, DZ/LZ, etc, but the question I want to ask is, and I'll try to separate the points...

If you want to take any of these courses, is it really up to you or SOMEBODY? Will somebody PREVENT you from doing these courses? Think of a scenario where you're doing everything right, performance-wise and everything. Somehow, I don't really like the idea of somebody else having a say on what I can learn, especially if I'd be after something specific later on. Can I be told "No" simply because said person does not -want- me to? I'd love a clarification on this.

Infantry Soldiers who demonstrate the required ability, dedication and potential are selected for opportunities for career progression, promotion and advanced training, including Paratrooper training.

Infantry Soldiers may be offered the opportunity to develop specialized skills through formal courses and on-the-job training, including:
•Basic Parachutist
•Parachute Jumpmaster
•Para Instructor
•Mountain Warfare
•Instructional Techniques
•First Aid Instructor
•Rappelmaster
•Unarmed Combat Instructor
•Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Defence Instructor
•Urban Operations

As they progress in their career, Infantry Soldiers who demonstrate the required ability and potential will be offered advanced training. Available courses include:
•Instructional Techniques
•Primary Army Leadership
•Infantry Soldier Section Commander
•Infantry Soldier Platoon Second-in-Command
•Infantry Soldier Company Sergeant-Major
•Communicator
•Reconnaissance Patrolling
•Anti-Armour Gunner
•Sniper
•Section Commander
•Eryx Gunner
•Machinegunner (Heavy and General Purpose)
•Small Arms Coach
•25mm Gunner and light armoured vehicle Crew Commander
•Winter (Arctic) and Jungle Operations
•Patrol Pathfinder
•Tactical Intelligence Operator
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/caf-jobs/career-options/fields-work/combat-specialists/infantry-soldier.html

And in regards to courses outside of Canada, for example, I read you are able to participate in the U.S. Ranger School. Two questions. Is this only possible if your unit is doing that, or are you able to do that alone? Also, is there any other courses from any other country you are also able to do, this also includes U.S aside from Rangers?

Ranger Course 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=606.0
3 pages.

Canadian excels on Ranger course 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=16053.0
2 pages.

Ranger school 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=118041.0

etc...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 14:46:44 by mariomike »

Offline Al101

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2017, 14:41:42 »
Hello,

Thanks for your reply and time.

Although I've seen that on the website a thousand times, I am, however, looking for a detailed answer to my questions.
Recruiting Center: CFRC Hamilton
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1: Infantry Soldier
Trade Choice 2: Armoured Soldier (removed)
Trade Choice 3: Boatswain (removed)
Application Date: Sometime in 2013
First Contact: Sometime in 2013
Aptitude Test: Nov 6 2017 (passed)
Medical: Jan 22 2018
Med Fit: Oct 25 2018
Interview: Jan 22 2018 (passed)
Position Offered: Pending
Enrollment/Swear in: Pending
BMQ: Pending

Offline mariomike

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2017, 14:50:14 »
Thanks for your reply and time.

You are welcome. Good luck.  :)

Although I've seen that on the website a thousand times, I am, however, looking for a detailed answer to my questions.

You may find some answers more here,

Infantry
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/board,4.0.html

As always,  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 15:03:21 by mariomike »

Offline Al101

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2017, 14:57:42 »
Hello,

While I do appreciate the links, I have already went through all of them before, multiple times. While it answers a bit, it raises more questions than answers, as people don't seem to be sure. I was looking for a more "official" answer to the questions. A firm "yes" or "no" from somebody who knows 100%, which I'd assume, recruiting would. I'd appreciate detailed clarification.

Thanks!
Recruiting Center: CFRC Hamilton
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1: Infantry Soldier
Trade Choice 2: Armoured Soldier (removed)
Trade Choice 3: Boatswain (removed)
Application Date: Sometime in 2013
First Contact: Sometime in 2013
Aptitude Test: Nov 6 2017 (passed)
Medical: Jan 22 2018
Med Fit: Oct 25 2018
Interview: Jan 22 2018 (passed)
Position Offered: Pending
Enrollment/Swear in: Pending
BMQ: Pending

Offline mariomike

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 15:01:05 »
I was looking for a more "official" answer to the questions.

From Ask a CAF Recruiter,

Questions about courses
OP: Al101
http://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,115501.msg1314829.html#msg1314829
Hello,

My names Al, and I've been looking through this forum looking for answers about various subjects and I couldn't be happier with just how helpful and awesome this forum is. However, I have a few questions of my own, and even though they may seem repetitive, allow me to apologize ahead of time. I have searched throughout the forums for answers, and even though I've found some, I still have some questions of my own.

I plan to join as Infantry NCM. I tried to message the actual forces at their official "contact us" but they replied with an automated response that had nothing to do with what I asked, which is why I'm glad I found this forum. Problem is, I'm a bit confused, honestly.

Specialty Training and Advanced Training. While I understand what they both mean, I'm unsure as how many of them you can actually do/take. For example:

I was looking through the forums and I found info about Pathfinder course, for example. I'm aware of its pre-requisites, but I'm unsure if you're able to take as many courses as possible. Without trying to sound too bold, or too silly, I have plans for the military. I have a few courses in mind, and I need to know if I'm able to do them all, excluding the requirement facts, just in general is what I mean.

My plan is pretty much to become a Sniper (surprise, surprise) and later on try for JTF2 (surprise, surprise again). Now before you say "Lol, here we go, another one of these guys." please do understand where I'm coming from. My life plan is pretty much learn as much as possible in the military to then use those skills in the police force and in "bad" real life scenarios. My major (and I guess "top" goal) in the military would be to join Special Forces, and there are various reasons for that which if I would get into them, I'd be writing an essay. Now, the courses I'm going to list are the courses that I want to know if I'm able to do them all, regardless of the time that it'll take for me to be, say, eligible for it and whatnot, before I try out, and hopefully pass, the JTF2 selection.

Now, I looked as much as I could, so if I say a course name wrong, I apologize ahead of time as the official website does not give much info on these things, like the pathfinder course (which I discovered in these forums).
Basic Parachuting
Diver (or Combat Diver?) Is this even a course, or an actual infantry occupation?
Recce (If I'm not mistaken, this is Reconnaissance, right?)
PLQ (This course is what I'm a bit confused about. Is this for Officers only or can NCMs take this as well?)
Of course, Pathfinder course which has pre-requisites which I have listed.
In the website, there are "courses" like Machinegunner, Jungle and Arctic Operations, am I able to take those as well?
And finally, Sniper.

I hope I'm not forgetting anything, and if I have any information that is not correct, I do apologize again. These are the courses that I'd like to be able to do, if possible, before doing the Sniper course. I apologize if it may seem unrealistic or just plain ridiculous but I could not get this information and since it's a "course" and not occupation, I assume you'd be able to take them all, provided of course that you are eligible, but I can always use the input of someone knowledgeable.

Also, if I may ask a question about Snipers since I could not access the threads provided in the "Life as an Infantry Soldier?" as they were "off-limits or missing".

Say I've completed Sniper selection. That would be my.."specialty", correct? But does that mean I would be doing that ONLY, or would I be, say, "selected" to do this or that (be it either sniper, machinegunner, or just plain rifleman) in that specific situation?

I believe this is it for now. If I remember anything else, I'll edit! Thanks everyone for your time, and I apologize again if this thread is ridiculous in any way.


From "Ask a CAF Recruiter"

Reply from a Recruiter to Al101,

Good day AL,

     There are many opportunities to take advanced courses and training regardless of occupational choice. However that being said some of the courses and advanced training that you have shown interest in are only available to those members employed in the infantry occupation. Once any of the courses/training are completed they are added to your military employment record as a qualification. These qualifications make you more employable to the unit that you are assigned to; meaning that if you get qualified as a sniper you may not be employed as a sniper by your unit until it is required. Once a recruit becomes a fully trained infantry solider they will have opportunities to address their willingness for advanced courses/training through their chain of command. The decision to send you on any of the courses/training that you request in your military career are based on the needs and requirements of the Canadian Armed Forces and your performance against others at the same rank level in the unit that you belong to.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 15:12:34 by mariomike »

Offline kratz

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2017, 15:04:58 »
Quote
Somehow, I don't really like the idea of somebody else having a say on what I can learn, especially if I'd be after something specific later on. Can I be told "No" simply because said person does not -want- me to? I'd love a clarification on this.

Yes, "SOMEBODY" can and might PREVENT you from doing any courses. Throughout your military career, "others" will influence your training, as much as your attitude and performance will influence potential opportunities. This is no different than applying for promotions training, or advancement with civilian jobs in the private sector.
Quote from: Pipe *General Call*
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Remember, this site is unofficial and privately owned. The site benefits from the presence of current members willing to answer questions.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 15:21:37 »
I'm trying to see if I can get a straight yes or no answer, sort of thing.

Don't expect such a thing. There are too many variables.

If you want to take any of these courses, is it really up to you or SOMEBODY? Will somebody PREVENT you from doing these courses? Think of a scenario where you're doing everything right, performance-wise and everything. Somehow, I don't really like the idea of somebody else having a say on what I can learn, especially if I'd be after something specific later on. Can I be told "No" simply because said person does not -want- me to? I'd love a clarification on this.

Many courses are competitive. Slots are limited. Those who perform better, and show an aptitude, generally stand a better chance of getting them. Some courses may only be available based upon specific need. Sometimes people get put on courses because there are slots that need filling, and nobody else is available. Sometimes people get put on courses just to get them away from their unit.

"Somebody" always has a say in what you do in the Armed Forces, which is not that different from civilian employment. "Somebody" would likely deny you a jammy course if you are a thud, with the exception stated in the last sentence of my previous paragraph.

Having said that, would I be correct to assume even if I could do such courses, I'd have to wait until they're available and not "right away" sort of thing? If that is so, how many times are they available for per year?

If a course is not available, what else can one do but wait for it?

Course availability depends on the military need to run it. Some are once annually, some are quite regular.

And in regards to courses outside of Canada, for example, I read you are able to participate in the U.S. Ranger School. Two questions. Is this only possible if your unit is doing that, or are you able to do that alone? Also, is there any other courses from any other country you are also able to do, this also includes U.S aside from Rangers?

The Ranger Course is for individuals. Whole units do not do it.

Yes, there are other courses available in other countries. They are comparatively rare.

Offline Al101

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2017, 15:30:04 »
Hello,

I was typing quite a bit, and my browser page reset and everything I typed was gone. However, after reading the new replies, my questions have indeed been answered.

I appreciate everyone's time and detailed replies, and apologies for the mess.

Also, I realize I have asked a similar question but that was 3 years ago. Many things can have changed from that time until now, hence this thread.

Thanks all again.
Recruiting Center: CFRC Hamilton
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1: Infantry Soldier
Trade Choice 2: Armoured Soldier (removed)
Trade Choice 3: Boatswain (removed)
Application Date: Sometime in 2013
First Contact: Sometime in 2013
Aptitude Test: Nov 6 2017 (passed)
Medical: Jan 22 2018
Med Fit: Oct 25 2018
Interview: Jan 22 2018 (passed)
Position Offered: Pending
Enrollment/Swear in: Pending
BMQ: Pending

Offline Loachman

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Re: Questions about Additional Infantry Training / Courses [MERGED]
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2017, 19:04:54 »
Some things do not change for decades or more.