Author Topic: Travel on weekend leave  (Read 42734 times)

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Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2018, 00:19:01 »
Except that in the case of Oracle the system is closed for the first two weeks of the new fiscal year while a central audit is carried out to ensure the system count is correct.  During this two week period you cannot enter in the system. As well you cannot amend the previous year once the audit is complete.  Each person receives an email at the end of the year confirming their leave balances/carry-overs.  I am not sure how it will work for Short Leave and Special Leave as each Command seems to have their own version of summer and December/January entitlements.  At least the member and the supervisor can sign into it at any time and see the balances and the approved leave periods.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2018, 14:23:28 »
Wait... "insert PKI card"? What, you guys don't just leave it Plugged in 24/7?......  :orly:
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Offline Terminal

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #102 on: May 29, 2018, 11:03:51 »
Wait... "insert PKI card"? What, you guys don't just leave it Plugged in 24/7?......  :orly:

I do, and it's perfectly acceptable. There's no security requirement to remove a PKI card.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #103 on: May 29, 2018, 17:10:03 »
But then you're on TD, logging in to a different computer, and realize your PKI card is 800 km away.


Or so I've heard...
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #104 on: May 30, 2018, 18:11:11 »
First off, this is a good discussion so far IMO.  Different POVs from different environments etc.

In the same way that VAC requests that you prove you were actually on the exercise/deployment, that you were doing unit-authorized PT, received permission to play intramurals through a published team roster, that people going to National Sports competitions on weekends have their CO's approval in writing.  How can you prove that you were in Toronto and not sitting in your basement mancave when you received the call from you CO.  The fact that he approved you to go to Toronto indicates that teh chain of command accepts responsibility for transit as being part of the recall.

- I do not require my CO's permission to go to Toronto, or anywhere inside Canada on a normal weekend off.  This is official CAF policy.  (I'll get to the 'can the CO make a more restrictive policy' aspect in the other part)

- When my CofC contacts me, I say "I am in Toronto right now, my flight back isn't until Sunday evening".  If they want to order me back regardless...the unit could be on the hook for the cost to get me back early.  The CO *shall ensure* the OR/URS is updated (also right in the policy);  this would also be a reasonable form of verification of my whereabouts if I am out of province via a CAL, no?

Section 2.7 Withholding and Recall From Leave

2.7.01 Policy

The policy for withholding of and recalling from leave is directed in QR&O 16.01, Withholding of and Recall from Leave.

2.7.02 General Administration

If a CF member on leave is recalled to duty, the CO shall ensure that the member's URS is notified of the details of the altered leave period.

Pursuant to CBI 209.54, Reimbursement of Expenses When Recalled From or On Cancellation of Leave and CBI 209.50, Transportation on Leave, a member who is recalled from leave may be entitled to reimbursement of additional expenses.

- the *Toronto and not in my mancave* aspect.  Well, to start with, are we treating CAF members like adults, convicts or children?  I treat my subordinates like adults until they give me a reason not to.  If I am in TO, I'll have (in my case) plane tickets.  If I was closer, and driving, it's pretty easy for me to hit an ATM and withdraw $20.  I use receipts all the time travelling to prove where I was, at what time (example, proceeding on TD I hit the ATM at the end of my street to show what time I left home). 

Quote
As for Base recall limits, many Base Sharepoint sites/Standing Orders include a map showing acceptable living from Base distances and ask people to sign a Statement of Understanding.  Please don't say not everyone does that, I know; the many Bases I am familiar still do.

Geo boundaries aren't tied directly to leave policy and it is possible to live outside those boundaries (I myself live outside my base geo boundaries with approval from my Sqn, Wing and DCBA).  However, living in or outside the boundaries doesn't affect if I require to inform my unit where I am on non-duty times.

Quote
As for what a CO can do QR&O is your source once again:

4.20 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF A COMMANDING OFFICER
(1) A commanding officer is responsible for the whole of the organization and safety of the commanding officer's base, unit or element, but the detailed distribution of work between the commanding officer and subordinates is left substantially to the commanding officer's discretion.

(2) Unless otherwise provided in QR&O, a commanding officer may allocate to officers, who are immediately subordinate to the commanding officer, all matters of routine or of minor administration.

(3) A commanding officer shall retain for himself:

matters of general organization and policy;
important matters requiring the commanding officer's personal attention and decision; and
the general control and supervision of the various duties that the commanding officer has allocated to others.
(4) A commanding officer of a base, unit or element shall ensure that all works and buildings at the base, unit or element are properly safeguarded at all times.

(C) [24 April 2007]

4.21 - STANDING ORDERS
(1) A commanding officer shall issue standing orders which shall include orders that are peculiar to the commanding officer's base, unit or element.

(2) An officer in temporary command of a base, unit or element shall not issue standing orders, nor alter those already in force, without reference to the officer in permanent command or to superior authority.

(3) Where a commanding officer is away from the base, unit or element, that officer shall not issue standing orders.

(C)

[4.22 to 4.25 inclusive: not allocated]

I'm looking for the part in the above ref that states "COs may ignore orders including DAODs, CFAOs, or other duly authorized policy from any superior officers when writing their own unit orders". 

A few years ago, a unit CO wrote a more restrictive Leave Policy for weekends/non-duty time.  It basically stated you had to have a leave pass to be away overnight and that to leave the geographical boundaries, you needed a leave pass as well.  All unit members were required to sign saying they were briefed and aware.  This unit also had a standby sub-unit 24/7/365 as it was both a high ready/op tempo unit and one required by its HHQ to maintain a standby subunit regularly (every day of the year).  Therefore, if a recall was to happen or a tasking, etc there was always people 'on call' to handle it.  As this new leave policy was contrary to the CAF leave policy, it was given to a CAF policy SME for their review and thoughts, who presented it to the local AJAG office.  The AJAG assessment was:

- the CO already had a designated standby sub-unit, IAW orders from HHQ, to handle weekend taskings.  Those people were already on duty, with their movement restricted.
- the CO has to have an actual military requirement to restrict members' movements outside of duty hours.  "something might happen that the duty sub-unit can't handle" isn't an actual military requirement that would give the CO a reason to restrict all unit members' movements during non-duty hours.  As there was no 'task' identified with the restriction, there was no military requirement for the unit policy.
- the line between on duty and off duty is clear;  if a member is off duty, their travel is restricted to the CAF policy as laid out in the Leave Manual.  If they are at home on a weekend but 'on call/standby', their status is actually 'on duty' and they are bound to the details of that duty as laid out in orders, etc.

*not long after, incidentally, the leave policy component of the Unit Orders was rewritten, with non-duty restrictions for weekdays and weekends going back to the Leave Policy Manual version.

The LegO also stated that there would be no grounds to charge someone for leaving the geo boundaries on non-duty time, including weekends, unless they were unable to return to their place of duty at the next expected time (0800 Monday for most people after the weekend) as detailed in Unit Orders.  The aspect of admin action was also touched on, with words to the effect of "the redress authority would basically have no choice but to grant redress if someone grieved admin actions such as RMs, because the CAF policy is IAW with the Leave Manual".

The QR & O you ref above doesn't grant COs blanket authority to completely ignore policies that (1) are authorized by a higher authority than they are  and (2) apply to all CAF members [most DAODs have this line in them for a reason].  I'll use the example of 15 days Ann Leave.  Can the CO of a busy, high op tempo unit tell me I am being restricted to 15 days Ann Leave this year?  No.  The amount of leave I am entitled to is decided above the CO level.  He/she can, however, deny leave for military requirements and cause that some of my leave is accumulated (I've done that, too).

Both the Policy SME (a staff officer/advisor to a GOFO) and the LegO that reviewed, provided assessment and opinion felt the COs policy was overly restrictive, but the LegO really focused in on the 'restriction of movement' aspect.  Of importance, to me at least;  I don't use this information to support my stance, I base my stance on this information/review from a few years ago now.

Lastly, I'll add these parts that I recall from the email chain from the Policy SME/LegO.  These were indicated as important passages from the Leave Policy Manual and the applic DAOD, to what extent I don't recall exactly.  What I recall with the most clarity is the fixation on the 'restriction of members movement during off duty periods'.

Leave Policy Manual

Application

Unless otherwise indicated, this manual applies to all members of the Canadian Forces (CF).  [there is no indication that 2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays doesn't apply to 'all CAF mbrs']

Approval Authority

The Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual is issued under the authority of the Chief Military Personnel (CMP).

Reference

Source reference - DAOD 5060-0, Leave

DAOD 5060-0, Leave

Application: This DAOD is an order that applies to officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF members).

Approval Authority: Chief of Military Personnel (CMP)

2. Policy Direction

2.4 The CAF shall:

c. manage leave in accordance with A-PP-005-LVE/AG-001, Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual;

3. Authorities

Authority Table

3.1 The following table identifies the authorities associated with this DAOD:

The …                              has the authority to …

CMP                            develop and approve leave policy.

*note - no wording saying "local commanders, COs, etc can develop their own leave policies...".


In comparison, though CFP 265 gives "local commanders" explicit authority to control their subordinates on that subj.

Foreword

1.A-DH-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Armed Forces Dress Instructions, is issued on authority of the Chief of Defence Staff.

CHAPTER 1

3. Changes in dress policy, dress instructions or uniforms, or in the designs of uniforms, uniform accessories, accoutrements or insignia, shall only be made with the approval of the CDS or, on his behalf, by the Chief Military Personnel, National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ/CMP).

7. Control is exercised by local commanders who may standardize the dress of subordinates on any occasion, including the wear of accoutrements and alternative or optional items, subject to overall command direction.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 07:58:20 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Tcm621

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #105 on: May 30, 2018, 22:46:26 »
EITS, It doesn't stop COs for making those orders. My current unit has a weekend leave pass requirement in their SQN Orders. The problem is that fighting it is bad for your career, even though they are wrong.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #106 on: May 30, 2018, 23:01:20 »
EITS, It doesn't stop COs for making those orders. My current unit has a weekend leave pass requirement in their SQN Orders. The problem is that fighting it is bad for your career, even though they are wrong.

See also the OAG's opening comments on his most recent audit, describing the public service - "An obedient culture that puts itself at risk of failure": http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/parl_oag_201805_00_e_43032.html

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #107 on: May 31, 2018, 07:18:45 »
EITS, It doesn't stop COs for making those orders. My current unit has a weekend leave pass requirement in their SQN Orders. The problem is that fighting it is bad for your career, even though they are wrong.

I know, and part of the problem is COs and others in higher authority positions making improper decisions and implementing policy with no real accountability unless, or even after, it is challenged.  Anyone who disagrees only needs to peruse this website to see it is a problem in the CAF. 

There is a way to challenge it, if people see the value in it.  Personally, I think anyone who is in a leadership position/role in a unit has a responsibility to ensure the policies and orders that impact their subordinates are IAW CAF policies, regulations, etc and to bring discrepancies up to their CofC.  It's part of the leadership function, isn't it? 

Another additional comment WRT 'mbrs won't be covered by VAC is they aren't on leave'.  There's a lot or urban myth about VAC coverage in the CAF;  "you won't be covered if you aren't wearing your issued boots", and stuff like that.  As a serving member with a disability pension, I can say I was never asked during my VAC claim process what kit I was wearing, did I have non-issued kit on, anything (I was injured on a parachute landing).  All they cared about, really, was the part on the CF98 that asked (1) was the injury during a duty period and (2) was related to the performance of a military task, or words to that effect.

IAW the CAF Leave Manual Policy, COs are responsible to contact the URS (Base/Wing OR, etc) if they recall a member from leave.  Weekends off are still considered weekend leave, the difference is the CAF doesn't require a leave pass for weekend leave if you aren't leaving Canada (assuming you're posted in Canada).  Basically its worded 'weekends are still considered leave, you only need a leave pass if you're leaving the country or using some other type of leave with it, like a Friday as an Ann Lve day" to me ( I know there's opinions to the opposite, however I think everyone would agree that either way you're not on duty).

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays...

If I'm in Toronto and get recalled, I am no longer on leave.  QR & O, Vol 1, Ch 16, Art 16.01 (3):

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled.

What more do I need to provide VAC that I was 'on duty' from the moment I was recalled and during my entire journey to my place of duty ???

Conversely, if I am in Toronto for a weekend and I get injured somehow...VAC won't likely be involved because I am just travelling during off-duty period.  Not on duty makes it hard for the injury to be duty related IMO.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 08:57:47 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Tcm621

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #108 on: June 04, 2018, 16:05:46 »
This came up again today at work. One person was saying a friend of his had been charged in Borden for AWOL because he was in Toronto for the weekend without a leave pass and being found guilty. The CF leave Policy manual gives 4 times when a leave pass for weekend leave can be required. 1. to connect work days on a longer period of leave. 2 travel to a foreign country 3 when travel benefits are requested and 4 for ration accounting purposes (you are not supposed to get charged for rations while on leave even though I have never actually seen it happen). Based on my reading, no other reasoning could be considered lawful. people on short notice to move aren't really on leave, they are merely working on call.

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
•when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
•when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
•when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #109 on: June 04, 2018, 16:27:54 »
This came up again today at work. One person was saying a friend of his had been charged in Borden for AWOL because he was in Toronto for the weekend without a leave pass and being found guilty...

“...Borden...” Was the individual on course?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #110 on: June 04, 2018, 16:37:38 »
One person was saying a friend of his had been charged in Borden for AWOL because he was in Toronto for the weekend without a leave pass and being found guilty...people on short notice to move aren't really on leave, they are merely working on call.

Was this person on 'duty'?  Duty NCO, Duty Sup Tech, something like that?  If that was the case and TO is farther than the mbr should have been away from the base...c'est la vie.

“...Borden...” Was the individual on course?

Not really relevant.  I am on course, TDd away from my home unit.  I still don't need a leave pass to go to Toronto from the weekend and I'm much farther from TO than Borden is.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 16:41:14 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #111 on: June 04, 2018, 16:58:37 »
Not really relevant.  I am on course, TDd away from my home unit.  I still don't need a leave pass to go to Toronto from the weekend and I'm much farther from TO than Borden is.

It’s relevant if there was an individual policy/directive put in place for a specific course, contrary to standard leave policies, which does occur.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #112 on: June 04, 2018, 17:31:51 »
You would think that Borden would get this right as it is where CFLTC is located but I know better after attending the place so much.

I am betting that the charges never left the base, maybe not even the school.  The place still operates so much in the past.  Guessing they are still issuing leave passes that expire at 1600hrs on Sunday as well as enforcing the leave pass required to be away from base on the weekends. 

Beyond - the problem there is they do not have the authority to issue such policy/directive. All leave must be administered within the CFLPM.
“non-commissioned officer (NCO)” means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal.

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2018, 17:39:55 »
It’s relevant if there was an individual policy/directive put in place for a specific course, contrary to standard leave policies, which does occur.

Yes, it does occur but it shouldn't be.  I posted the 'what happened at a unit 2 years ago' part above where both a policy SME (Staff Officer for a Flag O) and an AJAG reviewed, etc.  What will change it?  Well, challenging it in a professional manner.  Not everyone can be scared to throw rocks into calm water...

But, this happens mostly, in my experience, on courses at the QL3/DP1 whatever its called level; most of them don't know what the policy is (It is whatever the WO/Sgt/MCpl says it is!).  It is, IMO, a leadership failure.  We used to have a sign out book, and that was before the CFLPM...and a leave pass requirement if going out of province (using Gagetown as an example).  The sign out book was great - where I am going, how I am travelling, when I plan on being back, contact number of the place I am going (before cell phone days...).

This (400 different 'leave policies' across a small military like we have) is the problem and the CFLPM was brought into being, partially, to standardize leave across the CAF.  My base doesn't even process 'weekend leave passes' anymore, other's charge people for not filling them out yet the CFLPM clearly states "not required" and the Leave DAOD says the CMP is authorized to devise/approve leave policy.  The purpose of a pan-CAF policy is to set a CAF standard (at least, partially).   :dunno:

Using my default example from before, can the CO at Unit X in Borden decide all NCMs below the rank of Sgt shall only get 15 days annual leave this year?  No.  They don't decide that policy.

But, the way the post was made, it sounded like the individ 'might' have been on some kind of 'on call' (duty) list...Tcm might have more details.  If I went to Toronto when I'm on Standby and I got called it, I'd be expecting a CM not a ST.   :2c:
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 18:10:28 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2018, 17:43:05 »
leave passes that expire at 1600hrs on Sunday as well as enforcing the leave pass required to be away from base on the weekends. 

I remember the "on leave after duty on Friday until 1800hrs Sunday leave passes.  I saw people get charged and found guilty at ST for being 'late' as well! 

Now, having a sign out book is reasonable, IMO...
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Offline sidemount

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #115 on: June 04, 2018, 17:58:13 »
Was this person on 'duty'?  Duty NCO, Duty Sup Tech, something like that?  If that was the case and TO is farther than the mbr should have been away from the base...c'est la vie.

Not really relevant.  I am on course, TDd away from my home unit.  I still don't need a leave pass to go to Toronto from the weekend and I'm much farther from TO than Borden is.
Kind of relevant. If the person was on course then they are likely living in quarters  and eating at the mess. In which case that would fall under the Rations rule in the leave manual as the rations are continouous even if it is only for a short duration. And CFTPO/TD should not matter as someone/place is paying for those rations. Therefore a weekend leavepass should be produced as it falls within the policy.

However if you are not on rations then no leavepass would be required and Id be fighting the charge.

The only other thing I can see possibly happening is the being on course is considered on duty all the time including weekends....I wonder if that argument has ever been made.

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #116 on: June 04, 2018, 18:06:12 »
Kind of relevant. If the person was on course then they are likely living in quarters  and eating at the mess. In which case that would fall under the Rations rule in the leave manual as the rations are continouous even if it is only for a short duration. And CFTPO/TD should not matter as someone/place is paying for those rations. Therefore a weekend leavepass should be produced as it falls within the policy.

*if* they are.  I am on course/TD but not living in quarters or eating at a mess right now (it's possible).  Good point though; I completely missed that part.  Guess I should be focusing on studying not this thread and doing both half-arse.

So...what about if they aren't on 'full rations'?  they aren't paying for wknd rations then, only lunch and supper Mon-Fri (in some cases).


Quote
The only other thing I can see possibly happening is the being on course is considered on duty all the time including weekends....I wonder if that argument has ever been made.



There are ways they can do that;  think of Indoc at CFLRS.  I've also seen 'confined to base' weekends on courses over the years - QL3, CLC, etc.

Lots we don't know about the circumstances other than...."Borden".   ;D
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 18:21:12 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Tcm621

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #117 on: June 04, 2018, 18:10:23 »
From my understanding this was a Ql3 course student. And in this case the rations clause could be a reason, if they didn't charge for rations while you are on leave, which I have never seen. To top it off, if I eat pizza all weekend in my shacks doesn't it amount to the same thing.

Edit for autocorrect
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 21:35:15 by Tcm621 »

Offline sidemount

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #118 on: June 04, 2018, 18:12:46 »
*if* they are.  I am on course/TD but not living in quarters or eating at a mess right now (it's possible).  Good point though;  so...what about if they aren't on 'full rations'?  they aren't paying for wknd rations then, only lunch and supper Mon-Fri (in some cases).


There are ways they can do that;  think of Indoc at CFLRS.  I've also seen 'confined to base' weekends on courses over the years - QL3, CLC, etc.

Lots we don't know about the circumstances other than...."Borden".   ;D
Borden....yup that about says it all :)
So many loopholes that could have been used especially if they are a Private who doesnt know how to look up policy.


To be honest, everything is a swipe card now anyway....why not just go with a "pay as you use" card and axe the rations reason all together.



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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #119 on: June 04, 2018, 18:15:35 »
To be honest, everything is a swipe card now anyway....why not just go with a "pay as you use" card and axe the rations reason all together.




Cmdts/COs of TE can 'administer' their candidates effectively with the ration part in place? 
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #120 on: June 04, 2018, 18:17:52 »
To top it off, if I eat pizza all weekend in my shacks doesn't it amount to the same thing.

Not if you didn't leave the base and go to Toronto  :D
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #121 on: June 04, 2018, 18:22:16 »
Lots we don't know about the circumstances other than...."Borden".   ;D

Yup, and some of us were trying to gather more info to stave off at least a bit of speculation before our inquiry was labelled as irrelevant.  ::)
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #122 on: June 04, 2018, 18:29:33 »
And that was my bad.  I never thought about the 'on course and rations' part   :whistle:  (if that is where you were leaning...I thought you were going on the 'on course' part vice the rations, which I completely missed)

 ;D

Good catch on your and Sidemount's part though! 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 18:34:24 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline sidemount

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #123 on: June 04, 2018, 18:31:38 »
And that was my bad.  I never thought about the 'on course and rations' part   :whistle:

 ;D

Good catch on your and Sidemount's part though!
I only thought about it as Im heading to Borden for course on CFTPO in a few weeks haha.

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Travel on weekend leave
« Reply #124 on: June 04, 2018, 18:35:19 »
I only thought about it as Im heading to Borden for course on CFTPO in a few weeks haha.

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And I didn't think of it because I am on course, TD and not paying for rations or staying in SQs.  And...I should be studying not...this.  ha!
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.