Author Topic: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy  (Read 111975 times)

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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #225 on: July 29, 2017, 07:22:22 »
Context is everything, Max. Getting casually pissed in your USN whites on a week night in home port- not condoned.

Getting gooned at Fleet Week? That seems to be a whole other ball game to the USN....

Not everything is about drinking during these festivities but if you want to have a drink or many the US is not under the same restrictions as we are. The US as we are still under the "don't get into crap" rule.You get out of line you pay the consequences. I find our restrictions kill the fun for the kids, especially in regards to the uniform restrictions and alcohol policy.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #226 on: July 29, 2017, 10:44:11 »
Not everything is about drinking during these festivities but if you want to have a drink or many the US is not under the same restrictions as we are. The US as we are still under the "don't get into crap" rule.You get out of line you pay the consequences. I find our restrictions kill the fun for the kids, especially in regards to the uniform restrictions and alcohol policy.

If people want to have a drink, they should be allowed.  Getting trashed in another story.  We have QR&Os/CSD for a reason.

I drink all the time in uniform, usually at lunch when I feel like having a beer before going back to the office.  It's not illegal to drink alcohol so why does the CAF treat alcohol like it's some sort of capital crime?


Offline mariomike

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #227 on: July 29, 2017, 11:12:19 »
See also,

At the pub
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=92199.0
OP: "You're 30 seconds in side the door and are promptly chewed out in front of everyone by some guy in the CF."



« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 10:06:27 by mariomike »

Offline Pusser

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #228 on: August 02, 2017, 10:23:48 »
If people want to have a drink, they should be allowed.  Getting trashed in another story.  We have QR&Os/CSD for a reason.

I drink all the time in uniform, usually at lunch when I feel like having a beer before going back to the office.  It's not illegal to drink alcohol so why does the CAF treat alcohol like it's some sort of capital crime?

Actually, the CAF doesn't.  There may be some local policies at play in some locations, but there is no regulation prohibiting the consumption of alcohol in uniform.  There are a host of other regulations against being a jackass, but they're not necessarily uniform dependant.  No, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a drink in a public place in uniform, provided it is legal to have a drink there in the first place and that you don't do something stupid.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline stoker dave

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #229 on: September 05, 2017, 10:26:49 »
Actually, the CAF doesn't.  There may be some local policies at play in some locations, but there is no regulation prohibiting the consumption of alcohol in uniform.  There are a host of other regulations against being a jackass, but they're not necessarily uniform dependant.  No, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a drink in a public place in uniform, provided it is legal to have a drink there in the first place and that you don't do something stupid.

Hi folks.  Long time lurker here.  Just got around to registering. 

I have registered explicitly for the purpose of responding to that comment above.

Am a former MSEO.  I completed my training and contractual obligations, then left to work for an engineering company.  I have worked at various firms over the last 23 years (yes, it has been that long since I wore a uniform).

While there may be no rules against you having a beer at lunch, I will say that it makes you look ridiculous.  It shows you don't take your work seriously or your career seriously.  There are very, very few people I know (mostly engineers, engineering technicians and labourers) who would ever even consider having a beer at lunch.  Drinking is absolutely frowned upon by anyone whose job requires important decisions, operation of equipment or supporting operations.  At most work sites, drinking at lunch will get you fired. 

I have been to gatherings where there are, say, 100 people present (all senior engineering types).  All are drinking water or pop, except for four guys in uniform in the corner who are drinking beer.  They were the laughingstock of the meeting (but everyone was too polite to point this out).

So here's a lesson guys:  to be taken seriously, stop drinking at lunch.  It is not cool.  It is not generally a good idea.  It makes you look like an amateur. 

Offline mariomike

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #230 on: September 05, 2017, 11:02:48 »
The post above is about non-CAF employers, so I will add mine.

No comment on the RCN "Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy" and traditions, as I never served in the RCN.

At most work sites, drinking at lunch will get you fired. 

Drinking was a firing offence at my former work site.

"No employee will report to work, consume while at work, have in their possession, or respond to a call while under the influence of any type of alcohol or drugs.

No employee shall purchase, have in their possession or consume alcoholic beverages while in uniform."

The second sentence applied to conduct off-duty, if in uniform.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:16:58 by mariomike »

Offline Pusser

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #231 on: September 05, 2017, 11:32:44 »
Hi folks.  Long time lurker here.  Just got around to registering. 

I have registered explicitly for the purpose of responding to that comment above.

Am a former MSEO.  I completed my training and contractual obligations, then left to work for an engineering company.  I have worked at various firms over the last 23 years (yes, it has been that long since I wore a uniform).

While there may be no rules against you having a beer at lunch, I will say that it makes you look ridiculous.  It shows you don't take your work seriously or your career seriously.  There are very, very few people I know (mostly engineers, engineering technicians and labourers) who would ever even consider having a beer at lunch.  Drinking is absolutely frowned upon by anyone whose job requires important decisions, operation of equipment or supporting operations.  At most work sites, drinking at lunch will get you fired. 

I have been to gatherings where there are, say, 100 people present (all senior engineering types).  All are drinking water or pop, except for four guys in uniform in the corner who are drinking beer.  They were the laughingstock of the meeting (but everyone was too polite to point this out).

So here's a lesson guys:  to be taken seriously, stop drinking at lunch.  It is not cool.  It is not generally a good idea.  It makes you look like an amateur.

Little judgemental don't you think?  Having a drink makes you a laughing stock?  Really?  I can understand excessive drinking being a problem, but having a drink at lunch is not inherently bad.  Consumption does not equal drunk or unable to think clearly.  If the civilian engineering world is really that judgemental today, then it has really changed a lot.  There was a time when every executive had a stocked bar in their office.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline mariomike

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #232 on: September 05, 2017, 11:48:48 »
There was a time when every executive had a stocked bar in their office.

 :)

Offline NavalMoose

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #233 on: September 05, 2017, 12:05:29 »
stoker dave, here's a lesson for you...if you want to be taken seriously, don't preach to professionals in an organization where it seems you did the minimum required, got some paid education, saw a few places and then left.  Well done to you if things worked out ok for you, but the condescending tone is not necessary.

Offline Colin P

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #234 on: September 05, 2017, 12:31:54 »
Some work sites don’t let drink at all, some allow a certain amount at times, generally after hours. When your work site is also your home for 6 months, then it’s a bit more complicated. Generally allowing a certain amount at specified times is way better than trying to ban it. Then you get people doing stuff like crack, so their system is “clean” for the urine test. Funny enough if you treat people like adults and intervene with good leadership with the people that can’t adult, then it’s way better than outright bans. There are times and places for outright bans, but far to many companies default to it because it’s easier than thinking, planning and having good leaders/supervisors.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #235 on: September 05, 2017, 13:55:27 »
Little judgemental don't you think?  Having a drink makes you a laughing stock?  Really?  I can understand excessive drinking being a problem, but having a drink at lunch is not inherently bad.

I'm inclined to somewhat agree with Stoker Dave.  No issues with grabbing a drink for lunch but I've found in in the CAF people will seem to almost have to make a showing of them drinking at social events.  Like it's bragging rights to have a table full of empties ordering 4 beer at a time and everyone around knows they're in the military.  Weddings and social evens with mil pers and civilians mixed lead to pretty good examples of this.

I'll draw on my non-existent psychology degree and say we, the CAF, cause this by making a huge deal of soldiers being dry then rewarding them with alcohol. So when adults in the military have an opportunity to drink at an event they jump in with both feet.   
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 13:58:12 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #236 on: September 05, 2017, 14:44:22 »
Back in the day (early 90's) we used to have a canteen at DC DIV and at lunch hour buy a couple of beers and go fight fires. Today, I would say everything in moderation, if I was to go out at lunch and have a beer it shouldn't be a problem. It all depends what I have to do afterwards in regards to my duties.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #237 on: September 05, 2017, 14:56:42 »
I have personally witnessed German workers have a beer on lunch break, then continue on the job site.

So, it kind of depends on the culture. Alcohol is neither inherently good nor bad.

Offline mariomike

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #238 on: September 05, 2017, 16:33:30 »
I have personally witnessed German workers have a beer on lunch break, then continue on the job site.

So, it kind of depends on the culture. Alcohol is neither inherently good nor bad.

I knew a guy who used to open an airline bottle of vodka at 0900. He mixed it with orange juice and enjoyed it as a breakfast beverage.  :)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 16:51:45 by mariomike »

Offline George Wallace

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #239 on: September 05, 2017, 18:06:28 »
I have personally witnessed German workers have a beer on lunch break, then continue on the job site.

So, it kind of depends on the culture. Alcohol is neither inherently good nor bad.

Whole different culture.  You get a beer with your meals in German Hospitals.  While we had a CFE, the German CE workers had it right in their contracts that they could have a beer with their meal and coffee breaks.  You actually seldom saw any really drunk Germans anywhere; except on the day when they had finished their Compulsory Service in the Bundeswehr  [cheers]

I think many of our problems actually date back to the landing of the Puritans at Plymouth Rock and then the arrival later of religious sects that demonized alcohol as they spread throughout North America.  Not even the French and Scottish influences could stop their ideals.  Europe, Central and South America, etc. never saw anything like the years of Prohibition that North America saw.

Looks like we have the 'Tea Toddlers" now in power and instead of breeding adults educated in the use of alcohol, they are treating everyone as a child who needs to be saved from sin.

History can be very cyclic if we don't learn from it.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #240 on: September 06, 2017, 09:42:44 »
Back in the day (early 90's) we used to have a canteen at DC DIV and at lunch hour buy a couple of beers and go fight fires. Today, I would say everything in moderation, if I was to go out at lunch and have a beer it shouldn't be a problem. It all depends what I have to do afterwards in regards to my duties.

I always thought it was odd back in the 80s/90s that the West Coast DC School banned alcohol at lunch and even went so far as to prohibit folks from imbibing at any of the numerous drinking establishments on the Old Island Highway.  Yet, the East Coast DC School sold beer in the canteen. :nod:
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #241 on: September 06, 2017, 16:06:19 »
Hi folks.  Long time lurker here.  Just got around to registering. 

I have registered explicitly for the purpose of responding to that comment above.

Am a former MSEO.  I completed my training and contractual obligations, then left to work for an engineering company.  I have worked at various firms over the last 23 years (yes, it has been that long since I wore a uniform).

While there may be no rules against you having a beer at lunch, I will say that it makes you look ridiculous.  It shows you don't take your work seriously or your career seriously.  There are very, very few people I know (mostly engineers, engineering technicians and labourers) who would ever even consider having a beer at lunch.  Drinking is absolutely frowned upon by anyone whose job requires important decisions, operation of equipment or supporting operations.  At most work sites, drinking at lunch will get you fired. 

I have been to gatherings where there are, say, 100 people present (all senior engineering types).  All are drinking water or pop, except for four guys in uniform in the corner who are drinking beer.  They were the laughingstock of the meeting (but everyone was too polite to point this out).

So here's a lesson guys:  to be taken seriously, stop drinking at lunch.  It is not cool.  It is not generally a good idea.  It makes you look like an amateur.

Depends what you are doing in the CAF; if you show up to afternoon meetings after having a few beers at lunch, people will notice. Some units do have specific alcohol policies but most don't as you are expected to be an adult. It's a crazy concept.

Also, in the majority of the conferences, professional society meetings, defence exhibits etc all the actual networking and sidebars happens over coffee during the day and over beer/wine afterwards.

TL;DR you can have a beer and be professional if you understand the circumstances, don't be a judgemental dink now that you left the mob.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #242 on: September 06, 2017, 16:36:48 »
TL;DR you can have a beer and be professional if you understand the circumstances, don't be a judgemental dink now that you left the mob.

Agreed on all counts. 

Being self-righteous, judgemental, or just plain off the wall offensive and treating others like children only makes for the likelihood of them beginning to act like children.  This just reinforces the opinion that the "PURITAN" culture we see in North America, that is not seen in other countries, is what drives some peoples views on alcohol.  Instead of 'educating' they find it much easier to 'condemn'.
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Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #243 on: September 06, 2017, 16:54:13 »
I find it ironic that while the CAF has policies to discourage abuse of alcohol, it's own internal policies and business practices seems to drive a lot of people to want to abuse alcohol to stay sane.

Things like spending weeks to get travel approval for Canada mandated meetings with contractors, the 3,765,831 approval gates within projects, numerous reporting requirements of the same information in different formats to multiple organizations (that generally ignore it anyway), consensus building amongst 'key stakeholders' to get any decisions made (only to have the final decision to delay making a decision) and the numerous hurdles you need to clear to get things done all make relaxing once in a while necessary to maintain sanity, and sometimes that means you have a beer while talking with people that is about something other than the ridiculous bureaucracy that you fight every single day (you can only spend so much time in the gym).

I'm more impressed things ever get done within our procurement / PM system than disappointed at the failures of large complex programs, given the ludicrous limitations and restrictions people have to fight through.  It also makes conspiracy theories laughable as there is no way any group larger than about 12-15 people can ever be that coordinated to pull anything big off in secret, let alone have 'the government' plan major crises to further some sneaky agenda.

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #244 on: September 06, 2017, 17:08:31 »
 :goodpost:

I'm shocked to have been able to accomplish what I have so far.  Red tape city.  No wonder we want a drink at times...

Offline NavyPhoenix

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #245 on: September 07, 2017, 13:47:29 »
During my first stint in the CAF in the early 90's, I was an Air Force Transportation Officer. This was before email (actually, before we even really had computers). Going to the Officer's Mess for lunch and having a beer (and I mean just one) and having discussions with fellow officers more often than not lead to the resolution of issues that would have taken forever with memos, minute sheets and thousand milers. No one got "drunk". You went back to the office and closed the loop on those issues that got resolved by having a good 'face to face' with someone over said beer.

Alcohol is not the issue. It is the consumers who can not control themselves that are.

Offline Pusser

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #246 on: September 08, 2017, 10:53:10 »
During my first stint in the CAF in the early 90's, I was an Air Force Transportation Officer. This was before email (actually, before we even really had computers). Going to the Officer's Mess for lunch and having a beer (and I mean just one) and having discussions with fellow officers more often than not lead to the resolution of issues that would have taken forever with memos, minute sheets and thousand milers. No one got "drunk". You went back to the office and closed the loop on those issues that got resolved by having a good 'face to face' with someone over said beer.

Alcohol is not the issue. It is the consumers who can not control themselves that are.

Tangent:  the sad part is that email has not made this easier.  In fact, it has made it more complex.  In the old days, a single file folder circulated with everything on the subject contained inside (memos with minutes attached) so a complete understanding could be had by simply reading the whole file.  Nowadays, emails circulate and can be split into many strings with multiple attachments and addressees being added and removed (sometimes intentionally, sometimes not), with no real control.  It can get very confusing, to the point, where alcohol becomes an actual solution...
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.