Author Topic: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy  (Read 111986 times)

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2014, 21:00:26 »
So if beer/liquor is the same price on board as ashore, why socialize in the sausage party messes at all?  I can see more people running ashore the first night and doing stupid **** then just having a few beers and getting confined to the ship due to the combination of exhaustion/alcohol.

This won't be the single factor, but one more 'cut' contributing to overall dissatisfaction in being in the navy for those close to the line already.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2014, 21:56:48 »
Seems like drinking is a pretty big deal in the Navy.   Does the navy set up an environment where drinking every day is the norm?
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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2014, 22:10:24 »
There Army moved away from freely available alcohol in the field (save special occasions like a smoker) over a decade ago.  We survived.  So will the Navy.
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Offline devil39

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2014, 22:51:55 »
There Army moved away from freely available alcohol in the field (save special occasions like a smoker) over a decade ago.  We survived.  So will the Navy.

Yup....but anyone who thinks that the Army is as much fun today as it was in the '80s or '90s (or 60's or 70s?) would be lying.....or maybe they weren't around then....   

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2014, 22:52:51 »
There Army moved away from freely available alcohol in the field (save special occasions like a smoker) over a decade ago.  We survived.  So will the Navy.
Yes, and we'll have some of the same problems the Army does too when they get around booze.  I was with 1CMBG before beer went away and I was in Wainwright for Maple Guardian etc in 09 for Roto 7 to the end and saw the effects of a sudden access drinks.  Cutting it off can only make it worse for some when they get their mitts on it.  We see it with the USN all the time.  The Army doesn't have all the answers, nor does the RCN for that matter.  We'll survive, yes, but there will be some headaches that come with it.

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2014, 22:57:51 »
Yup....but anyone who thinks that the Army is as much fun today as it was in the '80s or '90s (or 60's or 70s?) would be lying.....or maybe they weren't around then....

I dunno, I'm having fun.  So are my troops.  Things change, and you don't necessarily need to be buzzing to have fun.

Yes, and we'll have some of the same problems the Army does too when they get around booze.  I was with 1CMBG before beer went away and I was in Wainwright for Maple Guardian etc in 09 for Roto 7 to the end and saw the effects of a sudden access drinks.  Cutting it off can only make it worse for some when they get their mitts on it.  We see it with the USN all the time.  The Army doesn't have all the answers, nor does the RCN for that matter.  We'll survive, yes, but there will be some headaches that come with it.

Agreed.  Binge drinking is the real problem, and I think that it occurs regardless of whether guys can have 1 or 2 per night or not.
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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2014, 23:19:55 »
I believe binge drinking is going to be more of a problem if adults are muzzled most of the time.  Yes, I agree there are some (and they are a small minority) that have a problem with handling their booze regardless of it being available on a small regular basis or on an unregulated opportunity such as decompression or foreign ports.  The bad apples should get properly dealt with by their respective CoC should they cross the line.  I don't buy into the mob punishment mentality that is a common theme in the military.  Treat everyone like adults and usually they will respond in kind.  Those that don't, get spanked.

If you make something taboo then it will be abused harder than if it's not.  That is human nature.  Command will as I said, on occasion, rue this decision when it blows up in their face and onto CBC ala the Whitehorse.  And it will happen one day.  We'll be just like the Yanks in port, especially if the booze is as expensive or more so than downtown.  No-one will want to stick on board and will take it downtown.

This will I am sure make some decide to leave.  To some it will be another burr under the saddle blanket of enjoyment that will add to their reasons as to why it's becoming less fun.  And believe me, the Navy has been steadily whittling away on the fun factor for a number of years now bit by bit.  Will it make for a better Navy?   :dunno:  I do hope so for the institution's sake as they seem to be hell bent on pissing folks off with things like Spec Pay for Stokers etc. 

I'm in a shore posting at present and if the gods are kind will be moving on to civilian life next year so I don't have a dog in the fight, per se.  I don't get hammered at sea, and have no issue with the locks on while in the box but this is a another burr under my saddle blanket to go with the others.


Offline George Wallace

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2014, 23:34:48 »
.....or maybe they weren't around then....

That about says it.  They weren't around, so have no idea what they are missing.  It seems that in the late '80's and into the '90's the trend to take all the fun out of a dirty job, and make it just a dirty job happened.  I don't know the numbers or stats, but it seemed like a lot of good people were taking Releases in the late '90's into 2003 or so.  That compounded the situation of all the Retiring pers from the '60/70's.
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Offline MCG

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2014, 00:22:13 »
I don't see why denying a couple drinks per day is required.  That being said, if not having that daily drink or two requires somebody to binge drink the next time there is alcohol, then that individual may have a problem.  Under previous rules, was there a limit on the number of drinks an individual could have on any given day?

I have heard of other recent incidents of fairly significant shenanigans involving senior leadership and alcohol requiring involvement of investigators from outside the ship to resolve, and I gather from comments in this thread that alcohol incidents are not uncommon problems.  It would seem the Navy has reached the point where it feels that it must cause a cultural correction within itself.

Where a unit's culture of discipline (potentially including deportment, bearing, military routine, conduct, etc) is eroded, I have heard my sergeant major observe that the correction requires one to "go ugly early."  Parades/roll-calls, inspections and enforcement of rules increases while freedoms, exceptions, and liberties are constrained .... at the unit level it can be a lot like imposing a junior career course daily routine less the classes.  However, it needs to be communicated that the "ugly" is a path to a cultural correction and it needs to be communicated what criteria must be achieved to see a lessening of the hyper-regimented routine.

If the Navy has decided to make an internal cultural correction, I am not aware that the end state has been clearly articulated.  It does appear that the intent is to stay "ugly" forever and there is no light at the end.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2014, 01:30:31 »
Let's see if I have this straight:

Ship gets in massive crap alongside; embarrasses RCN and gets recalled to Canada. Check.

Commanding Officer, XO, Coxn disciplined? Nope.

Beer and wine no longer available at sea for entire fleet. check (that was always problematic for me as aircrew, anyway, but it is always nice to have the illusion of choice)

Alcohol now more expensive. Check. That should keep everyone onboard and under the supervision of the duty watch, instead of downtown  ::)

More mandatory briefings and training to attend. Check.

Now, after spending even more time at sea, and fewer port visits (where we all stand 1 in 3 duties anyway, regardless of the actual  threat or workload), the first night in we will now be restricted to the ship for our own protection? I am responsible for a crew and multi-million dollar helicopter, but cannot be trusted to make good decisions in port? Do I have that about right?

I am routinely dealing with aged ships and antique helicopters; substandard and over-crowded living conditions as we pack ever more people into the ships and yet, me, deciding to have a beer or two is the problem?

Maybe, just maybe, it is not me or the rest of the ship's company who is the real problem here. My experience has always been that if you treat people like children, you will reinforce childlike behaviour. Once you have a fleet full of children, your talent will walk.

This whole policy is a study in failure of command at all levels. Jesus wept.

Offline devil39

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2014, 02:12:20 »
That about says it.  They weren't around, so have no idea what they are missing.  It seems that in the late '80's and into the '90's the trend to take all the fun out of a dirty job, and make it just a dirty job happened.  I don't know the numbers or stats, but it seemed like a lot of good people were taking Releases in the late '90's into 2003 or so.  That compounded the situation of all the Retiring pers from the '60/70's.

Yup....next will come a decade of arguing with your risk adverse boss as to why your troops should be allowed into town when you are out of the country on a dry exercise...and looking for a bit of fun and adventure....

Please...let's be more like the US Army and Navy.... Clearly they are the standard to achieve!!

We used to be a mission command Army and CF....not so much any more

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2014, 08:30:41 »
Nothing we can do about it now anyways. While I don't like the policy change, I stand behind the COC on this decision and we'll see how it goes.
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2014, 09:27:48 »
Commanding Officer, XO, Coxn disciplined? Nope.

......and there is the crux of the problem right there.   The friggin' Glee club mentality just keeps making *us* more and more of a joke.....

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Offline IN ARDUA NITOR

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2014, 09:42:50 »
Sigh

jollyjacktar

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2014, 09:43:49 »
Nothing we can do about it now anyways. While I don't like the policy change, I stand behind the COC on this decision and we'll see how it goes.
When they make sense, I do too.  Not this time though. 

I expect I'll be reading how well it fails to go in the Chronicle Herald one day down the road too.  Hopefully I'm wrong, but I fear I'm not.

Offline ModlrMike

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2014, 09:46:53 »
While I applaud the decision in broad terms, I fear it will have the opposite effect of what is intended. Having seen the troops go stark raving mad on R&R in the Balkans, and in Cyprus when we came out of Afg, I'm not sure this will make it better.
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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2014, 10:19:36 »
When the Whitehorse incident first blew up we were at sea and was due to be in St.John's a few days later. Obviously everyone was concerned that any further incidents would be dealt with harshly and no one wanted to be "that ship". We went to the Jr ranks and asked them to collectively come up with some ideas to police themselves as the alternative was to restrict alcohol consumption while alongside. So what they came up with was 4 drink maximum, duty driver to bring you home no questions asked, if you're duty the night before you had to be back on board by 2am and everyone was to be on board the night before we sailed by midnight. It worked out well.
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Offline IN ARDUA NITOR

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2014, 10:33:30 »
What did the Wardroom and CPOs come up with to mitigate?

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2014, 10:44:47 »
What did the Wardroom and CPOs come up with to mitigate?

Everybody was involved with the developing the measures. Everyone on board was under the same rules and everyone agreed that it needed to be done. No one said that you couldn't get drunk, as long as it didn't bring discredit to the RCN. The buddy system was emphasized to ensure your winger got home safely and without incident.
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Offline mark-space

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2014, 11:30:17 »
I am curious what the policy is in the British Navy?

I recall the Brit Jimmies on Mount Gola sending down garbage bags full of empties while their Canadian counterparts (Bosnia 2VP 1997) were still suffering through the Army's long, dark winter of abstinence. It seemed to me that their CofC had a much more mature attitude towards the consumption of alcohol. In any event, that tour saw the start of the new alcohol policy...two beers, per-man, per-day, with a punch card to keep track. The same policy was in effect during my third tour of Afghanistan (Kabul 2004), but I believe it was subsequently eliminated...

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Offline MCG

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2014, 11:51:23 »
What was the previous policy in the RCN?  We're there daily limits or restrictions on time and/or place?

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2014, 12:23:30 »
At sea, you were limited to not more than two beer or glasses of wine. You could not consume alcohol 6 hours before a watch (12hrs for aircrew) and were never permitted to be intoxicated.

For certain operational sails (Most CJOC operations), alcohol consumption was not permitted at sea and even in port, in some cases.

Alongside, there were no limits on alcohol consumption, as long as you were not on duty, within published bar hours and did not breach the general CF provisions on drunkeness and misconduct.

So, there have always been perfectly serviceable control measures. As long as they were enforced.

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2014, 12:25:52 »
So, there have always been perfectly serviceable control measures. As long as they were enforced.

Maybe we've found the issue then...

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: RCN to introduce new Conduct Policy and new Alcohol Policy
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2014, 12:31:23 »
No crap. But, punishing everyone is easier than actually holding COs to account. Apparently.