Author Topic: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?  (Read 56200 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chief Engineer

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 740,742
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,976
Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« on: February 22, 2015, 11:39:24 »
With the Harry DeWolf Class being armed with the BAE RC 25MM, perhaps its time that the Kingston Class rids itself of its 40MM and have something similar or even the same mount and gun installed. With the Kingston Class being deployed south on drug interdiction missions more and more, perhaps the argument could be made to have a more capable weapon system. HMCS Summerside orginally trialled a RCHMG .50 cal, and proved to be a pretty capable mount. It was a gyro stabilized system with a IR camera , that mounted a heavy barrelled .50 cal. The introduction of a 25MM mount would be a great capability.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

كافر

Offline Ostrozac

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 31,530
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 708
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2015, 11:55:43 »
Is the Kingston class going to be kept in service once the AOPS rolls out?

If the answer to that question is yes, then by all means life-extend the weapons systems. But it's an important question to ask, if you want to avoid spending money upgrading a system only to then immediately scrap it.

Offline Chief Engineer

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 740,742
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,976
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2015, 12:02:24 »
Is the Kingston class going to be kept in service once the AOPS rolls out?

If the answer to that question is yes, then by all means life-extend the weapons systems. But it's an important question to ask, if you want to avoid spending money upgrading a system only to then immediately scrap it.

Thats a good question. I can see some of the older hulls being phased out as the AOPS come on line, however I can't see the entire class being retired. There are a lot of upgrades going into the ships right now and with the oldest hull being 19 years I can see them sailing for some years yet. Not to mention the political fall out of retiring ships in a ship starved navy especially with nothing wrong with them.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

كافر

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 145,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,292
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2015, 12:03:05 »
I am pretty sure that if you bought 12 25mm mounts for the MCDVs and the MCDVs were then decommissioned, those mounts would be immediately recycled into other ships.

In other words, I think it would be a good idea.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 139,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,618
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2015, 12:07:58 »
I don't think the issue is wether or not all or some of the MCDV's will be retained once the HARRY DeWOLF class enters the fleet.

IMO the issue is more one of commonality and training. The BAE 25mm being introduced to the fleet and the MCDV's 40mm Bofors are guns of the same general category and put onboard these two classes for similar purposes. It makes no sense then to have to  train two  different groups of gunners, operators, maintainers, etc. or to keep two different stocks of ammunition and parts. Hence, it would make sense at this time to upgrade the MCDV's with the BAE guns and get that part of the initial cadre training out of the way for the day the HARRY DeWOLF class enters service.

Besides, the 40mm Bofors are WWII era already, they served on the TRIBAL class and other WWII Destroyers, then on the carriers. The ones onboard the MCDV's are mostly from BONAVENTURE's old stocks. I am sure that the Navy would simply put them in storage for "the next time they are needed…"

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 145,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,292
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2015, 12:15:15 »
I am actually kind of partial to the 40mm...but I do recognize that time marches on.

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 217,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,794
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 12:51:00 »
In the seventies and into the eighties they were also used to defend the two Canadian airfields in Germany. In a fit of misguided enthusiasm the air defence wing at the artillery school let me blast a few rounds downrange from the firing point in Shilo.

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 170,725
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,043
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2015, 00:05:13 »
I'm not sure who else uses them, but wouldn't getting ammunition become more and more of an issue?

I too am partial to the 40mm, but when the museum pieces start looking newer than the ones mounted on the ships....
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Sheep Dog AT

  • The Fly in Someone's Ointment - Giggity
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 58,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,219
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2015, 01:14:18 »
On my QL3 course one of the questions for naval ammo was "what is the 40mm used for"

I forgot so answered "to keep the Pirates honest".   ;D
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
Oh Giggity Well...........Giggity

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 145,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,292
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2015, 08:45:58 »
That answer is actually correct...

Offline Sheep Dog AT

  • The Fly in Someone's Ointment - Giggity
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 58,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,219
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2015, 09:25:12 »
 ;D
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
Oh Giggity Well...........Giggity

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,645
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,331
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2015, 11:15:27 »
They are older than that, came from the Bonaventure as i recall. I would consider it a wise investment, it will take some time to bring the new ships online and replace all of these vessels, it would give us more capability now and as mentioned, it would reduce the training load when the new ships come on line.

Offline sledge

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 26,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 283
  • Sailor
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2015, 20:41:14 »
The Bonnie never carried 40mm Bofors. She had saluting guns and twin 3 inch 50's.  The 40mm would have come from older destroyers and frigates.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2015, 21:06:19 »
The Bonnie never carried 40mm Bofors. She had saluting guns and twin 3 inch 50's.  The 40mm would have come from older destroyers and frigates.
\

According to many references including these, Bonnie did carry 8 x 40mm guns.

Quote
[/BONAVENTURE Statistical Data
•Pendant: 22
•Type: Light Fleet Carrier
•Class: Majestic
•Displacement: 16,000 tonnes
•Length: 704 ft
•Width: 80 ft
•Draught: 25 ft
•Speed: 24 kts
•Compliment: 1300 Officers and Crew
•Arms: 8 - 3" (4xII), 8 - 40mm
•Builder: Harland and Wolff Ltd., Belfast, Ireland
•Keel Laid: 27-Nov-43
•Date Launched: 27-Feb-45
•Date Commissioned: 17-Jan-57
•Paid off: 07-Jan-70

http://readyayeready.com/ships/shipview.php?id=1041
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Bonaventure_(CVL_22)

or, if you like... some photos

Bofors 40mm Anti-Aircraft Gun
Canadian warships sent to the Persian Gulf received anti-aircraft guns on mountings like these to improve their defences.

A gunner (centre left) aims and fires the weapon, while a loader (centre right) loads clips of ammunition from racks (right) into the gun (left). Seen here on a power-driven "Boffin" mounting, the 40mm Bofors anti-aircraft gun first saw extensive use during the Second World War, and remained widely used afterwards. HMCS Protecteur, the supply ship deployed to the Gulf in August 1990, received two such weapons, originally from the aircraft carrier HMCS Bonaventure which had been decommissioned some 20 years earlier.

VR997.190.003
CFB Esquimalt Naval & Military Museum

http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions/navy/objects_photos_search_bd-e.aspx
quote]

Offline sledge

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 26,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 283
  • Sailor
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2015, 21:11:57 »
Ohhh Wikipedia  great source.  ::)  I have the actual Bonnie book at home 4 x twin 3"50 until mid 60's when two where removed.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2015, 21:23:53 »
Oh, sorry that the Canadian War Museum or the CFB Esquimault Naval Museum are not good enough as a source for you.   ::)

Offline sledge

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 26,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 283
  • Sailor
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2015, 21:27:17 »
How about taking a look at flight deck pictures. No 40mm except the saulting guns aft.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2015, 21:33:01 »
Of course, of course.  Those museums are totally wrong and don't know what they are talking about.  Silly me...

Offline sledge

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 26,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 283
  • Sailor
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2015, 21:38:13 »
Or you could actually go check.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 139,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,618
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2015, 21:41:05 »
Actually, It appears that sledge is right.

It was Magnificent that carried 17 single boors and four double boors 40mm guns for AA protection.

Bonnie apparently only had the four twin 3"50 that were radar directed for its AA.

Got that from the Bonaventure's book of pictures on Flikr at the following ref. Look mid way down pathe page at the deck comparison between the two ladies.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dodgedeora/sets/72157624028100452/page2/

Offline cupper

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 91,015
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,730
  • Nuke 'em 'til they glow, then wait until dark.
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2015, 22:00:35 »
The confusion seems to be coming from various sources as to what was installed originally when construction was completed. Some sources claim that the twin 40's were never installed. Others say that they were installed during construction, and removed shortly after delivery.

Originally part of the Majestic Class of light carriers, Bonnie would have had the same armaments as Magnificent. However her construction was put on hold (She was originally was (or to be) named HMS Powerful. When it was decided that Magnificent would be retired and replaced by the Bonnie, construction resumed with a modernized design put in place.

As an additional side note, I remember being on the Bonnie when I was a wee lad just before her retirement. If memory serves correct, my father was briefly posted to her after the Kootenay explosion.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 22:10:20 by cupper »
It's hard to win an argument against a smart person, it's damned near impossible against a stupid person.

There is no God, and life is just a myth.

"He who drinks, sleeps. He who sleeps, does not sin. He who does not sin, is holy. Therefore he who drinks, is holy."

Let's Go CAPS!

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2015, 22:05:53 »
Actually, It appears that sledge is right.

It was Magnificent that carried 17 single boors and four double boors 40mm guns for AA protection.

Bonnie apparently only had the four twin 3"50 that were radar directed for its AA.

Got that from the Bonaventure's book of pictures on Flikr at the following ref. Look mid way down pathe page at the deck comparison between the two ladies.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dodgedeora/sets/72157624028100452/page2/

Looking at your flickr above, are these not Bofors?  https://www.flickr.com/photos/dodgedeora/4593744582/in/set-72157624028100452

Offline sledge

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 26,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 283
  • Sailor
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2015, 22:08:30 »
No those are 3" 50's.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2015, 22:13:21 »
Then, I will apologise.  Eat three helpings of crow and STFU.   :salute:

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 139,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,618
Re: Kingston Class 40MM replacement?
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2015, 22:17:05 »
Don't be too hard on yourself JJ. You may note from my first post on the subject that I too mentioned Bonnie as a source of bofors 40 mm. I can tell you that the lore around the Navy has always been that we were fighting with Bonnie's old guns, not maggies'. So there is a definite long standing urban legend around those guns in any event.