Author Topic: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling  (Read 75638 times)

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #125 on: June 17, 2016, 19:09:08 »
Doing crap jobs in Poland sure as heck sounds better than crap jobs in Petawawa, right? Going somewhere to stand around isn't a deployment. You want to go somewhere, put a NOI in for CANSOF. Seems like those dudes, Auroras and the RCN in the Med are the only ones in the game right now, doing work against bad guys. Being able to check off "places visited" on Facebook isn't a reason to join every task that isn't combat.

Offline Teager

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #126 on: June 17, 2016, 20:19:34 »
Altair I will never forget when I first got to Afghanistan. A Cpl from the PPCLI that was on the out going tour told me he hopes I have a super boring tour and don't have to leave base. Unfortunately that didn't happen and I now understand why he said that.

So for me as bored as you are right now I'm glad your not in some crap hole of a country with risk to you and your buddies. Remember things could always be worse. If you and others are put in harms way let it be necessary or as PuckChaser mentioned go CANSOF.

Offline Altair

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #127 on: June 17, 2016, 23:06:27 »
Troops don't join the military so you can clean tents, clean rifles, and not going anywhere or do anything.

A foreign posting is what people join for.  Peacekeeping.  Warfighting.  Rapid Reaction.  Disaster Relief.  I don't think it really matters all that much - being able to actually DO your job is what keeps people in, not training in some remote location on the same lessons for the 100th time.
This. So much this.
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Offline CBH99

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #128 on: June 18, 2016, 02:55:23 »
Doing crap jobs in Poland actually sounds way cooler than doing crap jobs in Petawawa!

At least if your screwing the dog in Poland, you can get some travel & cultural experiences in.  As for training, it's always beneficial to train with allies and become familiar with each other's concerns, tactics, strategies, equipment, etc.

I do agree with Teager.  If your going to be put into a potently dangerous situation, it better be worth it.  That being said, there are plenty of interesting things that the troops can do that are a) interesting enough to keep them interested in a military career, b) enhance the lives of people around the world, and c) aren't putting your lives on the line the same way Afghanistan did.

Look at how busy recruiting was during 2001-2011 with Afghanistan and compare it to today.  People join the military to do unique things, travel, and be busy helping to make the world a better place (regardless of what form that may take.)

Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #129 on: June 18, 2016, 10:25:14 »
Travel and experiences until some idiot gets drunk and arrested and ruins it for everyone.

People joined during the Afghan war because it was a war, and they wanted to do their job for real, instead of pretending all the time.

Do I want to deploy again? Absolutely. Do I want to deploy to NATO's 6 month long version of MAPLE RESOLVE? Extremely less keen.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #130 on: June 18, 2016, 10:31:04 »
Travel and experiences until some idiot gets drunk and arrested and ruins it for everyone.

People joined during the Afghan war because it was a war, and they wanted to do their job for real, instead of pretending all the time.

Do I want to deploy again? Absolutely. Do I want to deploy to NATO's 6 month long version of MAPLE RESOLVE? Extremely less keen.

Agreed. 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline QV

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #131 on: June 18, 2016, 11:25:52 »
Travel and experiences until some idiot gets drunk and arrested and ruins it for everyone.

People joined during the Afghan war because it was a war, and they wanted to do their job for real, instead of pretending all the time.

Do I want to deploy again? Absolutely. Do I want to deploy to NATO's 9-12 month long version of MAPLE RESOLVE? Extremely less keen.

Ftfy

Offline Altair

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #132 on: June 18, 2016, 16:28:54 »
Travel and experiences until some idiot gets drunk and arrested and ruins it for everyone.

People joined during the Afghan war because it was a war, and they wanted to do their job for real, instead of pretending all the time.

Do I want to deploy again? Absolutely. Do I want to deploy to NATO's 6 month long version of MAPLE RESOLVE? Extremely less keen.
way to dampen it...

Almost makes a peacekeeping mission sound more appealing
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #133 on: June 18, 2016, 17:23:14 »
way to dampen it...

Almost makes a peacekeeping mission sound more appealing
Big fan of going someplace and watching genocide and the ROE prevents anyone stopping it. Or getting shot at and having to ask for ID before returning fire...

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #134 on: June 18, 2016, 18:08:56 »
Ah, the innocence of youth.  It would be pleasing to be filled with the fire of not knowing what is out there...until that gets beaten out of you.

Offline Altair

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #135 on: June 18, 2016, 18:39:59 »
Big fan of going someplace and watching genocide and the ROE prevents anyone stopping it. Or getting shot at and having to ask for ID before returning fire...
Doesn't look like much genocide in French west Africa,  more like securing the region against Islamic militants.

No idea what the ROEs are but the french don't look like they are asking for I'd before firing back.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #136 on: June 18, 2016, 18:56:42 »
Fighting ISIL in Africa is not Peacekeeping in the sense Trudeau wants. He wants blue berets and no weapons. Nice, "safe" missions that are big on photo ops, but short on any element of risk or effectiveness. There's a reason third world countries are the peacekeeping leaders, free rations and UN pay.

Offline Altair

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #137 on: June 18, 2016, 19:14:31 »
Fighting ISIL in Africa is not Peacekeeping in the sense Trudeau wants. He wants blue berets and no weapons. Nice, "safe" missions that are big on photo ops, but short on any element of risk or effectiveness. There's a reason third world countries are the peacekeeping leaders, free rations and UN pay.
If MILEME09 cbc article is to be believes then trudeau is looking french west Africa.

There a 4 missions currently in westeen africa.

10320 in Mali.

7511 in the ivory coast.

5869 in liberia.

216 in western Sahara.

http://www.cfr.org/peacekeeping/peace-operations-africa/p9333

Which of these would be considered french west Africa? I know which one I would bet on, but that could just be me.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #138 on: June 18, 2016, 19:19:37 »
From your link:

Quote
How effective are peacekeeping operations?

Peacekeeping missions have had mixed results in Africa. Those that took place nearly a decade ago in West Africa in cooperation with ECOWAS—in Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Ivory Coast—are widely hailed as successes, whereas current missions to CAR, DRC, Mali, South Sudan, and Darfur, have not improved stability. “These missions have failed largely because they were deployed in a context of ongoing war where the belligerents themselves did not want to stop fighting or preying on civilians,” says Williams. He says that these missions have nonetheless managed to protect many civilians and reduced some of the worst consequences of civil war.

Peacekeepers have come under fire for failing to intervene at critical moments: The UN’s 2014 internal investigation found that peacekeepers only responded to one in five cases in which civilians were threatened and that they failed to use force in the ten deadliest attacks on civilians between 2010 and 2013. A 2014 Human Rights Watch report claims that UN peacekeepers and Congolese forces failed to prevent an attack in the DRC that left at least thirty civilians dead. In other cases, peacekeeping forces have been accused of commiting human rights abuses: AU peacekeepers were implicated in the disappearances of eleven people in CAR in 2014, and French peacekeepers are under investigation for sexual assault there.

If we want to do nothing, we go to Ivory Coast or Liberia. If we want to be targetted by ISIL, we go to Mali. With our limited troops, we're not going to change the direction of these doomed missions, and AU definitely does not want white Western peacekeepers there. Sub-saharan Africa is a quagmire even worse than Iraq/Afghanistan, and I really hope we steer clear of that place.

Offline Altair

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #139 on: June 18, 2016, 19:25:27 »
From your link:

If we want to do nothing, we go to Ivory Coast or Liberia. If we want to be targetted by ISIL, we go to Mali. With our limited troops, we're not going to change the direction of these doomed missions, and AU definitely does not want white Western peacekeepers there. Sub-saharan Africa is a quagmire even worse than Iraq/Afghanistan, and I really hope we steer clear of that place.
Would you rather polish maple resolve for 6-12 months at a time for years to come?
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #140 on: June 18, 2016, 19:38:13 »
Would you rather polish maple resolve for 6-12 months at a time for years to come?

Then watch genocide and human suffering and be unable to help because the UN castrates its forces when deployed? My long-term mental health begs me to say yes, I've seen a few too many friends still suffering from Somalia and Rwanda.

Offline Altair

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #141 on: June 18, 2016, 19:48:53 »
Then watch genocide and human suffering and be unable to help because the UN castrates its forces when deployed? My long-term mental health begs me to say yes, I've seen a few too many friends still suffering from Somalia and Rwanda.
Don't know of any genocide in Mali.
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #142 on: June 18, 2016, 20:14:13 »
Don't know of any genocide in Mali.

Quote
1 February 2013 – A senior United Nations official today warned of the risk of reprisal attacks against Tuareg and Arab civilians in various regions of northern Mali and urged the country’s military to protect all citizens regardless of their ethnic affiliation.

“While the liberation of towns once under the control of the rebel and extremist groups has brought hope to the populations of northern Mali, I am deeply concerned at the risk of reprisal attacks against ethnic Tuareg and Arab civilians,” the UN Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide, Adama Dieng, said in a statement.

Fighting between Government forces and Tuareg rebels broke out in northern Mali last January, after which radical Islamists seized control of the area. The conflict uprooted thousands of people and prompted the Malian Government to request military assistance from France to stop the progression of extremist groups.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=44058
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Altair

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #143 on: June 18, 2016, 20:22:37 »
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=44058
Yeah, and nothing since operation Serval.

So I'll rephrase,  I don't know of any current genocide in mali.
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Online Good2Golf

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #144 on: June 19, 2016, 09:11:16 »
Where is 427 Sqn and 450 Sqn located?   Petawawa?   

I'll suggest VOT to AES Op.  There are no positions for AES Ops in either of those crap holes.

But Pet is 25 minutes away from the Pembroke Mall!  ;D

Offline Dimsum

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #145 on: June 19, 2016, 14:45:44 »
Yeah, and nothing since operation Serval.

So I'll rephrase,  I don't know of any current genocide in mali.

Just because the world media has moved on doesn't mean it's not still happening.  How much do you hear about Somalia, DRC, and all those ongoing conflicts these days?
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Altair

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #146 on: June 19, 2016, 14:59:03 »
Just because the world media has moved on doesn't mean it's not still happening.  How much do you hear about Somalia, DRC, and all those ongoing conflicts these days?
Congo I hear about on occasion. Somalia not so much. Usually even if major media has moved on the UN will still make a point to point it out. That hasn't happened at all recently.

On a whole though, i think more genocide is happening in isil held areas than in french west Africa.

Again, just in case people think I want UN peacekeeping over being part of a NATO tripwire force, I don't care which one trudeau decides on, just send me somewhere.
Someday I'll care about milpoints.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #147 on: June 19, 2016, 15:09:44 »
Again, just in case people think I want UN peacekeeping over being part of a NATO tripwire force, I don't care which one trudeau decides on, just send me somewhere.

I wasn't being snarky when I suggested VOT to aircrew (esp AESOP).  If your trade isn't working out for you, it is definitely an option and AESOPs definitely travel to all sorts of places.  I'm sure any AESOP on here or in person will back me up on that..
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #148 on: June 19, 2016, 15:58:08 »
Again, just in case people think I want UN peacekeeping over being part of a NATO tripwire force, I don't care which one trudeau decides on, just send me somewhere.

If your profile is right and you're a Signaller: If something sustained happens, you'll have more deployments than you know what to do with. Look at the guys around HQ&Sigs with 4 rotation bars.

Offline Baden Guy

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Re: NATO response to Russian sabre rattling
« Reply #149 on: June 19, 2016, 16:24:09 »
I wasn't being snarky when I suggested VOT to aircrew (esp AESOP).  If your trade isn't working out for you, it is definitely an option and AESOPs definitely travel to all sorts of places.  I'm sure any AESOP on here or in person will back me up on that..

One of the better trades in the military "IMHO." Great place for a smart soldier looking to get ahead:
Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator