Author Topic: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault  (Read 42965 times)

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Offline mariomike

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2015, 10:17:42 »
Just what kind of work might they do. 

"It was not clear last night how they will keep themselves occupied thousands of miles from their shipmates and a representative from the British High Commission who was in court refused to elaborate."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3047155/Four-Royal-Navy-sailors-accused-gang-raping-woman-Canada-ice-hockey-tournament-arrive-court-granted-bail.html

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2015, 14:02:40 »
The thread has been cleaned of posts advocating adverse administrative punishments for those who are awaiting their day in court.

Any member wishing to continue along that line will find themselves jammed into the Warning System at a level somewhere above initial entry.

This warning will not be repeated.

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2015, 23:29:14 »
Yet, in another thread, you suggest removing collateral damage so civilians can be killed in bombing runs.

 ::)

My opinion, which I have a right to, stands.  Just like you are entitled to your thoughts on killing innocent civilians, which no one was morally outraged at.  I guess its okay to say we should bomb civilians, but suggesting 4 foreign servicemen accused of gang raping a young Canadian woman scrub pots - well, thats just unacceptable!!

If your going to pull your cyber-sheriff badge out, fine.  But IMO, you have to walk the walk.  Some of us were talking about scrubbing pots and picking up brass.   Not blowing up innocent people.

Double standards really piss me off.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2015, 07:12:07 »
Yet, in another thread, you suggest removing collateral damage so civilians can be killed in bombing runs.

 ::)

My opinion, which I have a right to, stands.  Just like you are entitled to your thoughts on killing innocent civilians, which no one was morally outraged at.  I guess its okay to say we should bomb civilians, but suggesting 4 foreign servicemen accused of gang raping a young Canadian woman scrub pots - well, thats just unacceptable!!

If your going to pull your cyber-sheriff badge out, fine.  But IMO, you have to walk the walk.  Some of us were talking about scrubbing pots and picking up brass.   Not blowing up innocent people.

Double standards really piss me off.
I'm going to defend Recceguy here because I am certain he would personally love to see a guy charged with sexual assault scrubbing pots as much as you or I would; however, these men are innocent until proven guilty. 

With that being said, we need to temper our commentary until the court renders a verdict, otherwise we open up the site owner, Mr Bobbitt, to the potential for legal action due to defamation, slander, etc... Against him.

Recceguy is just trying to protect the site owner. 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 08:12:43 by RoyalDrew »

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2015, 09:29:31 »
I think the intent of some of the questions posed is to ascertain if these four sailors are going to be gainfully employed while in Halifax.
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Offline NeverDismount

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2015, 16:12:03 »
I did not phrase my previous comment about scrubbing pots or clearing brass properly at all, and wasn't trying to insinuate that they should not have their day in court; more to the point of wondering if they were going to be employed them in a job that would not impact anyone else or keep them out of the way and eye of RCN members.

I think the intent of some of the questions posed is to ascertain if these four sailors are going to be gainfully employed while in Halifax.

To Mr Seggie's point, I find myself wondering what exactly they could find themselves employed doing. It seems to me that it would be a stretch to suggest that they would be employed on ship or employed in a specific position of some importance. They won't be employed long, whether they are found innocent and returned to the UK or found guilty and sentenced to a prison term.  Would they be employed like some bases/schools employ PAT Pl members, doing a range of lower level tasks? Or would the Chain of Command take the opportunity to reinforce manning short falls in jobs they are qualified for/have done previously?

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2015, 16:24:05 »
Yet, in another thread, you suggest removing collateral damage so civilians can be killed in bombing runs.

 ::)

Double standards really piss me off.

Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline captloadie

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2015, 18:04:08 »
At the end of the day, it isn't the CAF's or the Canadian public's concern what is done with these four individuals. The RN is responsible for paying them, housing them, and employing them. I am surprised that the British government has not requested that the condition to remain in Nova Scotia be lifted and send them to the nearest embassy/consulate office within Canada to sit and wait their court date.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2015, 20:30:15 »
At the end of the day, it isn't the CAF's or the Canadian public's concern what is done with these four individuals.

Wait, what?? They allegedly raped a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil, and that isnt the Canadian publics concern?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2015, 20:43:56 »
Wait, what?? They allegedly raped a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil, and that isnt the Canadian publics concern?

It isn't the CAF nor the Canadian public's concern how they will be employed.  They are out on Bail and required to remain in Canada to await their Trial dates.  Are you one of those people who has to be constantly in the Twitterverse and know when these guys go to the toilet, what they had for lunch, etc.?  It is NONE of your concern.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2015, 06:47:24 »
I am pretty sur as adults, we can decide for ourselves to what we are or are not concerned about.   ::)

Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2015, 07:55:35 »
I am pretty sur as adults, we can decide for ourselves to what we are or are not concerned about.   ::)

Well, EitS, I am not concerned, like you may be, as to what their ablutions are, and when.  The facts are there as to their having gained Bail and that they must remain in Canada to await Trial.  What rights do any citizen have to know the intimate day to day activities of any other person?  If you are the type who is so vain as to be constantly on twitter and post every mundane action you make in a day; well fine for you devolving you lax personal security concerns.  There is no need for anyone to know, nor be concerned, what these persons daily lives will now entail. 

Are you a "Peeping Tom" ready for the possibility of a charge of "Harassment" or even "interference in a criminal case"?
 
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Offline Brihard

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2015, 10:15:05 »
For those who might be curious, typically in something liek this bail conditions will include not to have contact in any way direct or indirect with the victim; remain in the jurisdiction presiding over the charges (i.e., Nova Scotia), attend court as required, report to a bail supervisor and attend as required, and there is likely a curfew as well. If alcohol was a factor (which I would suspect it was) there will typically be an abstain from alcohol condition as well.

The intent of someone being released on bail is to minimize the unnecessary imprisonment of accused suspects if it is not necessary in order to ensure their attendance in court or to protect the victim/society from further offending. There is often a lot of ambiguity and question marks in a sexual assault case, so I'm not particularly surprised to see them on bail given the considerable difficulty they would face in skipping out on their court dates.

As for how they're occupying their time until then? I really neither know nor care, but there's nothing criminal about people wanting to know, being curious, or speculating. Justice must not only be done, but also be seen to be done, and it's not unreasonable for people to be concerned about how accused suspects are monitored and controlled. If I was living/working on base out there I'd definitely be a tad bit more interested to know.

I feel bad for any of their royal navy comrades working out of Halifax these days. That's a really ugly disgrace to have to be associated with. While they are of course innocent until proven guilty, we all know criminal charges aren't laid on a whim, and regardless of the outcome in court these four are always going to wear this.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2015, 16:20:44 »
At the end of the day, it isn't the CAF's or the Canadian public's concern what is done with these four individuals. The RN is responsible for paying them, housing them, and employing them. I am surprised that the British government has not requested that the condition to remain in Nova Scotia be lifted and send them to the nearest embassy/consulate office within Canada to sit and wait their court date.

While it may be of no concern to the CF generally what is done with these individuals awaiting trial (other than any agreement with the RN as to accommodation and employment, if any), what the greater unwashed Canadian public (collectively or individually) decides to make its concern if only limited by its interest, outrage or attention span.

I am not surprised that British authorities did not seek any change as to location post-bail.  Other than the difficulty of finding suitable employment at (as you suggested) one of the four British diplomatic or consular missions (Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, Calgary), though there was media speculation pre-bail hearing about sending them to Suffield, it seems to be RN policy not to make any undertaking as to conditions of bail for its members.  As well, should they be "ordered by naval authorities" to a place other than where they were arrested and would normally be required to remain, then that may be considered placing them in a temporary duty status with attendant travel and accommodation benefits.

Fortunately during my time in, I never had to be involved in any civil criminal proceedings of soldiers at a location other than where they were stationed.  Even overseas (Germany), when soldiers (in my units anyway) transgressed on the economy, they still lived locally to the court's jurisdiction so it was not as administratively difficult a situation as this.  What would the current CF policy be if a similar situation involving Canadian soldiers/sailors/airmen occurred and they were not able to return to their normal place of duty and there was no Canadian Forces establishment in the locale to which they were restricted?  Would they be required to be on leave (annual, LWOP or other) to account for their absence from their normal place of duty?  I sort of remember such being discussed years decades ago (maybe a hypothetical discussion at Staff School?).  Perhaps these four British ratings find themselves in a similar status, at least in the short term until their next scheduled court date - about a month away.  I haven't found any British regulations or instructions that specifically deal with that but I did find the RN's Naval Personnel Management publication that does mention civilian court proceedings.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/~/media/royal%20navy%.20responsive/documents/reference%20library/br%203/Br3book/ch20.pdf
Quote
BR 3
PART 5

SECTION 17 - CIVIL OFFENCES

20115. Service Policy and Employment

a. The Naval Service, both as an employer and a public body, must take account of
pending and completed civil offences in order to regulate the workplace, protect the
legitimate interests of the accused and his or her colleagues, to maintain the discipline
and ethos of the Service, to assist the Court and the criminal justice system, and
ensure that public confidence is maintained.

b. QRRN Ch 39 should be consulted together with this section.
. . . .

SECTION 18 - DIVISIONAL ATTENDANCE AT COURTS

20126. Guidance for attending officers

a. This guidance should be read in conjunction with QRRN Art 3903.

b. If a member of the Navl Service is to appear in the Crown or Magistrate’s Court,
an officer (usually the Divisional Officer/Troop Commander (DO)) should normally
attend. Divisional representation from another ship or establishment better placed
than the accused’s own may be arranged. For minor offences dealt with in the
Magistrates Courts it may not be necessary for the divisional staff to attend. Guidance
may be sought from the Legal Advisor.

c. Prior to attending court DOs should receive a brief from the Command Advisor,
Adjutant or G1 Advisor on the purpose of their attendance, the information they may
give the court, and the information they must obtain from the court. They should wear
smart plain clothes in court.
(found this interesting as we usually had to wear uniform as attending officer)
. . . . .

d. Attending Officers should be ready to assist the court in the following areas:
. . . . .
(5) Bail. If the court has to decide between remanding the individual in bail or in
custody, the individual should be encouraged, through his or her legal advisor, to
ask for bail. Courts have a variety of possible bail conditions, and may assume,
incorrectly, that the Service can supervise such conditions.
The Service can
usually provide the individual with Single Living Accommodation in a suitable
area, but no undertaking can be given to the court that the Service will supervise
bail conditions. If the court appearance is abroad there is a strong Service interest
in the individual being granted bail. Exceptionally a sum of money can be
provided from public funds as a surety (QRRN J.5813 and JSP 838 The Armed
Forces Criminal Legal Aid Scheme).
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2015, 18:25:56 »
With all the complaints and protests against Bill C-51, it is interesting to see all the people concerned with what these four may be doing now that they have Bail.  Kinda hypocritical, don't you think?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2015, 20:49:57 »
For those who might be curious, typically in something liek this bail conditions will include not to have contact in any way direct or indirect with the victim; remain in the jurisdiction presiding over the charges (i.e., Nova Scotia), attend court as required, report to a bail supervisor and attend as required, and there is likely a curfew as well. If alcohol was a factor (which I would suspect it was) there will typically be an abstain from alcohol condition as well.

The intent of someone being released on bail is to minimize the unnecessary imprisonment of accused suspects if it is not necessary in order to ensure their attendance in court or to protect the victim/society from further offending. There is often a lot of ambiguity and question marks in a sexual assault case, so I'm not particularly surprised to see them on bail given the considerable difficulty they would face in skipping out on their court dates.

As for how they're occupying their time until then? I really neither know nor care, but there's nothing criminal about people wanting to know, being curious, or speculating. Justice must not only be done, but also be seen to be done, and it's not unreasonable for people to be concerned about how accused suspects are monitored and controlled. If I was living/working on base out there I'd definitely be a tad bit more interested to know.

I feel bad for any of their royal navy comrades working out of Halifax these days. That's a really ugly disgrace to have to be associated with. While they are of course innocent until proven guilty, we all know criminal charges aren't laid on a whim, and regardless of the outcome in court these four are always going to wear this.

Thanks for this post.  I have a particularly strong despise for this type of crime, knowing people who have been its victim.  I am glad too see that alcohol is likely part of their bail conditions.

George, I could retort but there's no value in it.  I kind of feel embarrassed for you after reading that post.  Seriously.  But, for the record, I don't even have a twitter account.  I also have no interest in tit-for-tat, so maybe we can just agree to disagree on this thread.

I think many people in Halifax would be concerned about who is at large in their community and under what conditions.  However, despite I am no longer posted there, I still have friends and family there. Military and civilian.  FWIW I was equally appalled at the Dental Student incident that went on.  I also get ramped up over cases where people hurt babies, kids, old people and animals; cases where people prey on the weak and defenceless basically.  They are cowards and lowr life forms inmy book.

I am not so concerned about their every step and move, but the terms of their bail IAW thw news seemed rather lacking IMO.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 21:24:16 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Loachman

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2015, 21:14:30 »
With all the complaints and protests against Bill C-51, it is interesting to see all the people concerned with what these four may be doing now that they have Bail.  Kinda hypocritical, don't you think?

I fail to see any possible link to people's concerns about Bill C-51 and their interest in some of the details of this case. It appears to be basic natural curiosity. Is there a limit to the number of things that people can wonder about, and, if so, what is that limit?

It makes a change from Kardashian kapers and such, nein?

Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2015, 23:30:06 »
I fail to see any possible link to people's concerns about Bill C-51 and their interest in some of the details of this case. It appears to be basic natural curiosity. Is there a limit to the number of things that people can wonder about, and, if so, what is that limit?

It makes a change from Kardashian kapers and such, nein?

I agree... why SHOULDN'T the Canadian population be interested in 4 foreigners coming to a Canadian city and being charged with gang rape of a Canadian? If innocent than they should be equally absolved, but if guilty than they should be given the full extent of punishment offered and the RN should be forced to take better care of their sailors in port. I remember, back in '99, being at the University of King's College as a frosh and having the RA's come in and brief that we should avoid downtown because the USS George Washington was coming into port and the US sailors would be downtown. Perhaps similar warnings could be given with the Brit ships as well, with this case being used as an example (if guilty of course).

For the things Canadians worry about, foreigners (and lets not mince hairs, the RN sailors are foreigners) being accused of rape in Canada is a pretty solid thing to be worried about instead of say, the Jets going out in 4 straight to the Ducks....

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2015, 14:27:00 »
And they're off to Alberta.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/u-k-sailors-charged-with-sex-assault-to-be-transferred-to-alberta-1.2354301
Quote
U.K. sailors charged with sex assault to be transferred to Alberta

 The Canadian Press
 Published Friday, May 1, 2015 1:50PM EDT 
 Last Updated Friday, May 1, 2015 2:14PM EDT 


HALIFAX -- Four British sailors charged with sexual assault causing bodily harm are being transferred from a Halifax military base to a military base in Alberta.

Simon Radford, Joshua Finbow, Craig Stoner and Darren Smalley were granted bail on April 20 on conditions that they reside at Canadian Forces Base Stadacona, pay a $3,000 cash surety, not contact the alleged victim and return to court May 27.

The provincial court granted a change in bail conditions Friday, allowing them to move to CFB Suffield, where there is a British army training unit.

Rear Admiral John Newton, the commander of Maritime Forces Atlantic, asked the men to leave CFB Stadacona by 6 p.m., Crown attorney Scott Morrison said outside court.

"We received word from the Canadian Forces that as of 6 p.m. tonight they would no longer be permitted to reside at CFB Stadacona," Morrison said.

When they were arrested April 16 in Nova Scotia, the men were in the province to participate in a hockey tournament with local Armed Forces personnel.

The Crown alleges they participated in a "group sexual assault" on April 10 in a barracks at CFB Shearwater, another military base in Halifax.

Maj. Yves Desbiens, a spokesman for the Canadian Forces Military Police Group, said at the time that the complainant is a civilian
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 14:30:17 by Blackadder1916 »
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2015, 15:21:42 »
That makes sense.  Send them to Suffield under the British military's administration and the RMPs.
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Offline cupper

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2015, 17:15:23 »
That makes sense.  Send them to Suffield under the British military's administration and the RMPs.

I agree, but it is interesting timing in light of the release of the report on sexual assault and harassment yesterday.
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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2015, 20:04:45 »
I would hate to be in their shoes when the RMP get their hands on them.  I remember seeing soldiers who had the need to speak to them on the telephone turning pale in the face at whatever was being said to them from Suffield.  And what these squaddies were in trouble for was in our eyes very minor indeed, especially when set against these accusations.

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2015, 19:11:39 »
I am sure they will be tasked to Range Control under the watchful eye of a RMP to carry out many mundane tasks away from any distractions. They are going to get a very close look at army life.

Offline MCG

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2015, 23:51:30 »
Some fairly detailed narrative on two competing stories of what happened that night are coming out in court documents.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/british-sailors-accused-in-halifax-gang-rape-photographed-assault-court-documents-1.3137650


Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: 4 RN Sailors Charged with Gang Sexual Assault
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2015, 14:36:34 »
Seems like these guys are growing weary of Suffield.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1304475-halifax-judge-hearing-british-sailors%E2%80%99-request-to-go-home
Quote
Halifax judge hearing British sailors’ request to go home
 
STEVE BRUCE COURT REPORTER
Published August 11, 2015 - 1:15pm

Three of four British sailors accused of sexually assaulting a civilian woman at a Nova Scotia base in April are in a Halifax courtroom today in an attempt to get their bail conditions varied.

Craig Stoner, 25; Simon Radford, 31; and Joshua Finbow, 23, want a Nova Scotia Supreme Court judge to allow them to return home to the United Kingdom while they await a preliminary inquiry next spring.

The Crown is opposing the application.

Four members of the British Royal Navy’s hockey team are charged with sexual assault causing bodily harm and participating in a group sexual assault.

The other accused is Darren Smalley, 35. He is not part of today’s application.

The sexual assault allegedly happened in the early morning hours of April 10 during a party in a barracks at 12 Wing Shearwater, where the team was staying while playing games against local military personnel.

The identity of the complainant, who is in her 20s, is protected by a publication ban.

The four Brits were arrested by the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service on April 16 and were released April 20 after posting cash bail of $3,000 each. They’re living at CFB Suffield in Alberta, where the British army has a training unit.

In June, the men elected to be tried by a Supreme Court judge and jury. A preliminary inquiry will be held in April in Dartmouth provincial court.

A preliminary inquiry determines if there is sufficient evidence for a matter to proceed to trial. It also gives the defence an opportunity to assess the Crown’s witnesses.

Today’s application is being heard by Justice Josh Arnold, who imposed a standard publication ban on the evidence.

The defence called three people to testify this morning and might put one more person on the stand this afternoon. The case would then proceed to arguments, as the Crown does not plan to call any witnesses.

Outside court, prosecutor Scott Morrison explained why the Crown doesn’t want the men to be permitted to leave Canada.

“We feel we’ve crafted a plan that grants them a substantial amount of freedom while keeping them here in Canada,” Morrison said. “To date, we haven’t heard anything that gives us assurance that they will return to attend for their trial.

“One of the concerns we had is that the correspondence we have from the British navy is that they reserve the right to deploy these men. If these men are deployed, that could create issues with respect to extradition.

“At this point, the plan is a little bit vague, and it’s worrisome in terms of extradition options.”

The defence lawyers are Luke Craggs for Stoner, Geoff Newton for Radford and Mark Knox for Finbow.

Lawyer Ian Hutchison, who represents Smalley, was in the gallery to observe some of this morning’s testimony.

Eric Taylor is also appearing for the Crown. He conducted the cross-examinations this morning.


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