Author Topic: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)  (Read 912790 times)

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2250 on: February 19, 2020, 16:16:30 »
RCN's first JSS now supposed to be delivered 2023 (good luck) and the two will cost $1.7 billion (!!!) each:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/joint-support-ship.html

Now Damen is building similar ship in Netherlands for their navy; contract just signed, delivery planned in just over four years, cost just some $540 million. Go flippin' shipbuilding figure:

Quote
Damen Inks Contract for Royal Netherlands Navy new Combat Support Ship
The contract for the construction of the Royal Netherlands Navy's new Combat Support Ship, HNLMS Den Helder, was signed today [Febl. 19] between local shipbuilder Damen and the Dutch Defense Materiel Organization (DMO).



Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding (DSNS) will supervise the project, together with DMO, as the main contractor. Damen will not do this alone; more than a hundred companies from the Dutch naval construction sector are involved in this ship. This means that a large part of the sector will be deployed to participate in this innovative new ship.

With HNLMS Den Helder, the maritime supply capacity of the Royal Netherlands Navy will be restored. The ship will operate alongside the Joint Support Ship HNLMS Karel Doorman. This vessel also forms the basis for the design of this Combat Support Ship. The new ship can be used worldwide and can operate under high threat, protected by frigates. In addition, she can be used in the fight against drug trafficking, controlling refugee flows and providing emergency aid...

The construction contract is not contracted out elsewhere in Europe. DMO wishes to keep the knowledge and skills of designing and building naval ships in the Netherlands. The armed forces thus invoked Article 346 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It states that Member States may protect essential security interests. This also relates to the production of defence equipment.

Completion is scheduled for the second quarter of 2024. A year later, in the second quarter of 2025, the Combat Support Ship must be operable. The size of the total project budget is 375 million euros...

The nearly 200-meter-long ship will have a 75-person crew and can also take an additional 75 people on board. The design can accommodate several helicopters and around 20 ISO containers. The construction cost of 375 million Euros is almost € 50 million higher than previously calculated. This is partly due to new standard requirements and developments in marine construction, energy, the environment and safety.

For example, the design has now explicitly looked at fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. The combination of diesel engines, hull shape and propeller design reduces fuel consumption by around 6 percent compared to the Karel Doorman JSS.

Delivery of the Den Helder is scheduled for the 2nd quarter of 2024. A year later, in the 2nd quarter of 2025, the CSS must be ready for duty with the RNLN.

During NEDS 2019, Damen was showcasing a scale model of the CSS (pictures above) featuring the following dimensions:

    Length over all: 179.3 meters
    Beam: 26.4 meters
    Displacement: 22,400 tonnes
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/02/damen-inks-contract-for-royal-netherlands-navy-new-combat-support-ship/

Mark
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Offline Underway

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2251 on: February 19, 2020, 17:09:36 »
RCN's first JSS now supposed to be delivered 2023 (good luck) and the two will cost $1.7 billion (!!!) each:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/joint-support-ship.html

Now Damen is building similar ship in Netherlands for their navy; contract just signed, delivery planned in just over four years, cost just some $540 million. Go flippin' shipbuilding figure:

Mark
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@Mark,  the ships are not even remotely similar aside from the fact they do the refueling mission.  Look more towards Asterix for a comparison.

JSS has some significant differences from this ship starting with crew numbers (75?  when do they refuel?  From 10 to 2 only?), communications, combat management, sensors, defensive systems, medical staff etc...

Once again JSS is a warship with all the pros and cons that entails.

As for the timeline, it's actually closer to 2022 though I do expect it to slip into 2023 for acceptance by the RCN.  I do expect builders trials to be happening in 2022.  The ship is well underway right now from a block build perspective.  1/5th of the blocks have already been built from what I've been told.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2252 on: February 20, 2020, 11:43:42 »
RCN's first JSS now supposed to be delivered 2023 (good luck) and the two will cost $1.7 billion (!!!) each:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/joint-support-ship.html

Now Damen is building similar ship in Netherlands for their navy; contract just signed, delivery planned in just over four years, cost just some $540 million. Go flippin' shipbuilding figure:

Mark
Ottawa

New Combat Support Ship "Den Helder" for Netherlands navy will actually be built in Romania--earlier from Damen:

Quote
...
The new Combat Support Ship (CSS) is based on the design of the Joint Support Ship Zr.Ms. Karel Doorman. By taking an existing design as a basis, it is possible to deliver the ship in 2024. The almost 200-meter-long ship will have a 75-person crew and can also take an additional 75 people on board. There is room for several helicopters and around twenty containers. The engineering of the CSS largely takes place in the Netherlands and a large number of components will be delivered by Dutch suppliers. The CSS is built by Damen in Romania, after which the ship’s final components and the combat management system will be installed in Den Helder [name also of shipyard in Netherlands]...
https://www.damen.com/en/news/2019/12/dutch_cabinet_decides_to_build_combat_support_ship_zr_ms_den_helder

Mark
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2253 on: February 20, 2020, 11:54:32 »
Once again JSS is a warship with all the pros and cons that entails.

From the article about the Den Helder.  “The new ship can be used worldwide and can operate under high threat, protected by frigates. In addition, she can be used in the fight against drug trafficking, controlling refugee flows and providing emergency aid.”   

What makes the JSS different?  I assume the JSS will have a self-defence suite and that’s it.  The vessel won’t be entering high threat environments without protection.

 I don’t disagree with you, but what makes the JSS a warship and the Den Helder not?

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2254 on: February 20, 2020, 16:11:37 »
Gov't classifies JSS as one of"Non-combat vessel shipbuilding projects" assigned to Seaspan:
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/grandnav-largeves-eng.html



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Offline MTShaw

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2255 on: February 20, 2020, 18:23:14 »
Gov't classifies JSS as one of"Non-combat vessel shipbuilding projects" assigned to Seaspan:
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/grandnav-largeves-eng.html



Mark
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Hi Mark,

That’s the politics of shipbuilding. In an war these would be the first to be targeted. Canada needs oilers to make it to and from the war zone. The Dutch already live there. Having some Kevlar armour, HY80 and two independent drive lines costs money. Also, give Seaspan a bit of a break: they are learning how make war ships for the first time. 

Finally, 1.7bn covers infrastructure, training and in life service. It is very difficult to compare two different builds on money.

Michael

Offline Uzlu

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2256 on: February 20, 2020, 20:53:07 »
RCN's first JSS now supposed to be delivered 2023 (good luck) and the two will cost $1.7 billion (!!!) each
Quote
Finn said that the final contract to be signed with the builder will not be for $3.4 billion.  The cost of the ships represents only 60 per cent of the revised figure, said Finn
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supply-ships-cost-estimate-1.4693088

Quote
The report said the main problem facing the industry is that foreign governments heavily subsidize their shipyards, leaving Canadians unable to compete.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/no-subsidies-for-shipbuilding-industry-says-tobin-1.270095


Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2257 on: February 20, 2020, 20:59:05 »
give Seaspan a bit of a break: they are learning how make war ships for the first time. 

Yet they will still produce a quality product.

Unlike Irving who continually deliver crap.


Offline Underway

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2258 on: February 20, 2020, 21:22:27 »
From the article about the Den Helder.  “The new ship can be used worldwide and can operate under high threat, protected by frigates. In addition, she can be used in the fight against drug trafficking, controlling refugee flows and providing emergency aid.”   

What makes the JSS different?  I assume the JSS will have a self-defence suite and that’s it.  The vessel won’t be entering high threat environments without protection.

 I don’t disagree with you, but what makes the JSS a warship and the Den Helder not?

A few things. Open source things JSS will have.  I doubt very much that Den Helder will have even a few of these:

CBRN capability (ie can operate in those environments)
Operations Room capable of supporting a Task Group Command Staff
Communications suite capable of supporting a Task Group Command Staff
2 Phalanx CIWS
4 Naval Remote Weapon Systems plus more 2 .50 cal mounts
Full damage control capability
Full support to Cyclone for all Cyclone operations including ASW
Air/Surface Surveillance radar (not just navigation radars) with of course a longer radar horizon than the frigates currently have due to height of eye...

Gov't classifies JSS as one of"Non-combat vessel shipbuilding projects" assigned to Seaspan:

Yes, that's true.  A warship can operate in a war zone.  A combatant fights in a war zone.  (All cats are mammals but not all mammals are cats).  JSS weapon systems are defensive (excluding some helo ops.).

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2259 on: February 21, 2020, 06:43:48 »
Full support to Cyclone for all Cyclone operations including ASW

As soon as the MH community masters the ASP (Acoustic Processor) on the Cyclone they will own the UWW game.  A TG with a few frigates and the JSS could quite possibly have 3-4 cyclones... No where to hide.

I understand the CH-148 dipping sonar is probably the best out there right now.  I am very familiar with the with the acoustic processor and the passive tracking capability (operators need to know how to work it and understand the passive side, which can take a while) is quite remarkable.  Ping stealing from hull mounted sonar and other dippers, the ranges will blow you away. It can be done, I’ve seen it.

I couldn’t find the full specs on the Den Helder, but yes I doubt they will have the command and control capability of the JSS.



Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2260 on: February 21, 2020, 08:09:39 »

I couldn’t find the full specs on the Den Helder, but yes I doubt they will have the command and control capability of the JSS.

So is what being said is that the JSS will replace the command and control capability that our old Iroquois class had within a TF? 

Are we going down the path that an AOS provider is taking on the role of a Task Group Leaders?

Offline CloudCover

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2261 on: February 21, 2020, 14:44:28 »
Does it have the speed and maneuvering to fight like that.
... Move!! ...

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2262 on: February 21, 2020, 18:34:55 »
Does it have the speed and maneuvering to fight like that.

Fight like what? 

So is what being said is that the JSS will replace the command and control capability that our old Iroquois class had within a TF? 

Are we going down the path that an AOS provider is taking on the role of a Task Group Leaders?

No.  JSS has a full command and control capability to be able to run a Task Group. What kind of TG I'm sure will depend on the mission.  For example, a Gulf War scenario where Canada ran the naval resupply and refuel part of the mission. It might be ideal for that sort of job. The AOR's historically have also participated in a number of boardings and interdictions over the years.  Might be great at directing and coordinating humanitarian missions with AOPS. the army and airforce combined.  Embarking and providing infrastructure for SOF is awkward on the frigates. Running a full naval combat task group in a war probably still falls to a frigate or destroyer.

The path going forward seems to me (speculation past here) to be that all new build major surface ships will have an ability to embark a Command Staff of some sort.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2263 on: February 23, 2020, 23:58:10 »
Fight like what? 

No.  JSS has a full command and control capability to be able to run a Task Group. What kind of TG I'm sure will depend on the mission.  For example, a Gulf War scenario where Canada ran the naval resupply and refuel part of the mission. It might be ideal for that sort of job. The AOR's historically have also participated in a number of boardings and interdictions over the years.  Might be great at directing and coordinating humanitarian missions with AOPS. the army and airforce combined.  Embarking and providing infrastructure for SOF is awkward on the frigates. Running a full naval combat task group in a war probably still falls to a frigate or destroyer.

The path going forward seems to me (speculation past here) to be that all new build major surface ships will have an ability to embark a Command Staff of some sort.

If we want to dominate remote and strategically vital parts of the globe more, and more durable, logistics platforms like the JSS, as opposed to bigger and better 'battleships', might be the best ploy...
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2264 on: February 24, 2020, 11:41:34 »
What astounds me is that having a fleet of capable AOR's, is great way for a Liberal government to help our Allies, earning brownie points and yet minimize political risk in operations. One would think they be all over that idea.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2265 on: February 24, 2020, 12:57:49 »
What astounds me is that having a fleet of capable AOR's, is great way for a Liberal government to help our Allies, earning brownie points and yet minimize political risk in operations. One would think they be all over that idea.

You aren't wrong.

For the same reasons you stated I find it odd that we don't have a ship like the Karel Doorman.   Yes our JSS can support various mission types, but let's not kid ourselves, it is just an AOR.  It is planned to have a crew of 199 (not including airdet) with space for 239.  How much of the extra 40 will be taken up by the airdet? 

Really doesn’t leave much space for anything else does it?  There certainly isn't space for an afloat JTFHQ...



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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2266 on: February 24, 2020, 15:46:13 »
You aren't wrong.

For the same reasons you stated I find it odd that we don't have a ship like the Karel Doorman.   Yes our JSS can support various mission types, but let's not kid ourselves, it is just an AOR.  It is planned to have a crew of 199 (not including airdet) with space for 239.  How much of the extra 40 will be taken up by the airdet? 

Really doesn’t leave much space for anything else does it?  There certainly isn't space for an afloat JTFHQ...

Same same.

And the Doorman type ships (or any other flat topped logistics vessel - civvy, militarized or military) would do a lot more in terms of gaining UN brownie points - Just like the C130s, C17s, CH-147s and CH-146s. 

1.9 BUSD buys you 10 Triple E Container ships, brand new from the yard (190 MUSD apiece) with two screws, two times 30 MW engines, a crew of 31 and 16 knots cruise (23 knots max).  That's a beast just shy of 400 m long and 60 m wide.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2267 on: February 25, 2020, 01:56:53 »
Prefer a couple of these with gantry style crane and some floating dock sections. https://www.macgregor.com/Products/merchant-cargo-and-passengers/deepsea-roro-ships/

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2268 on: February 25, 2020, 10:43:59 »
$1 billion and counting: Inside Canada's troubled efforts to build new warships

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/frigates-joint-supply-ships-navy-procurement-canada-1.5474312
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Offline Underway

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2269 on: February 25, 2020, 17:02:21 »
You aren't wrong.

For the same reasons you stated I find it odd that we don't have a ship like the Karel Doorman.   Yes our JSS can support various mission types, but let's not kid ourselves, it is just an AOR.  It is planned to have a crew of 199 (not including airdet) with space for 239.  How much of the extra 40 will be taken up by the airdet? 

Really doesn’t leave much space for anything else does it?  There certainly isn't space for an afloat JTFHQ...

Actual crew numbers are still being decided.  Total bunk space has been decided.  The ship has a surprising amount of space.

The Karel Doorman isn't really a great concept in practice.  Much better to go with the proper AOR's like other navies IMHO.  The Dutch were trying something to allow them to keep their Marines relevant.  We don't have that same historical/political pressure in Canada.  We have the Regimental System instead to handcuff us.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2270 on: February 25, 2020, 17:24:05 »
The most recent SOR I read had those numbers.

I figured a ship like the KD would be a fantastic humanitarian platform.  AOR duties would be secondary, I wouldn’t expect it replace the AOR, just complement the force. 

Instead of sending our AOR to humanitarian crisis areas we could send the KD.  Leaving the AOR where it’s needed, with the fleet.




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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2271 on: February 25, 2020, 17:55:19 »
Given the condition of the CPFs, keeping the JSS with the fleet likely means keeping them alongside in Halifax and Esquimalt...
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2272 on: February 25, 2020, 20:48:47 »
The most recent SOR I read had those numbers.


You are not incorrect, however, as much of the specific equipment onboard is still being finalized there will be changes to crew numbers for core crew, training billets, etc...




Offline OceanBonfire

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2273 on: March 03, 2020, 15:22:16 »


Quote
First of two Grand Blocks for @RoyalCanNavy future Joint Support Ship HMCS Protecteur being welded together and @Seaspan team moving next Grand Block into position.

https://twitter.com/MoreThanShips/status/1234845920082178050
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