Author Topic: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ  (Read 455029 times)

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Online MarkOttawa

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #600 on: November 12, 2017, 16:23:20 »
Official news release, note vague timing for start of actual construction:

Quote
New extension to the closing date for the Canadian Surface Combatant Request for Proposals

OTTAWA, Nov. 10, 2017 /CNW/ - The Government of Canada and Irving Shipbuilding Inc. are extending the submission deadline for the Request for Proposals (RFP) for the design of the Canadian Surface Combatant fleet to November 30, 2017. 

The Canadian Surface Combatant is the largest, most complex procurement undertaken by the Government of Canada, and the ships being built will form the backbone of the Royal Canadian Navy.

Based on lessons learned from the voluntary review process conducted during the summer of 2017, the Government of Canada and Irving Shipbuilding Inc. recently amended the Request for Proposals, including the Evaluation Plan, to simplify the submission requirements and to allow bidders to demonstrate the full potential of their proposed solution to satisfy Canada's requirements. These amendments have maintained the requirements of the Royal Canadian Navy.

Following the amendments to the RFP, some bidders requested additional time to finalize their bids. Therefore, in accordance with established processes, the decision was made to extend the closing date so that bidders have every opportunity to submit compliant bids.

Targeted completion for the procurement process is scheduled for 2018 and the start of ship construction remains scheduled for the early 2020s [emphasis added].

The Government is committed to ensuring an open, fair and transparent procurement process that will provide the Royal Canadian Navy with the vessels it needs to do its work protecting Canadians.

Given the magnitude and importance of this project, every effort is being made to ensure that this procurement is effectively executed and that bidders have the opportunity to submit high quality compliant bids that provide good value for money and maximize Canadian Content.

Canada and Irving Shipbuilding intend to hold a Technical Briefing on the next stages of procurement process prior to the bid closing.

Associated Links

    Establishment of a closing date for the Canadian Surface Combatant Request for Proposals
    Further extension to the closing date for the Canadian Surface Combatant Requests for Proposals
    Extension to the closing date for the Canadian Surface Combatant Requests for Proposals
    Competitive process launched to select design of Canadian Surface Combatant
    Government announced streamlined procurement approach to accelerate delivery of the Canadian Surface Combatant vessels

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SOURCE Public Services and Procurement Canada
http://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/New-extension-to-the-closing-date-for-the-Canadian-Surface-Combatant-Request-for-Proposals-1007593557

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #601 on: November 12, 2017, 16:31:27 »
 :trainwreck:

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #602 on: November 12, 2017, 16:46:47 »
Subtleties of language as usual:

Early 2020s is not the same as early 2020. The later actually happens near the beginning of the year 2020, the former in any year between 2021 and 2024.

Given that it takes easily two to three years, minimum, to build a ship of that size and complexity and another year, at least, to bring her to operational capability, we ain't seeing replacement for the IRO destroyers until at least 2025, more likely later.

That means the RCN will have gone without replacement fro the IRO's for 10 years, for ships that we knew as early as 2005 needed urgent replacements.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #603 on: November 12, 2017, 17:39:00 »
I thought they did already? CDR mentioned when they visited CANSEC that they had a booth that went pretty unnoticed and what they are offering is a variant of the De Zeven Provincien from DAMEN. I hope I am thinking of Alion here...

Edit: I guess showcasing at a booth would be different than submitting a bid. But I guess it would be safe to assume that it would still be the De Zeven?

Thank you.  Sorry for the late reply.  A bid based on the De Zeven Provinciën-class frigate, I think, might be a very strong bid.  It is an air-defence and command frigate unlike the Baden-Württemberg-class frigate.

It has a speed of 30 knots—slightly slower than the Halifax-class frigate but faster than the Álvaro de Bazán-class frigate, faster than the Baden-Württemberg-class frigate, faster than the Aquitaine-class frigate, faster than the Sachsen-class frigate, and faster than the Type 26 frigate.  The Royal Canadian Navy is looking for something fast—presumably fast enough to keep up with American carrier strike groups.

It uses Active Phased Array Radar, which was developed by the Netherlands, Germany, and Canada.  The Liberals are looking for Canadian content.  It has a 127-millimeter gun—exactly what the Royal Canadian Navy wants.  Perhaps a consortium with Thales as lead partner, Alion, and Damen Group can put together an extremely strong bid.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 17:43:03 by Uzlu »

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #604 on: November 13, 2017, 11:01:24 »
Thank you.  Sorry for the late reply.  A bid based on the De Zeven Provinciën-class frigate, I think, might be a very strong bid.  It is an air-defence and command frigate unlike the Baden-Württemberg-class frigate.

It has a speed of 30 knots—slightly slower than the Halifax-class frigate but faster than the Álvaro de Bazán-class frigate, faster than the Baden-Württemberg-class frigate, faster than the Aquitaine-class frigate, faster than the Sachsen-class frigate, and faster than the Type 26 frigate.  The Royal Canadian Navy is looking for something fast—presumably fast enough to keep up with American carrier strike groups.

It uses Active Phased Array Radar, which was developed by the Netherlands, Germany, and Canada.  The Liberals are looking for Canadian content.  It has a 127-millimeter gun—exactly what the Royal Canadian Navy wants.  Perhaps a consortium with Thales as lead partner, Alion, and Damen Group can put together an extremely strong bid.

Well to be fair i completely agree(and think i'm not the only 1 here  :whistle:  )and suggested as much allready.But i don't see it happening.

But maybe there's a light at the end of the tunnel,because "de Zeven" is mentioned as a "dark horse"in the American programme,so that(if choosen)may launch it forward as the preferred design.(let's hope so for Canada,whatever will be chosen,it's time to start building replacements for the"Iroquois"

Btw,the "De Zevens"will get the new Smart-LMM radars starting from this year,and will go on next year.Also a replacement for the 127mm canons is in the starting phase(probably vulcano,127mm)OTO Melara 127 64 LW Vulcano Naval Gun System.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 13:48:55 by Karel Doorman »
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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #605 on: November 13, 2017, 16:22:34 »
French and Italians join forces, also looking to pitch together for USN FFG(X)--note IP issue with Irving and see further link at end:

Quote
‘Naval Airbus’ progress: Italian-French frigate pitch for Canada moves forward

A senior manager at Fincantieri has given the first official confirmation that the Italian shipyard will jointly bid to sell the FREMM frigate to Canada in partnership with France’s Naval Group.

The team-up will be a first concrete step toward a possible merger, or joint venture, between Fincantieri and Naval Group, which is currently being discussed by the two firms and has been dubbed a “Naval Airbus“ for Europe.

Addressing analysts on Nov. 10, Fincantieri General Manager Alberto Maestrini said: “An example of this collaboration is the joint bid we intend to present to the Royal Canadian Navy for their [request for proposals] on the construction of 15 frigates.”

France and Italy jointly designed the FREMM frigate for use by their navies, but have hitherto marketed the vessel separately around the world. Fincantieri is currently shortlisted to sell the frigate to Australia, while France has sold one to Morocco and to Egypt.

Talks to unite France and Italy’s shipbuilding capacity grew out of Fincantieri’s takeover this autumn of French yard STX.

Fincantieri plans to create synergies between STX and its own yards in Italy in the civil cruise-ship sector. But the talks also spurred debate over naval tie-ups between Fincantieri and Naval Group, which would help reduce the fragmentation of Europe’s naval industry and allow it to compete more effectively around the world...

One obstacle to a joint Canadian bid is Fincantieri’s objections to the way the tender has been organized. Canada has asked private firm Irving to coordinate the work of the ship’s designer, leading to fears that the winning bidder would be forced to hand over too much intellectual property to Irving [emphasis added].

Looking beyond the Canada bid, Maestrini said the FREMM frigate would be well-suited for another pending program. “We think it will also match perfectly the requirements put forward by the U.S. Navy in their recent request for design proposals for the Future Frigate Program [emphasis added],” he said...
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/11/13/naval-airbus-progress-italian-french-frigate-pitch-moves-forward-for-canada/


From 2016:

Quote
RCN Canadian Surface Combatant: Intellectual Property Brouhaha
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/mark-collins-rcn-canadian-surface-combatant-intellectual-property-brouhaha/

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Offline Underway

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #606 on: November 13, 2017, 22:06:54 »
And now we are down to 6.  Interesting.  Naval Group (formerly DCNS) and Fincantieri were originally expected to bid on the project separately from everything I've read.

Fincantieri were the ones who were most concerned about the way the bidding system was set up.  They were also the ones who wanted the first three ships built in Italy to test them out.  Makes sense that they are essentially "pulling" their bid and reducing their risk by teaming up with the French who appear far more sanguine about the process.

Some info below on the potential FREMM Naval Group bid.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/3996-dcns-confident-its-fremm-is-the-right-solution-for-the-royal-canadian-navy-csc-program.html

Quote
Two FREMM variants based on the same baseline vessel are being offered by DCNS as Olivier Casenave explains: "We are proposing two variants of our FREMM. A multi-mission variant and an air defense variant. Both will have strong ASW capabilities".

Asked about the likely differences between an Aquitaine-class FREMM and a Royal Canadian Navy FREMM, DCNS said "There are a few differences to be expected. For example, the French Navy FREMM accommodates the NH90 NFH helicopter. For CSC, our FREMM will be modified in order to accommodate the CH-148 Cyclone helicopter of the Canadian Forces”.

As a matter of fact, under the refined procurement process, Canada prompts bidders to integrate in their offer up to 24 Canadian equipment, systems and technologies. It is not a surprise to have on this list equipment such as helicopter handling system, underway replenishment at sea or integrated platform management system (IPMS). Such systems will have to be fitted onboard FREMM. However as far as missiles are concerned, shipbuilders may offer the system of their choice. Canada seems decided not to re-use the venerable Mk41 launchers currently fitted on its vessels. Therefore DCNS will probably offer missile solutions by MBDA. Regarding radars there no Canadian requirement for now. For the Air Defense variant DCNS is proposing a FREMM fitted with a 4 panel array radar (active electronically scanned) from Thales

And some more info from CANSEC it looks like the FREMM-ER that Naval Group were going to bid.

https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/dcns-la-nouvelle-fremm-er-devoilee-ottawa

In english:
Quote
While the French group is competing for the Canadian Navy's Frigate and Destroyer Renewal Program, it took advantage of CANSEC, held May 25-26 in Ottawa, to unveil the new version of its FREMM ER. Revealed in October 2012 at Euronaval, the Extended Range multi-mission frigate has enhanced capabilities in area air defense and even ballistic missile defense thanks to the new Sea Fire 500 radar.Thales. Featuring four flat faces, providing 360-degree continuous monitoring, this new radar, which uses active antenna technology, is used for the detection, identification, tracking and conduct of fire on the high seas and in coastal areas. It is integrated into a single mast overlooking the bridge and accommodates most other sensors, communication systems and electronic warfare equipment. Compared to the first version of the FREMM ER, the new model, which DCNS revealed with the Canadian red maple leaf on the chimney, notably saw the positioning of the four antennas of the Sea Fire 500 evolve.

The FREMM ER is still based on the model of the multi-mission frigate ordered eight copies by the French Navy (the third was delivered in March, the last will be in 2022), DCNS having also sold two units of this type to Morocco and Egypt. With a length of 142 meters and a width of 20 meters, these buildings are equipped with an integrated SETIS combat system that manages all sensors and weapons. The French frigate, adaptable according to the needs of customers, is a formidable anti-submarine platform, with a bow sonar, a Captas 4 towed sonar, torpedo tubes and the possibility of shipping one or two helicopters.

The building can also use a 76mm or 127mm turret, light tele-operated artillery, 8 anti-ship missiles, and front-mounted vertical launchers totaling 32 cells. These can house surface-to-air missiles, such as Aster 15 and Aster 30, as well as cruise missiles. It is also possible, especially near the hangar, to install other vertical launchers for short-range surface-to-air missiles, such as VL Mica. For special operations, two niches on each side can house commando boats. The FREMMs, which have a hybrid propulsion (electric and therefore silent up to 16 knots and gas turbine for high speeds with a maximum speed of 27 knots), are finally very automated boats,

Offline Uzlu

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #607 on: November 14, 2017, 12:31:25 »
Fincantieri were the ones who were most concerned about the way the bidding system was set up.  They were also the ones who wanted the first three ships built in Italy to test them out.  Makes sense that they are essentially "pulling" their bid and reducing their risk by teaming up with the French who appear far more sanguine about the process.
I would not be surprised if Fincantieri was told that there will very likely be no more extensions.  I wonder what happened to the combat systems integrator that Fincantieri teamed up with.  It would be a pity to have spent about ten to twenty million dollars with nothing to show for it.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #608 on: November 23, 2017, 14:42:18 »
And as said another bid has come in,which is also a contender,i think.The "the Seven"put in by Alion and partners.(design is Damen/Dutch Navy)

Strong points,
-Proven design
-Partially Canadian radar.
-Full integration with US  missiles(the missiles that Canada wants)
-Can be brought in production very quickly.
-Not much adjustments needed("Canadiasing",hope i say it correct)

Out of Frontline Defense:

"The four front-runners, in no particular order, are the Odense Marine Technologies (OMT) Iver Huitfeldt class already in service with the Royal Danish Navy; the BAE Systems Type 26 Global Combat Ship; the DCNS FREMM already in service with France, Morocco and Egypt; and the Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems F125 design. Additionally, Vard, formerly STX Canada and now a Fincantieri subsidiary, is promoting the Italian FREMM design. Potential candidate number six is the Dutch Air Defence and Command Frigate built by Damen Schelde Shipyards for the Royal Netherlands Navy. Spain’s Navantia and possibly Daewoo round out the possible contender designs (if Daewoo can circumvent the NATO requirement)"

And a bit on the Damen/Alion bid.

Air Defence and Command Frigate
Damen Schelde Group
The Dutch Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding Group specializes in the design and construction of naval vessels and complex commercial vessels. With over 125 years of industrial and shipbuilding history, the Royal Schelde shipyard has been involved in many projects for the Royal Netherlands Navy’s new surface combatants and support ships. Damen promotes the idea of building vessels in local shipyards. From 2002 to 2005 they delivered 3 vessels to the Royal Netherlands Navy, including HNLMS Tromp. These frigates appear to meet the needs of the RCN in many areas. The hull form is 144.2 m LOA and can attain speeds up to 29 knots using a CODOG propulsion system – 2 Rolls Royce Spey SM1C Gas Turbines and 2 Wartsila Diesels. The ship has a flight deck and hangar capable of carrying an NH 90. Command Systems and APAR Radar are by Thales and the vessel is fitted with 40 VLS cells capable of launching the Evolved Sea Sparrow or Standard Missiles. Main armament also includes Harpoon and the 127 mm Oto Melara Gun. The Goalkeeper Close-in Weapons system and ASW torpedoes are also fitted. The standard crew size of 220 is in line with current RCN thinking.

Damen has kept a very low profile and little is known of their intentions for involvement in the CSC project. There are some who would put them in the list of top four contenders for WD. Reportedly they have good working relationships with Irving. If they are interested they can be expected to bid as a WD only


http://defence.frontline.online/article/2015/4/2143-Warship-Design

I know it's from 2015,but as said there's a bid.

PS,i think the design also has a chance in the "FFG-programme" for new frigates in the USN.(would love to see 20 US and 10?Canadian "derivatives" on the oceans,proud "Dutchie")






« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 15:26:21 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Underway

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #609 on: November 23, 2017, 18:34:32 »
I would not be surprised if Fincantieri was told that there will very likely be no more extensions.  I wonder what happened to the combat systems integrator that Fincantieri teamed up with.  It would be a pity to have spent about ten to twenty million dollars with nothing to show for it.

Ficantieri's combat systems integrator was most likely Ficantieri or even DCNS.

And as said another bid has come in,which is also a contender,i think.The "the Seven"put in by Alion and partners.(design is Damen/Dutch Navy)

Confirmed through two other sources that are much more recent (CANSEC 2017 had a booth from Alion there with this bid).  Alion does work on the Arleigh Burkes and Tico's so it's got a bit of experience here.  They partnered with Damen Shipbuilding, Atlas Electronik, and Hendsoldt for the bid with Damen being the CSI.  I'm not going to say darkhorse, but Alion is very much a KISS design type company.  Low risk, evolutionary designs, attacks engineering problems with the proper focus on the operator, good attention to detail.  Corporate culture is very much quiet confidence.  Wouldn't be surprised if they won.

Their bid arguably has one of the best Air Warfare systems available (APAR 2 and SMART-L or S), but what would the low end GP variant look like?

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #610 on: November 23, 2017, 19:05:12 »
Ficantieri's combat systems integrator was most likely Ficantieri or even DCNS.

Confirmed through two other sources that are much more recent (CANSEC 2017 had a booth from Alion there with this bid).  Alion does work on the Arleigh Burkes and Tico's so it's got a bit of experience here.  They partnered with Damen Shipbuilding, Atlas Electronik, and Hendsoldt for the bid with Damen being the CSI.  I'm not going to say darkhorse, but Alion is very much a KISS design type company.  Low risk, evolutionary designs, attacks engineering problems with the proper focus on the operator, good attention to detail.  Corporate culture is very much quiet confidence.  Wouldn't be surprised if they won.

Their bid arguably has one of the best Air Warfare systems available (APAR 2 and SMART-L or S), but what would the low end GP variant look like?

Well to be fair it would be APAR2 and SMART-MMN(Multi Mission Naval,2000 kms reach,or SMART-L MK2 to give it a simpler name)what the low end variant would look like,well i'm as curious as you.  :nod:

And to be fair i've known of the more recent happenings,that's why i said the bid has come in as of today(official)longer unofficial,or "dark horse"so you will(or not widely known,played their cards close to their chest.(Damen,Alion,e.o.)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 19:11:27 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #612 on: November 23, 2017, 19:32:39 »
Well to be fair it would be APAR2 and SMART-MMN(Multi Mission Naval,2000 kms reach,or SMART-L MK2 to give it a simpler name)what the low end variant would look like,well i'm as curious as you.  :nod:

And to be fair i've known of the more recent happenings,that's why i said the bid has come in as of today(official)longer unofficial,or "dark horse"so you will(or not widely known,played their cards close to their chest.(Damen,Alion,e.o.)
I would imagine that other bids could include the APAR2/Smart MMN systems, yes?? I would think that these are the systems we would want to have, as the coverage is outstanding.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #613 on: November 23, 2017, 20:24:05 »
I would imagine that other bids could include the APAR2/Smart MMN systems, yes?? I would think that these are the systems we would want to have, as the coverage is outstanding.

Well to be fair Alexander,i'm not too sure about that since Thales Netherlands holds the patents or "key" so you will.To give an example to my knowledge the RNLN is launcing customer to the SMART-MMN(on the DZP-class),so i don't know what's Thales's feeling to adopt that to any other design as you put it,but hey i could be wrong.
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #614 on: November 23, 2017, 20:28:32 »
Well to be fair Alexander,i'm not too sure about that since Thales Netherlands holds the patents or "key" so you will.To give an example to my knowledge the RNLN is launcing customer to the SMART-MMN(on the DZP-class),so i don't know what's Thales's feeling to adopt that to any other design as you put it,but hey i could be wrong.
It's already on multiple designs though, and by that I mean the Smart-L, that's the point. There would be a cost but that's to be expected. RNLN would have paid for the upgrade then if anyone else wants to use that upgrade they would have to pay.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 20:32:57 by AlexanderM »

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #615 on: November 23, 2017, 20:32:22 »
It's already on multiple designs though, that's the point. There would be a cost but that's to be expected.

well yeah the  SMART-L is as is APAR,but not the SMART-MMN and APAR2.that's my point.Those are brand new,complete systems,so you'll have to change you're "old" systems.To give an example to get to SMART-MMN,you'll have to change the rotating "bit"since the new one has way more panels with more capacity(if i may call them that),so it's not just a "chip"tune,hard ware is also involved.

And Chris btw,yeah that's APAR2 on the crossover design.(well it looks like that)more the "form"/outer structure on what we have on the "Hollands"

BTW i wish we had some of these ships,but the design is untill now never used,a pity.(there are several variants)In "other"news it looks like we're getting a new/extra tanker(AOR)not known what it will look like.(i'm sure Damen knows.)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 20:48:20 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #616 on: November 23, 2017, 20:34:48 »
well yeah the  SMART-L is as is APAR,but not the SMART-MMN and APAR2.that's my point.
Well with APAR Canada is a partner so we would have access, at a cost and the same would likely be true of the upgraded Smart-L.

Here is something on the APAR, we have to pay no question, but that would all be worked out, as it would be with the Smart-L system I imagine, but we wouldn't have to use the specific hull design, that would be a separate issue. It's likely they would recover some of their development money which they would appreciate.

http://www.janes.com/article/71025/gan-radar-directed-at-csc-cansec17d2

Here is the information on the Smart-L MM. I think it can be assumed that the developing nation would be a partner and would benefit from any sales.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/smart-l-ewc
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 21:51:12 by AlexanderM »

Offline Underway

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #617 on: November 24, 2017, 18:08:07 »
Well to be fair Alexander,i'm not too sure about that since Thales Netherlands holds the patents or "key" so you will.To give an example to my knowledge the RNLN is launcing customer to the SMART-MMN(on the DZP-class),so i don't know what's Thales's feeling to adopt that to any other design as you put it,but hey i could be wrong.

Thales will most likely be supplying radars to multiple bids.  They might not be the combat systems integrator but that doesn't mean their kit won't be on the ship.  They said as much in a CDR magazine interview a few years back.  Guaranteed the Sea Fire 500 is on the FREMM bid and the APAR 2 is on two or three bids.  A similar example would be the BAE 127/62 gun could be on multiple ships even though they are doing their own in house bid.

With APAR 2 it says in the glossy brochure that it does a multi beam volume search but its a multi function radar. APAR 2 is a high freq X band (maybe even Ku band) radar which is not normally used for search.  Concern here is that in an engagement you are moving some of your single radar to targeting/tracking functions and taking it away from search.  With two radars you get redundancy and workload sharing.

Perhaps the bid would pair an APAR 2 with a SMART-S for the GP frigate and a SMART-L for the AAW version, or you could just take the SMART radar off the GP version.  Also it's interesting to note that the APAR 2 does digital beamforming which up until recently was only on CEAFAR and the MF-STAR if I remember correctly.  True 4th gen active phased array if that's the case.

Another question... what is going on the Navinata bid?  I expect them to put in a variant of the F-100 but their normal F-100's have SPY1 radars.  Not sure if that's something that would/could be put into the bid and if it would be worth it on a GP frigate.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 20:24:29 by Underway »

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #618 on: November 24, 2017, 22:25:54 »
Article about Alion in Esprit de Corps.

http://espritdecorps.ca/eye-on-industry/alion-canada-locally-developed-globally-delivered

Quote

November 15, 2017
By Sandrine Murray

November 30, 2017 is the deadline for Alion Canada to submit its request for proposal (RFP) for the design of the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) contract. If anyone is [over]qualified for the job, it’s Alion.

What started as a Chicago-based technology research institute in the 1930s became Alion Science and Technology Corporation in 2002. Alion provides engineering and operational support to the U.S. government for national defence, intelligence and homeland security. They were the design agent for the DDG-51 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers and C-47 Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruisers in the U.S. Navy.

Canada offered an attractive market to invest and expand the operations of Alion, specifically in the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy (NSPS, now called the National Shipbuilding Strategy or NSS).

Alion couldn’t simply import the U.S. expertise and capabilities to Canada, explained Chief Operating Officer Bruce E. Samuelsen. Instead, it would need to implant them within the country. To do so, they established Alion Canada in 2009.

Alion Canada has about 100 professionals, which includes engineers, naval architects and designers living and working in Canada. The company will leverage strength from the U.S. operations to support growth in Canada. American engineers trained Canadians.

“I’ve weaned myself of all the Americans, and now have implanted that skillset here,” Samuelsen says. 

Alion Canada is committed to Canada for the long run. The investments made in Canada to date have already generated jobs and economic benefit, said Samuelsen. Alion has met with businesses across Canada to create opportunities for the Canadian industry and exports. Their proposition promises high-value work and sustainable economic benefits.

These include internships and work on various aspects of Alion, he says, including the CSC bid. Alion Canada’s goal is to lead the CSC design project and to export its ship design capabilities to the broader global market.

The Canadian government will invest in 15 CSC vessels, which will be Canada’s major surface component of maritime combat power. They need to be designed to be rapidly deployed anywhere in the world, either independently or as part of a Canadian international coalition. According to the Parliamentary Budget Office, the entire CSC program is projected to cost roughly $60-billion, which include such costs as training and ammunition; this amount does not include costs for personnel, operations, maintenance and mid-life refurbishment of the vessels.

The CSC project, part of the National Shipbuilding Strategy to renew the Royal Canadian Navy’s fleet, will replace the Iroquois-class destroyers and the Halifax-class multi-role patrol frigates with one single class capable of meeting various threats on the open ocean and coastal environment.

This is the biggest shipbuilding project in Canada since the Second World War, and involves a lengthy five-stage acquisition process.

“It’s a massive procurement,” says Samuelsen. “I’ve been able to pull people out of retirement for this project.”

Designing a ship is like designing a small city, but with a twist, he explained. Pull a city out of its roots and look at all the services and components that allow it to run smoothly. Then make it whole, so it can become self-sustaining. Finally, place it in the world’s most hostile environment, the ocean … now the task seems even more challenging.

“The complexity of a ship, for me as a naval architect, is really cool,” said Samuelsen. “But to develop the response, it’s a very intensive, cautious, careful process.”

But Alion is ready, because they bring an off-the-shelf design with a proven combat system and ship platform, making the necessary changes to meet Canada’s requirement. The platform and system solutions are currently operational to reduce the risk and cost for the Royal Canadian Navy and the Canadian taxpayer.

They selected the Dutch De Zeven Provinciën Air Defence and Command (LCF) frigate as a baseline for CSC, because it meets all the mandatory selection criteria without modification. It will also accelerate the production process, because it requires substantially fewer changes and provides the lowest risk approach to fulfilling Canada’s needs.


Offline Uzlu

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #619 on: November 25, 2017, 06:45:37 »
Article about Alion in Esprit de Corps.

http://espritdecorps.ca/eye-on-industry/alion-canada-locally-developed-globally-delivered

They selected the Dutch De Zeven Provinciën Air Defence and Command (LCF) frigate as a baseline for CSC, because it meets all the mandatory selection criteria without modification.

This is why I thought that a bid based on this design could be a very strong bid.  Every one of the seven other designs appears to require more modifications.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #620 on: November 25, 2017, 07:41:19 »
The devil is always in the details. 

The Daring Class appears to be the poster child for 'new' designs that once constructed were found to have major design flaws which were not identified pre-build

That clean sheet risk (especially from BAE) makes me wary of the Type 26 baseline.

On the other hand it appears that all the other competitors are using proven hull-propulsion designs as a base which SHOULD improve the probability of solid reliability.

Ignoring the weapons-sensor fit, does anyone have any thoughts or experience with the other competitors hull-propulsion options?

Thank you in advance....
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Offline Uzlu

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #621 on: November 25, 2017, 08:50:12 »
Ignoring the weapons-sensor fit, does anyone have any thoughts or experience with the other competitors hull-propulsion options?

Well, the Halifax-class frigate uses combined diesel or gas (CODOG).  I am assuming the Royal Canadian Navy likes the rapid acceleration that is possible with gas turbines.  Of the eight designs that might have had a chance of being used in a bid, only the Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate does not use gas turbines.

Offline Underway

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #622 on: November 25, 2017, 09:51:54 »
The devil is always in the details. 

The Daring Class appears to be the poster child for 'new' designs that once constructed were found to have major design flaws which were not identified pre-build

That clean sheet risk (especially from BAE) makes me wary of the Type 26 baseline.

On the other hand it appears that all the other competitors are using proven hull-propulsion designs as a base which SHOULD improve the probability of solid reliability.

Ignoring the weapons-sensor fit, does anyone have any thoughts or experience with the other competitors hull-propulsion options?

Thank you in advance....

If Naval Group/Ficianteri are using the FREMM-ER as their bid it's basically a new design.  The change to allowing advanced designs to bid was just as much a benefit for them IMHO as it was for BAE.  Kinda like saying iPhone 10 is the same as iPhone 2.

Reference your second questions the only system I can speak to is the Type 26 is using essentially the same propulsion as the Type 23 has.  Which is to say an extremely reliable design that has been proven, and popular with the RN brass.


Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #623 on: November 25, 2017, 13:41:45 »
Thanks Underway for correction on Type 26 propulsion....Matthew.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ
« Reply #624 on: November 25, 2017, 17:32:50 »
....

And Chris btw,yeah that's APAR2 on the crossover design.(well it looks like that)more the "form"/outer structure on what we have on the "Hollands"

BTW i wish we had some of these ships,but the design is untill now never used,a pity.(there are several variants)In "other"news it looks like we're getting a new/extra tanker(AOR)not known what it will look like.(i'm sure Damen knows.)

Can't help but wonder if the Damen Crossover - built on Sigma model which has been purchased by Morocco, Indonesia and Mexico - is any more developmental than the T26.

Damen at least has experience building all of the individual modules for inclusion in ships ranging from FPBs to FFGs and LPDs.

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"