Author Topic: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote  (Read 112828 times)

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #250 on: September 25, 2015, 08:15:26 »
First thought was "just showing off", but if he has mentioned his service in public on record, then I don't see how wearing his medals changes anything.  If someone would be swayed by them, they would have been swayed by him saying "I was in the military doing xyz".

We have had numerous former Service Members elected to Parliament in the past.  Laurie Hawn is one such member, whom I am sure did not need to wear any medals to indicate that he had previous military service.  That someone thinks the wearing of decorations or displaying a Certificate of some sort is necessary to impress on the public that they are somehow qualified above their opponents for a position, seems like a weak argument and grasping at straws.  It seems to me to be a case of being a desperate "Oh!  Look at me, I am special" kind of action. 

Is it something that I would take seriously?  Nope!  I would do a  :-\ and walk on by.
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Offline Danjanou

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #251 on: September 25, 2015, 09:42:09 »
He is in a catch 22.  He will be damned by vets for Not showing pride in his service, and pandering to Party PA officers if he does not wear them.

He wears them, and we admonish him for it, arguments aplenty; why?

Politics is war, and the one that stands is the one with the most votes.  I would rather have him use that technique and get in to parliament, than some local owner of the Cat food superstore. (I made that one up)

Good on him!

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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #252 on: September 30, 2015, 10:20:36 »
An interesting ad from Veterans Against ABC:


Source: https://www.facebook.com/veteransagainstABC?fref=nf

That group has turned away from being just anti-ABC and is now, quite unabashedly, pro-Conservative.
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Online MJP

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #253 on: September 30, 2015, 15:40:50 »
An interesting ad from Veterans Against ABC:


Source: https://www.facebook.com/veteransagainstABC?fref=nf

That group has turned away from being just anti-ABC and is now, quite unabashedly, pro-Conservative.

Not based on this but rather the tone of their other messages, I had emailed their organizer on FB that Vets Against ABC was no different than ABC themselves if they put crap posts up.  Can see that fell on deaf ears.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #254 on: September 30, 2015, 20:35:07 »
Minister Erin O'Toole's comments on the ABC group are here.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #255 on: October 02, 2015, 06:38:12 »
The "veterans" issue has surfaced again with a lawsuit (described as "frivolous" by the defendant) against Julian Fantino for an "assault" committed 42 years ago. The complainant says that his late father was a retired solider “and the way Fantino treated the veterans, well, this was the straw that broke the camel’s back.” ::)
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #256 on: October 02, 2015, 06:57:50 »
The "veterans" issue has surfaced again with a lawsuit (described as "frivolous" by the defendant) against Julian Fantino for an "assault" committed 42 years ago. The complainant says that his late father was a retired solider “and the way Fantino treated the veterans, well, this was the straw that broke the camel’s back.” ::)
Really?  Is that the best they can do?  :facepalm:
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #257 on: October 02, 2015, 07:41:31 »
The "veterans" issue has surfaced again with a lawsuit (described as "frivolous" by the defendant) against Julian Fantino for an "assault" committed 42 years ago. The complainant says that his late father was a retired solider “and the way Fantino treated the veterans, well, this was the straw that broke the camel’s back.” ::)

Talk about grasping at straws. 
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Offline Strike

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #258 on: October 02, 2015, 08:38:59 »
Minister Erin O'Toole's comments on the ABC group are here.

This is what makes me wonder how much the Unions are really involved with the ABC movement.

Quote
“Because ABC is a registered third-party campaign, they are able to receive donations. … Further, unions are part of the fabric of the Canadian way of life and they have been beneficial to the lower tiers of the socioeconomic strata for generations. So is it really such a ‘bad’ thing if the unions were to turn around and provide support.”

Aside from the unions nowadays having very little involvement in the real lower class for the past couple of generations at least, this sounds like something that came right off a media response line document that would have been sent out to spokespersons.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #259 on: October 05, 2015, 17:42:31 »
More, in this article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, about the spat between pro and anti Conservative veterans' groups:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/conservative-military-veterans-aim-to-counter-cowardly-anti-conservative-group/article26662338/
Quote

Conservative military veterans aim to counter ‘cowardly’ anti-Conservative group

BILL GRAVELAND
CALGARY — The Canadian Press

Published Monday, Oct. 05, 2015

A group of military veterans is standing up to support Stephen Harper’s Conservatives at the tail end of the federal election campaign.

Retired warrant officer Lee Humphrey says he was upset that another veterans group — “Anyone But Conservatives” — claimed to speak on behalf of military personnel when it announced plans in August to campaign against the Conservative leader.

Humphrey, 52, says he believes most who have served in the Canadian Forces are supportive of the Conservative government and he’s launched “Veterans For The Conservative Party of Canada” as a result. He said it’s important that the “silent majority” have its say.

“I think civilians, non-veterans, hear from these groups that we are all not being treated well and the government’s disrespecting us and they’re concerned with that. I think that there needs to be another voice out there to counter that message,” said Humphrey, who served in the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry and the Canadian Airborne Regiment before retiring in 2002.

“I thought there should be a voice that represents what I believe is the overwhelming number of people who have served and do support the current government.”

The chairman of the “Anyone But Conservatives” campaign said in the summer that veterans intended to hold rallies and protests across the country.

Tom Beaver, a former member of the Army who served as a peacekeeper in the 1990s, said he expected protests to be repeated at Conservative campaign stops across the country. He also predicted that veterans wearing their uniforms will be stationed near polls on election day in an effort to dissuade voters from supporting Harper.

Humphrey, who said his group’s Facebook page has 3,700 followers, said he is under no illusions that the Conservatives have done a great job. But he feels there have been improvements since Julian Fantino was replaced by Erin O’Toole in Veterans Affairs.

“There have been some high-profile, terrible mistakes, made at the bureaucratic level, but when you look at the government’s overall policy on the things most veterans care about ... this party is the best of the three major options.”

Humphrey is also critical of the ABC group for its critical attack, while not offering any kind of alternative to the Conservatives.

“I think it’s cowardly to hide behind this A as if ‘anyone’ is some mythical organization that’s going to come and save the day,” he said.

“People that care about things stand for something and in this case, while we recognize the current Conservative government has some flaws, they are the best of the three primary, federal options for veterans and serving military.”
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #260 on: October 06, 2015, 00:47:00 »
The comments to the article are [pause] entertaining to say the least.
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #261 on: October 06, 2015, 07:01:44 »
An interesting ad from Veterans Against ABC:


Source: https://www.facebook.com/veteransagainstABC?fref=nf

That group has turned away from being just anti-ABC and is now, quite unabashedly, pro-Conservative.
Spell check?
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #262 on: October 06, 2015, 18:36:34 »
Another veterans vs. veterans story, this one from Global News at the link.

It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #263 on: October 06, 2015, 18:43:48 »
That meme is oozing Britain First crockery.  Obviously they want to transition into one of those types of groups.  DO they even know the dark path they travel?

Once again, another group that truly does not speak for me!
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #264 on: October 06, 2015, 20:23:11 »
With less than two weeks to go and most polls showing Team Blue & Team Red essentially neck & neck (with Team Orange dropping off), what are the chances of the Conservatives dropping this lawsuit right here to get a few more vet votes?

They've walked away from other litigation since the writ was issued

Especially if it looks like the Liberals'll squeak in?  Let them find the money to pay?
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #265 on: October 07, 2015, 00:52:03 »
You mean use Veterans to do to the Liberals what was done to them?
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #266 on: October 07, 2015, 06:28:37 »
You mean use Veterans to do to the Liberals what was done to them?
Well, doing the right thing for vets hasn't been the lever one would have hoped in a majority government  :(
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #267 on: October 07, 2015, 10:55:36 »
I heard a quite unsubstantiated opinion that to reverse the NVC, particularly the life time pensions, would cost on the order of 7BN. That's enough to give anyone pause. Even if it's only half that, I'm not sure the public or politicians have the stomach for it. Remember "mile wide - inch deep".
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #268 on: October 07, 2015, 11:07:45 »
I heard a quite unsubstantiated opinion that to reverse the NVC, particularly the life time pensions, would cost on the order of 7BN. That's enough to give anyone pause. Even if it's only half that, I'm not sure the public or politicians have the stomach for it. Remember "mile wide - inch deep".
Thanks for sharing the RUMINT, MM - I'm staggered, but not surprised, by the neighbourhood of that figure.  I, sadly, have to agree about the bit in yellow  :(
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #269 on: October 07, 2015, 11:22:13 »
More on this, this time CTV News says that "an unprecedented political wedge is splitting the country's veterans, who are turning on each other in the countdown to the Oct. 19 vote."
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline reveng

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #270 on: October 07, 2015, 12:15:22 »
I heard a quite unsubstantiated opinion that to reverse the NVC, particularly the life time pensions, would cost on the order of 7BN. That's enough to give anyone pause. Even if it's only half that, I'm not sure the public or politicians have the stomach for it. Remember "mile wide - inch deep".


So I guess I shouldn't be holding my breath for Trudeau's "GI bill" ? 

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #271 on: October 07, 2015, 12:23:14 »
So I guess I shouldn't be holding my breath for Trudeau's "GI bill" ?
Or anyone else's, for that matter.
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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #272 on: October 07, 2015, 12:50:34 »
I heard a quite unsubstantiated opinion that to reverse the NVC, particularly the life time pensions, would cost on the order of 7BN. That's enough to give anyone pause. Even if it's only half that, I'm not sure the public or politicians have the stomach for it. Remember "mile wide - inch deep".

I call BS on that figure.

Looking solely at the disability pension/disability award issue, three groups of veterans will be created; existing Pension Act recipients, existing recipients of a Disability Award, and future recipients of a Disability Pension.

Existing Pension Act recipients are a known quantity and need to be budgeted just as they have been in the past.  In other words, there are no new costs associated with paying disability pensions to this group.

Existing recipients of a Disability Award would presumably be converted over to a Disability Pension scheme.  Knowing their disability factor makes it easy to find out what their Pension Act payments would have been had they been granted a disability pension at the pension eligibility date instead of a lump sum award.  Then, pension payments would be suspended until the amount of the already-awarded Disability Award is recovered via suspended pension payments.  Eventually the veteran's account would equalize, and they'd start receiving pension payments.

Future recipients of monthly disability pensions would result in a much lower yearly cost going forward (monthly payments) than one large single hit in the year a disability award would have been granted.  That's looking at costs for any given year, and not overall cost over the lifetime of veterans.

Unless I've overlooked something (and it's entirely possible that I may have), the total up-front costs of converting from a Disability Award system back to a monthly Disability Pension system would be zero.

From where else would this $7B figure come from?  Health care benefits would remain the same; if you were entitled to hearing aids before the switch, you'd still be entitled to hearing aids afterwards. If you got VIP before, you'd get VIP after.

Offline reveng

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #273 on: October 07, 2015, 12:53:56 »
Or anyone else's, for that matter.

Thankfully I saw through the pledge and it did not sway my vote. I'd use such a benefit were it available in the near future, but I refuse to waste my vote on a false promise from someone I have absolutely no respect for. We see how politicians treat the military, so to expect that attitude to change upon transition to "veteran" status is probably delusional. I'm sure elements of our political class would favour educating migrants before ever footing the bill for me based on my military service.

I definitely got into the wrong field though! The base salary for an MP doubles what I make in a year, and they don't even have to deliver on what they promise. I don't think I'd ever get an immediate PER if I never delivered for my boss...

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Re: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« Reply #274 on: October 07, 2015, 15:48:40 »
I heard a quite unsubstantiated opinion that to reverse the NVC, particularly the life time pensions, would cost on the order of 7BN ....
.... Unless I've overlooked something (and it's entirely possible that I may have), the total up-front costs of converting from a Disability Award system back to a monthly Disability Pension system would be zero ....
Well, we at least now have an approximate size for the beaten zone  ;D
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