Author Topic: Nimrod Replacement  (Read 14996 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tomahawk6

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 104,665
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,526
Nimrod Replacement
« on: September 20, 2015, 14:40:47 »
MoD needs a sub hunter to replace the Nimrod.The Fool has an interesting article about possible contenders.The unmanned choice is one I like - the Triton.For those that insist on a manned aircraft one possiblity is a modified C-130J as sub hunter.

The Triton option:
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/08/21/northrop-grumman-wins-mq-4c-triton-uav-contract.aspx

The rest:
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/09/20/as-russian-subs-encroach-britain-seeks-sub-hunter.aspx?source=eogyholnk0000001

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2015, 18:58:22 »
Without even reading the article I will say any...ANY...MPA platform should be a manned platform.  If you want to use UAV as a add-on/force multiplier, whatever buzz word fits this week, great.  But if you only have ONE maritime FW ASW/ASuW platform it has to be a manned one.  No RPA/UAV/drone, regardless of the sensor array, will have the SA you get from being there yourself bouncing over the sea state. 

My other comment before reading the articles;  I hope the RAF doesn't go down the same road and make the same mistake the US Navy has with the P-8 and opt out of a MAD system.  And, despite the articles and the song-singing of how great the P-8 is, not having a MAD is a huge, huge mistake.  MAD and a modern acoustics system are both required to conduct ASW for MPAs, full stop.  Not just those 2 sensors, but there is a need for both.

That's my :2c: having flown on nuc and diesel boats from...various NATO and non-NATO countries.  Manned MPA with a MAD. 
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline tomahawk6

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 104,665
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,526
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2015, 19:20:38 »
I agree that a manned system has advantages.I found this discussion about the P8 vs the P-3.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/112747/

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2015, 19:36:50 »
Okay, after reading the article I'll deal with this first.

"This is proving a troubling trend in England, which retired its last sub-hunting Nimrod aircraft five years ago, and has yet to name a replacement. With near-zero sub-hunting capability today, the same Britannia that once "ruled the waves" is now blind to what's going on beneath them."

 :facepalm:  'nuff said on that.  The Nimrod wasn't and isn't the only tool in that toolbelt.  The Astute class is one of the most modern SSNs out there today. 

My opinion, forget the C295 (and the CASA 235 while we're at it).  Too slow, not enough weapons and search stores and adding weapons to the Wings, even a basic weapons load of 2 fish, will slow the plane down.  I'd like to see their actual ASW version real-life stat's for endurance etc.  No mention of an acoustic system and search stores = MAD only.  Maybe an 'all grown up' version of the plane would have enough fuel tanks to conduct ASW using MAD only, but that lil fella just won't do it.  Weapons on wings at high transit alt's; the 295 site lists the max speed of 260kts.  That would be slower with fish on the wings.  You might not be able to fly that high with fish on the wings to start.  Kill stores on the wings at low level in cold temps = *problems* IMO.  A temp-controlled bomb bay is better.

I'd be interested to see the modified J model.  It would have the endurance, range, speed and lift cap's and I'm a guy who likes 3 or 4 fans turning, especially at 100' above the deck doing 200 knots.  I'd really like to see how they would arrange the necessary crew stations, avionics, sensors, search and kill stores a modern MPA *should* have. 

Nothing else on the page is worth the look IMO, for a single platform replacement of the Nimrod/Nimrod-like cap's.
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 144,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,254
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2015, 19:41:16 »
Maybe they will put the kill stores on the ramp and eject them that way? That would be a hell of a show for the backend crew!

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2015, 19:56:36 »
I agree that a manned system has advantages.

The only thing a UAV might have is a very long flight time.  However, that's assuming the AUV can even operate as ASW altitudes (I don't see how they could and would have to see it to believe it.  What is a Triton's ability to shed ice I wonder?)  A UAV will have the square root of zero level of SA at ASW altitudes.  What would its revisit time be to a datum?  So many questions.   ;D

FWIW, the old CP-107 Argus had a longer flight time than most long flight time UAVs, could carry a crap ton of kill stores and fly in pretty much any weather.  She was built way back in the stone ages of the late 50s.  She'd be a better MPA today than any UAV would be, IMO.

Quote
I found this discussion about the P8 vs the P-3  http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/112747/

I glanced at the it.  I stopped taking it seriously when someone quoted Wikipedia as a source.   ^-^   

MAD.  You need MAD. 
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2015, 20:03:39 »
Maybe they will put the kill stores on the ramp and eject them that way? That would be a hell of a show for the backend crew!

That would be...interesting...ya I'll use that word.  I kinda like it the way it is now;  no wind, no cold.  No way to fall out.   ^-^

The Canadian version would be an old wooden cart, with a stop-rope on it so we could run and push it but still be able to use it over and over after we dumped the torp off the end of the ramp...

Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 15,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,309
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2015, 22:03:12 »
Based on the performance of our ASW suite; I'd be willing to give up MAD.

That being said we really do have an ASW system that is by far better than the one on the USN P8.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 04:18:52 by Dolphin_Hunter »

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 217,155
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,770
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2015, 22:10:49 »
That would be...interesting...ya I'll use that word.  I kinda like it the way it is now;  no wind, no cold.  No way to fall out.   ^-^

The C

Falling out of the back of an airplane is a really neat way to get to work.

Mods, sorry for the sidetrack, but it had to be said.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2015, 07:07:54 »
Based on the performance of our ASW suite; I'd be willing to give up MAD.

That being said we really do have an ASW system that is by far better than the one on the USN P8.

Have a chat with D.O. next week about DM.  Was interesting. 
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2015, 07:47:38 »
Falling out of the back of an airplane is a really neat way to get to work.

Mods, sorry for the sidetrack, but it had to be said.

It would be neat for the split second between falling and hitting the surface.  Then the fun would stop.   ;D
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 138,905
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,592
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2015, 08:33:14 »
I don't think Old Sweat realizes the altitude at which ASW flying is carried out ... usually expressed in centimetres over sea level, not in thousand of metres.  ;D

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 217,155
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,770
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2015, 08:41:31 »
I don't think Old Sweat realizes the altitude at which ASW flying is carried out ... usually expressed in centimetres over sea level, not in thousand of metres.  ;D

I wasn't talking about "falling" out of the back of an ASW aircraft.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 138,905
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,592
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2015, 13:36:19 »
But you were replying to Eye in the Sky, who was.

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 217,155
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,770
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2015, 14:53:37 »
Indeed, I should have been clearer, or taken a golden opportunity to keep my fingers off the keys.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2015, 14:57:41 »
Having had the pleasure of both jumping out of and landing in a Herc before, nowadays I prefer the latter.   ;D

I guess I have come to love my knees, back and a well-made "NATO-special" too much as I get closer to that CRA date...
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline S.M.A.

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 132,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,530
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2015, 11:57:21 »
Please stay tuned for the British PM's official statement later:

Guardian

Quote
Defence review: Cameron to announce new UK reconnaissance planes

Ewen MacAskill and Richard Norton-Taylor

Friday 20 November 2015 18.25 GMT
Last modified on Saturday 21 November 2015 00.09 GMT

A gaping hole in UK defences exposed by Russian planes and submarines over the last two years is to be plugged with the purchase of new reconnaissance planes, David Cameron will announce in the Commons.

The new planes are an admission that the government made a serious blunder in the budget-crunching 2010 review when it scrapped Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft that provided cover in the North Sea and elsewhere round the UK.

There was major embarrassment for the UK last year when the Ministry of Defence had to seek the help of the US, France and Canada to try to find a Russian submarine spotted off the west coast of Scotland, possibly tracking UK nuclear submarine movements from the Clyde.

(...SNIPPED)
Our Country
--------------------------------
"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
-------------------------------------------
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline winnipegoo7

  • Member
  • ****
  • 9,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 227
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2015, 12:40:18 »
Just a guess, but my money is on the P-8.

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 204,670
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,611
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2015, 13:54:13 »
Please stay tuned for the British PM's official statement later:

Guardian


Maybe the decision wasn't all bad.  It allows the RAF to unhook from the Nimrod and the British aerospace industry that was supporting it at exorbitant cost - (The Nimrods were the last flying remnants of the old DeHavilland Comet).
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2015, 14:02:07 »
Ha, and here I thought this might be referencing the Labour Party Leader, Jeremy Corbyn, a "Nimrod" if ever there was one.

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 69,825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,374
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2015, 14:53:13 »
Versions of both Bombardier Q400 and Challeger have been pitched for UK maritime role:

Quote
Bombardier Mods and Maritime Patrol, UK Section (Canada?)
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2014/05/30/mark-collins-bombardier-mods-and-maritime-patrol-uk-section-canada/

Boeing Teams with Bombardier [and Field Aviation] on New Maritime Patrol Plane, Part 4
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2014/06/30/mark-collins-boeing-teams-with-bombardier-and-field-aviation-on-new-maritime-patrol-plane-part-4/

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2015, 15:05:57 »
I do remember the Nimrod aircraft and crew that were lost at the Toronto Airshow in 1995.  They were in Shearwater the week before and put on an amazing display.  I was looking after the static display security of the F-117 and was standing with the pilot when the Nimrod arrived overhead on the Friday afternoon before the show.  It was usual for all incoming aircraft to strut their stuff for their peers before coming down to roost for the night.

The Nimrod crew were throwing her all over the sky.  It was eye goggling and mind boggling to watch.  The F-117 driver exclaimed that the Nimrod pilot must think he's in a fighter with all the steep banks and turns.  They flew over the next two days and thrilled the crowds with their display.  We were all shocked and gutted the following week when they all lost at Toronto.  I won't forget them anytime soon this side of senility.   :salute: 

Offline suffolkowner

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 11,910
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 325

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2015, 13:00:02 »
She's a purdy girl on the inside for sure.  Glad the RAF is getting back in the game.  I heard 9 tails. 
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline OTR1

  • Member
  • ****
  • 1,665
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 125
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2015, 13:05:01 »

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 136,985
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,236
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2015, 14:58:25 »
Be nice if they got some for us at the same time to compliment our Aurora fleet.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2015, 17:53:21 »
Won't happen; CMA was 'put on hold' for the time being.  That's what resulted in the decision to 'modernize' 14 instead of 10.
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline S.M.A.

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 132,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,530
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2015, 18:20:01 »
Just a guess, but my money is on the P-8.

More on the official statement of the P8 acquisition:

PM pledges £178 billion investment in defence kit

UK Prime Minister's Office

Quote
23 November 2015

The Prime Minister will announce a £178 billion investment in defence equipment and support over the next decade when he unveils the government’s 5 year National Security Strategy and Strategic Defence and Security Review in the House of Commons later today. ...

Nine new Boeing P8 maritime patrol aircraft for maritime surveillance, anti-submarine and anti-surface ship warfare will increase further the protection of our nuclear deterrent and our new aircraft carriers. ...

We will be extending the life of our multirole Typhoon for 10 extra years through to 2040, meaning we will be able to create 2 additional squadrons. This will give us a total of frontline 7 squadrons, consisting of around 12 aircraft per squadron. ...

"Our national security depends on our economic security, and vice versa. So the first step in our National Security Strategy is to ensure our economy is, and remains, strong. ...

By sticking to our long-term economic plan, Britain has become the fastest growing major advanced economy in the world for the last 2 years. Our renewed economic security means we can afford to invest further in our national security."
Our Country
--------------------------------
"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
-------------------------------------------
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 168,710
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,970
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2015, 20:37:58 »
....so, return of Fincastle?

 :cheers:
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2015, 21:31:07 »
Bring that on!!!

Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 69,825
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,374
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2017, 15:23:04 »
P-8A coop--note Norway near end:

Quote
Britain, US Pledge to Improve Cooperation in Maritime Patrol Operations

Britain and the US have pledged to work closer together on P-8A maritime patrol aircraft operations in the North Atlantic, the two nations announced Thursday.

A declaration to better coordinate maritime patrol aircraft operations and support in the region was signed in London by British Defence Procurement Minister Harriett Baldwin and her US  counterpart, Deputy Secretary of Defense Bob Work. It is only a declaration of intent at the moment.

A statement issued by the two officials said they “plan to cooperate closely on operation of their P-8A aircraft in the North Atlantic to ensure a coherent approach to MPA activity.”

“The declaration provides a new opportunity to maximize value for money for the taxpayer and continue to strengthen U.K.-U.S. interoperability and to pursue efficiencies in operations and support, including at RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland, [the British   P-8A base],” according to the statement.

"The United States is our pre-eminent ally in global defense and collective security. This declaration is further evidence of how our two countries continue to cooperate and build mutual security, particularly in the North Atlantic region,” Baldwin was quoted as saying in the statement.

The announcement of closer engagement by the two nations in the North Atlantic comes just ahead of Friday's visit to Washington by British Prime Minister Theresa May for her meeting with the new US president, Donald Trump...

Britain is buying nine of the Boeing-built patrol jets with the first aircraft scheduled to arrive in 2019.

The British are rebuilding their fleet of maritime patrol aircraft  after axing the capability in 2010. In recent years, they have increasingly had to rely on the US and other NATO allies to help search for rising numbers of Russian submarines said to be watching for Royal Navy ballistic missile boats exiting from the naval base at Faslane, Scotland [including an RCAF Aurora in Nov. 2015 http://globalnews.ca/news/2358408/canadian-aircraft-helping-britain-hunt-for-russian-sub-spotted-near-scotland/ ].     

The move closer on North Atlantic surveillance is part of an expanding effort to counter a growing Russian submarine threat said by analysts and others to be approaching Cold War levels.

The increase in North Atlantic cooperation is not just confined to the UK and US either. Late last year, Norway and Britain signed an agreement to work closer on training and sharing P-8A capabilities. The Nordic nation last year announced it was buying five of the jets to replace its aging Lockheed Martin P-3Cs [emphasis added].

Earlier this month, Defense News reported that top officials from the three nations were seeking to reenergize a maritime surveillance alliance that had faded since the end of the Cold War...     
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/britain-us-pledge-to-improve-cooperation-in-maritime-patrol-operations

Mark
Ottawa

Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 214,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,606
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Nimrod Replacement
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2017, 16:37:25 »
2019 for the first tail...still time for some good TDs!
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.