Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 736553 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Technoviking

    DANCE TO THE TECHNOVIKING.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 187,981
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,090
  • OBEY!
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2475 on: April 05, 2019, 08:09:12 »
Great. That will officially consign our air force to 3rd world status... oh, wait... 4th world :)

I know what you mean, but technically incorrect
1st World is "the West"
2nd World is "the East", formerly the Soviet bloc, but today could include Russia, China, etc.
3rd World is the non-aligned world

I think the correct term would be 4th rate  :P

So, there I was....

Online kev994

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Member
  • *
  • 3,430
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 213
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2476 on: April 05, 2019, 11:57:34 »
But hey, we got beards and ribbons b

Online MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 74,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,651
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2477 on: April 15, 2019, 13:16:39 »
And when will see actual IOC for the planes? Second part of piece is basically pro-Gripen E propaganda but note part about Russian A2/AD:

Quote
Canada's fighter jet tender competition (finally) takes off next month
Attempts to replace 3-decade-old CF-18s began in 2010, but have been mired in politics

The politically charged competition to replace Canada's aging fleet of fighter jets will rocket forward at the end of May as the federal government releases a long-anticipated, full-fledged tender call.

There are four companies in the running: Saab of Sweden, Airbus Defence and Space out of Britain, and the American firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

Once the request for proposals is released, the manufacturers will have until the end of the year to submit bids [emphasis added, i.e. after the election], defence and industry sources told CBC News.

It was the former Conservative government that kicked off the effort to replace the three-decade-old CF-18s in 2010, an attempt that was shot down in a dispute over the way the F-35 fighter was selected.

The program became mired in politics when the Liberals promised during the 2015 election campaign not to buy the stealth jet. A final decision will now have to wait until after this fall's election...

There has been a rigorous political and academic debate about whether Canada should choose a legacy design from the 1990s, such as the Gripen, or the recently introduced Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighter.

The notion that stealth fighters are needed for conflicts with countries like Russia — countries that have advanced air defence systems — was partly dismissed by the Swedish Defence Research Agency in a recent report.

Russia's anti-access/areas-denial weapons (known as A2/AD) are not all they're cracked up to be, said the report released last month, which looked at the use of such systems in the Syria conflict.

"Much has in recent years been made of Russia's new capabilities and the impact they might have on the ability of NATO member states to reinforce or defend the vulnerable Baltic states in case of crisis or war," said the report.

"On closer inspection, however, Russia's capabilities are not quite as daunting, especially if potential countermeasures are factored in."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/SOMNIA-1.5096811

Mark
Ottawa

Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 38,515
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,668
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2478 on: April 15, 2019, 13:35:13 »
I feel like they have all the information they need to do this in 6 months not 1 year
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline YZT580

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 26,045
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 765
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2479 on: April 15, 2019, 13:41:41 »
It isn't Procurement, it is the manufacturers who have to have the time to put together an offer that is compliant with the requirements of the competition.  Once the previous procurement agreement was scuttled it was back to square one for everybody and that takes time.  Besides it takes the entire issue out of the election. 

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 209,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,786
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2480 on: April 15, 2019, 15:53:18 »
Assuming the manufacturers are interested in investing the time, money and aggravation necessary to submit a bid for 60 to 80 aircraft to a country that has a track record of tearing up contracts.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

Offline Czech_pivo

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 4,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 274
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2481 on: April 15, 2019, 15:58:15 »
Assuming the manufacturers are interested in investing the time, money and aggravation necessary to submit a bid for 60 to 80 aircraft to a country that has a track record of tearing up contracts.

Since we've contracted our AOR requirements previously to both Spain and Chile, why don't we just do the same with our NORAD and NATO obligations and pay the USAF to take over these responsibilities.  If it makes anyone happy, we can put our roundel on the planes.....

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 38,515
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,668
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2482 on: April 15, 2019, 15:59:07 »
Assuming the manufacturers are interested in investing the time, money and aggravation necessary to submit a bid for 60 to 80 aircraft to a country that has a track record of tearing up contracts.

Time will tell but im willing to bet the RFP will be written in a way to not include the F35 or make some other craft seem the favourite
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 195,910
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,752
  • Freespeecher
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2483 on: April 15, 2019, 16:17:13 »
At the rate decision making is happening it may be more beneficial to go into the USAF's "6th Generation" fighter program. At least this way we will be getting fresh, new airframes...
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline reverse_eng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 58,550
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,487
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2484 on: April 15, 2019, 16:47:08 »
We will probably pick up used F-35 once everyone else switches to hypersonic UCAVs.

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 923,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,212
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2485 on: April 20, 2019, 20:26:05 »
Found a pretty in depth Reddit post breaking down the specs of each aircraft in the CAF's fighter replacement program. Keep in mind the Rafale has been pulled by Dassault, so those numbers are useless for the discussion:

https://www.reddit.com/r/F35Lightning/comments/5fv9he/combat_radius_of_western_multirole_fighters/

Offline Iron 1

  • Guest
  • *
  • 240
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2486 on: April 21, 2019, 19:12:33 »
Found a pretty in depth Reddit post breaking down the specs of each aircraft in the CAF's fighter replacement program. Keep in mind the Rafale has been pulled by Dassault, so those numbers are useless for the discussion:

https://www.reddit.com/r/F35Lightning/comments/5fv9he/combat_radius_of_western_multirole_fighters/
And from a brief review of this data set it is pretty apparent that the SAAB machine is essentially useless for our purposes.
Which leads me to believe that it will probably be chosen...the recent CBC article seems to think it's the way to go.
But hey? Bombardier can build it in Cartierville. Don't let the door hit you on your arse on the way out Justin!
Woe Canada!

Online MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 74,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,651
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2487 on: April 21, 2019, 19:40:28 »
Everything you might want to know about earlier generation Gripens (from a biased source):

Quote
Flying & Fighting in the Gripen: Interview with a Swedish Air Force pilot


Lieutenant Mikael Grev flew the Saab JAS-39 Gripen fighter in the Swedish air force, including wartime missions over Libya. Here he describes flying and fighting in this potent bantam weight machine, training against the F-16 and F/A-18, and how it would have handled Russia’s infamous Su-27 ‘Flanker’...
https://hushkit.net/2019/04/15/flying-fighting-in-the-gripen-interview-with-a-swedish-air-force-pilot/

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 209,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,786
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2488 on: April 21, 2019, 20:17:09 »
https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/canada/sweden

Canada is about 22 times bigger than Sweden.  It would run from the 49th to 60 and fit between Calgary and Medicine Hat.  About two or three times the size of Cold Lake. 

With the Russians coming from east of Medicine Hat.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

Online SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 84,495
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,869
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2489 on: April 21, 2019, 20:20:22 »
Fuel was incompatible at a NATO base?  Sounds like a major deficiency for the Grippen...

Offline suffolkowner

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 12,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 346
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2490 on: April 21, 2019, 20:38:42 »
Fuel was incompatible at a NATO base?  Sounds like a major deficiency for the Grippen...

I haven't read the article but I believe they were used to running JP1 and JP5 was available for the Libya campaign. Not sure what the difference is and how easy it is to switch. Strange though because is the Gripen not running the same engine as the Hornets?

Online SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 84,495
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,869
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2491 on: April 21, 2019, 20:51:26 »
Both JP8 and JP5 was available during OUP.  Sig, being a Navy base, probably stocks JP5. You can use different types of fuel but it is generally limited in how long you can use different fuel unless you change the fuel control unit to a different type of fuel (the 404s have that option).

Offline Quirky

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 7,955
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 281
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2492 on: April 21, 2019, 23:20:27 »
Both JP8 and JP5 was available during OUP.  Sig, being a Navy base, probably stocks JP5. You can use different types of fuel but it is generally limited in how long you can use different fuel unless you change the fuel control unit to a different type of fuel (the 404s have that option).

If I remember correctly, there are no MFC adjustments required for JP8 to JP5 anymore. There are generally more issues changing MFC settings than just leaving it alone.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 218,565
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,252
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2493 on: April 22, 2019, 09:27:20 »
JP8 or JP8+100?  I thought all aircraft using JP8 were using +100 these days, leaving straight JP8 to vehicles only?

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 923,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,212
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2494 on: April 23, 2019, 22:03:50 »
Looks like Gripen's only selling feature (technology transfer) has a competitor. LM is offering Japan access to the F35 software to sweeten the deal.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27601/lockheed-offers-japan-access-to-f-35-code-as-part-of-stealth-fighter-proposal-report

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 145,580
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,648
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2495 on: April 24, 2019, 16:45:00 »

Offline Retired AF Guy

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 52,175
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,765
"Leave one wolf alive, and the sheep are never safe."

Arya Stark

Online MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 74,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 6,651
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2497 on: April 27, 2019, 21:24:56 »
"...
Finn says officials won't have a real handle on when the first new fighters can be delivered until the winning company is picked and the two sides can hammer out the details..."

Translation: until the industrial benefits, whatever they are, are sorted out. F-35 problem: no such benefits permitted for program members, of which we are one.  FMS route and Canadian companies then lose any future contracts for a couple of thousand planes? What's a poor, dilatory, PM (who cares zip about defence) to do? And after the October election, whoever wins?

FUBAR:

Quote
Feds facing short runway on fighter jets amid new questions about schedule
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-facing-short-runway-on-fighter-jets-amid-new-questions-about-schedule-1.4396916

Finns and Swiss will have Hornet replacements in service long before RCAF:
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/01/industry-bids-are-in-for-finlands-13-billion-fighter-race/

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-04-13/switzerland-starts-new-round-fighter-trials

Mark
Ottawa

Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 220,285
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,865
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2498 on: May 06, 2019, 15:52:25 »
This Canadian Press story suggests that the plan for an open competition may violate the terms of our participation in the F35 program. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable this this superannuated soldier will comment on this.

OTTAWA — U.S. officials have warned the Trudeau government that its plan to hold an open competition to replace its aging CF-18s is incompatible with Canada's obligations as a member of the F-35 stealth-fighter program.

The warnings are in two letters sent to the government last year that were obtained by defence analyst Richard Shimooka and released in a report published by the Macdonald-Laurier Institute think-tank.

The letters specifically take issue with the government's plan to have each fighter-jet maker commit to re-investing in Canada if its aircraft wins the upcoming competition aimed at buying 88 new planes for $19 billion.

While that is standard for most Canadian military procurements, the U.S. officials note that Canada agreed not to apply such a requirement when it signed on as one of nine F-35 partner countries in 2006.

Companies in those countries are instead allowed to compete for work associated with the plane, and the U.S. officials say imposing requirements as a condition to bid will mean the F-35 won't be entered in the race.

Canada has contributed roughly $500 million over the past 20 years toward developing the F-35, which now is expected to compete against three other aircraft to replace the CF-18s.

Offline Uzlu

  • Member
  • ****
  • 3,240
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 204
Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2499 on: May 06, 2019, 16:20:35 »
Quote
the U.S. officials say imposing requirements as a condition to bid will mean the F-35 won’t be entered in the race.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ottawas-planned-competition-to-replace-aging-fighter-jets-is/

Trudeau probably wants it to play out like this.