Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 870836 times)

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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2600 on: July 31, 2019, 18:38:04 »
F-35's coming for a visit

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/204893/f_35-returns-to-canada-this-fall-as-fighter-jet-makers-jockey-for-position.html

No.  The USAF F-35 Demonstration team is coming for a demo.  This was planned about a year and a half ago.

Offline Spencer100

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2601 on: July 31, 2019, 21:10:25 »
No.  The USAF F-35 Demonstration team is coming for a demo.  This was planned about a year and a half ago.

And it has nothing to do with marketing the plane?  Right! 

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2602 on: July 31, 2019, 21:37:23 »
And it has nothing to do with marketing the plane?  Right!

Right.

The RAF Red Arrows will be touring around North America, I wonder what their agenda is?

How about our CF-18 demo team? 

It’s nothing more than a demo squad showing off their bird.  Maybe some of us want to see the latest and greatest.  As much as I love antiques, it’s always nice to see something new flying around. 

Why does everything have to be so political?


Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2603 on: July 31, 2019, 22:15:39 »
And it has nothing to do with marketing the plane?  Right!

The F-22 came to Cold Lake last year.  Does that mean they are “marketing” the plane?

Offline dapaterson

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2604 on: July 31, 2019, 22:51:54 »
The F-22 came to Cold Lake last year.  Does that mean they are “marketing” the plane?
Hopefully...
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2605 on: July 31, 2019, 22:57:58 »
Hopefully...

They have no intentions of selling that to another country.  I wish.
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Offline Spencer100

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2606 on: August 01, 2019, 08:25:25 »
Right.

The RAF Red Arrows will be touring around North America, I wonder what their agenda is?

How about our CF-18 demo team? 

It’s nothing more than a demo squad showing off their bird.  Maybe some of us want to see the latest and greatest.  As much as I love antiques, it’s always nice to see something new flying around. 

Why does everything have to be so political?


Well it is very political...sorry it just is.

Plus those examples are very much marketing too  The Snowbirds are pure marketing for  the CAF and RCAF  to public and for recruiting.  Showing the taxpayer what they get.   One of my friends was a Snowbird and his job was PR and marketing when not flying.   The Red Arrows market the Global Great Britain brand and the RAF.

Sorry to argue but I'm a little jaded.  Most things modern life are "marketing"  I as a do anything my first thought is "who is market for?"  "who's paying for it?"

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2607 on: August 01, 2019, 08:30:06 »
Well it is very political...sorry it just is.

Plus those examples are very much marketing too  The Snowbirds are pure marketing for  the CAF and RCAF  to public and for recruiting.  Showing the taxpayer what they get.   One of my friends was a Snowbird and his job was PR and marketing when not flying.   The Red Arrows market the Global Great Britain brand and the RAF.

Sorry to argue but I'm a little jaded.  Most things modern life are "marketing"  I as a do anything my first thought is "who is market for?"  "who's paying for it?"
Big Snowbird fan here. Rumint is Tutors  are to be retired in next 5 years.  Zoomies: Would the Hawks be able to be a demo Sqn?


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Offline BillN

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2608 on: August 01, 2019, 09:06:39 »
The RAF Red Arrows have been using Hawks for years, so the Snowbirds should have no issues using them.

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2609 on: August 01, 2019, 09:09:08 »
The RAF Red Arrows have been using Hawks for years, so the Snowbirds should have no issues using them.
Ah yes. Good to know. Thanks.


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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2610 on: August 01, 2019, 17:09:29 »
The RAF Red Arrows have been using Hawks for years, so the Snowbirds should have no issues using them.

Plus, the RCAF has been using the CT-115 Hawk as its basic jet trainer for a number of years.
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Offline Spencer100

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2611 on: August 01, 2019, 20:47:23 »
Plus, the RCAF has been using the CT-115 Hawk as its basic jet trainer for a number of years.

We would have to buy new ones.  We only have 18? Or so at NATO training and the other school.  Need about that for the snowbirds.  And if we have to buy new we have to a bid competition so that will take 10 plus years. 

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2612 on: August 01, 2019, 21:02:09 »
We would have to buy new ones.  We only have 18? Or so at NATO training and the other school.  Need about that for the snowbirds.  And if we have to buy new we have to a bid competition so that will take 10 plus years.

We, the CAF, do not own the Hawks or the Harvard II.  They are owned by CAE.  And they are beat up.  Some airframes have more than 13,000 hrs of air time.  That is more than some Tutors!!!

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2613 on: August 01, 2019, 21:05:47 »
Note this:

Quote
PARIS: Leonardo on target with M-345 trainer
...
Although Rome is the sole customer for the M-345 to date, Leonardo is pursuing several campaigns with the type, including Canada and Spain, as well as undisclosed countries in Africa.

Madrid could acquire as many as 35 examples, as it replaces its fleet of 64 CASA C-101s, while Ottawa's Future Aircrew Training programme is seeking a successor to its 18 BAE Systems Hawk 115s in the 2023-2024 timeframe.

In addition, Leonardo intends to develop an armed variant of the M-345 once the trainer is qualified.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/paris-leonardo-on-target-with-m-345-trainer-459005/

And this from gov't on new trainer program, various services plus planes:

Quote
Future Aircrew Training


https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/air/snac-nfps/fpna_infograp-fact_infograph-eng.html

More:
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/air/snac-nfps/ffpn-fact-eng.html

Plus:

Quote
Leonardo promotes the M-345 for the Canadian aerobatic team Snowbirds
https://www.blogbeforeflight.net/2019/05/leonardo-promotes-m-345-for-canadian-aerobatic-team-snowbirds.html

This recently from Dimsum on FAcT:
https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,130837.msg1578139.html#msg1578139

Mark
Ottawa



« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 21:39:58 by MarkOttawa »
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Offline Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2614 on: August 02, 2019, 00:43:26 »
Big Snowbird fan here. Rumint is Tutors  are to be retired in next 5 years.  Zoomies: Would the Hawks be able to be a demo Sqn?


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The tutors are set to retire in 2030. Once this fighter jet replacement circus gets sorted out the snowbirds are next in the zoom zoom world.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2615 on: August 02, 2019, 07:29:31 »
The tutors are set to retire in 2030. Once this fighter jet replacement circus gets sorted out the snowbirds are next in the zoom zoom world.

Assuming you don’t consider the Challengers to be ‘zoom zoom’... ;)

Regards
G2G

Offline CloudCover

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2616 on: August 02, 2019, 08:12:54 »
Seriously G2G, it wouldn’t surprise me if this gov actually thinks that sock puppet shuttles are a “Canada’s Back” display of precision military flying that no child should miss.
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Offline Spencer100

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2617 on: August 02, 2019, 08:26:15 »
The snowbird's are most likely done after the Tutors are retired.  I would say the best is a smaller Harvard (or similar trainer) team.  I could see a flight of five part time.   

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2618 on: August 02, 2019, 08:44:28 »
The snowbird's are most likely done after the Tutors are retired.  I would say the best is a smaller Harvard (or similar trainer) team.  I could see a flight of five part time.
My hunch is a hard no on standing down Snowbirds.


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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2619 on: August 02, 2019, 09:28:40 »
The snowbird's are most likely done after the Tutors are retired.  I would say the best is a smaller Harvard (or similar trainer) team.  I could see a flight of five part time.

I don't think so, unless you have some inside info you can't share.

They have gone through this before. G2G might be able to shine some light on the inner workings of the RCAF and the Snowbirds.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2620 on: August 02, 2019, 20:02:25 »
I don't think so, unless you have some inside info you can't share.

They have gone through this before. G2G might be able to shine some light on the inner workings of the RCAF and the Snowbirds.

Mr. Seggie, not as tied in as I once was, but the Snowbirds steeds have been steadily diverging from a reasonably supportable platform for decades and it's only a matter of time before SARP (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-defence-acquisition-guide-2016/aerospace-systems-347.page) or son-of-SARP and their mantra of "must be interchangeable with the training fleet" becomes indeterminate, because the training fleet will be supplied by a civilian consortium and as yet unknown.  The RCAF has (not so) secretly wished for the KAI T-50 Golden Eagle to become the F-35's lead-in fighter (Korean Aerospace worked hand in hand with Lockheed during the development of the T-50) and then it would order 'a few more' T-50s for the SBs, paint them red and white, and "Presto!" new Snowbird aircraft...

For the Defence Acquisition Guide - 2016 plan below, is no more (at least publicly). 

Quote
Snowbird Aircraft Replacement Project

Replace Existing Systems with Newer or Different System

Objective

To satisfy the requirement to provide the mandated Government of Canada aerobatic air demonstration capability to Canadian and North American audiences.

Requirements

This project will continue the proud tradition of Canada’s Snowbirds as an air display capability and a key recruitment tool for the Canadian Armed Forces. Snowbird Aircraft Replacement Project (SARP) is linked to the CT-114 Life Extension Beyond 2020 project and may also be linked to the solution for Future Pilot Training, which is due to replace NATO Flying Training in Canada in the 2020 period. The chosen platform must be configurable to the 431 (AD) Squadron standard, including a smoke system, luggage capability and a unique paint scheme. The platform must also be interchangeable with the training fleet to ensure the hard demands of show performances can be distributed throughout the aircraft fleet.

Preliminary Estimate

$500 million to $1.5 billion
Anticipated Timeline

2019 to 2020 Options Analysis
2022 Definition Approval
2020 to 2026 Implementation Approval
2025 Request for Proposal Release
2026 to 2036 Contract Award
2026 to 2036 Final Delivery


Now, nothing on the (public) books, and Future Aircrew Training (FAcT) in the current Defence Capabilities Blueprint has nothing noted regarding the Snowbirds.

Quote
Future Aircrew Training

Project Type - Project Replace

Objective
The project will develop and implement a relevant, cost-effective, flexible, and efficient aircrew training program to meet future aerospace requirements of the CAF.

Requirements
The project must ensure a seamless transition with existing aircrew training delivered by programs like NATO Flying Training Canada, Contracted Flying Training and Support, and the training provided by 402 Squadron. The project must deliver agile and flexible courses to meet the future needs of the CAF. Aircrew standards and control of training content will be maintained by the RCAF. The training must meet the unique challenges of the Canadian environment, exploit technical advances to maintain relevant and cost effective training, and maximize simulation and emulation to create efficiencies and provide the best value for Canada. FAcT is envisioned as an acquired service contract, though the procurement strategy has yet to be finalized.

Funding Range
$1 billion to $4.99 billion

Anticipated Timeline (Fiscal Year)
Completed Start Options Analysis
2019/2020 Start Definition
2022/2023 Start Implementation
2023/2024 Initial Delivery
2028/2029 Final Delivery

My guess?  CAE wins the FAcT award in 2022, and includes a "costed option" to the RCAF to provide an additional capability depth to cover the Snowbirds...

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Offline FSTO

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2621 on: August 03, 2019, 08:24:57 »
If the Snowbirds are that much of priority for "Canada's BACK!" Have the Liberal Party of Canada fund the goddamn things!

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2622 on: August 03, 2019, 08:53:45 »
Good2Golf: What plane(s) likely for CAE/KF Aerospace "SkyAlyne" bid for FAcT?
https://www.janes.com/article/80419/partners-target-future-training-cansec18d1

From gov't:

Quote
Future Aircrew Training Program
...
List of qualified suppliers

On December 10, 2018, Canada established a list of qualified suppliers that demonstrated their ability to meet Canada’s needs, as defined in the Invitation to Qualify.

Here is the list of qualified suppliers (in alphabetical order):

    Airbus Defence and Space
    Babcock Canada Inc.
    Leonardo Canada
    Lockheed Martin Canada Inc.
    SkyAlyne Canada Limited Partnership
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/air/snac-nfps/ffpn-fact-eng.html

Mark
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Offline BurmaShave

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2623 on: August 03, 2019, 20:15:22 »
Good2Golf: What plane(s) likely for CAE/KF Aerospace "SkyAlyne" bid for FAcT?
https://www.janes.com/article/80419/partners-target-future-training-cansec18d1

From gov't:

Mark
Ottawa

PC-21 and King Air 350 seem likely. No idea for Ph I, Ph IV/FLIT, or helo. Planes change as we juggle requirements. When the actual bidding time comes around, we'll see what they go for.

I've heard some interesting (and not the good kind of interesting) ideas from some of the players. Things like the Grob 120TP, doing FLIT on prop aircraft, and VR goggle-based sims. There was even talk of a scalable aircraft (can dial up/down the horsepower and systems for Phase I/II/II). Hopefully CAE/KF can avoid the good idea fairy, seeing as they've been delivering aircrew training for a while now and know what works.
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2624 on: August 03, 2019, 20:24:26 »
FAcT does not include FLIT which will be a different program altogether.