Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 857013 times)

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2850 on: February 12, 2020, 11:25:14 »
When Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas, the MBA culture of the latter displaced the engineering culture of the former, causing many of the current problems.  Boeing's philosophy was to do it right; McDonnell Douglas' philosophy was to do it cheap.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2851 on: February 12, 2020, 14:08:19 »
^ this...  :nod:

Back in the day, Boeing and Lockheed (up to the amazing L-1011) were the builders of choice.  MD and the post-stealth (best good enough practices) takeover state of Boeing represents much that is wrong with trying (or succeeding) to apply the MBA lens to every aspect of business.  Boeing used to stand up to its reputation: “If it ain’t Boeing, I’m not going!”  MAX MCAS is just the latest in the swirl into the drain. Not sure if Boeing can recover in the long-term.

:2c:

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G2G

Offline Baz

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2852 on: February 12, 2020, 19:14:19 »
Boeing represents much that is wrong with trying (or succeeding) to apply the MBA lens to every aspect of business.

Yet there is a drive to apply that same lens to military organizations and operations...

Offline Spencer100

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2853 on: February 13, 2020, 15:21:13 »
^ this...  :nod:

Back in the day, Boeing and Lockheed (up to the amazing L-1011) were the builders of choice.  MD and the post-stealth (best good enough practices) takeover state of Boeing represents much that is wrong with trying (or succeeding) to apply the MBA lens to every aspect of business.  Boeing used to stand up to its reputation: “If it ain’t Boeing, I’m not going!”  MAX MCAS is just the latest in the swirl into the drain. Not sure if Boeing can recover in the long-term.

:2c:

Regards

G2G


I don't know.....I think the problems are a little more focused than that.  When I look around the industrial landscape the problems I see everywhere are IT and Software driven. The Boeing MCAS problem is one born out of software.   Bringing an example closer to my work.  Tesla is company born from tech industry, Ford and GM are old manufacturers. Lets take the Tesla's autopilot they put it on the cars almost in Beta test...Ford and GM will not do that because of history of not releasing till it works (they have been sued too many times).  Tesla can get away with it updating on the fly.  Ford and GM are struggling with software.

 One. Their engineering and engineers don't understand work with and in the tech area and have problems with it same as Boeing.
 Two. Finding tech talent is very hard, even with good pay.  Good tech talent wants to work at the startup and cashout when they make it by selling to Amazon.  Even the Big 3 trying to working this by remaking their offices and moving to Cal but they can offer sexy.  Boeing can't offer sexy. Flying is not the dream anymore of the todays kids.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2854 on: February 13, 2020, 16:19:36 »
IT/embedded software no doubt has a lot to do with it, but not exclusively nor even the majority.  There are also significant elements of supply chain pressures as well, to wit the entire 737 airframe fabricated by Spirit, not even a Boeing product, and all that flows from that relationship.  :nod:

Regards
G2G

Offline dapaterson

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2855 on: February 14, 2020, 10:10:44 »
Singapore buying 4-12 F-35Bs.

https://twitter.com/TheBaseLeg/status/1228280142155452416/photo/1

"In the early days of the program, the F-35 was marred by design deficiencies and cost overruns."
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2856 on: February 16, 2020, 14:29:57 »
The Finns' actual fly-off proceeds, by a well-informed Finnish blogger:

Quote
HX Challenge pt. 4: More of Everything

Unfortunately, Finnish daily Aamulehti which so far has openly shared recordings of the main press event at the HX Challenge media events has decided to put these behind a paywall. As such, this post is based upon secondary sources (i.e. published articles). Sorry for the inconvenience, but these are the unfortunate facts. Next week we will be back to primary sources (as I will attend the Boeing briefing in person).

From the outset, the F-35 has been the aircraft to beat in HX. It isn’t impossible that it will end up beaten, but the string of successes throughout the world (marred only by the highly politicised German failure to be allowed to bid) and unique selling points makes it the gold standard in Western fighter design at the moment. As such, anyone wishing to better Lockheed Martin’s stealth fighter will have to put in some serious effort to show why their bid is better for the Finnish Defence Forces’ concept of operations.


The two F-35A’s from that eventually came over from 308th FS were described as being amongst the latest jets in use at Luke AFB, which should mean that they are of the Block 3F, i.e. ready for combat use. Source: Finnish Air Force FB/Joni Malkamäki

At least from the outside, that task hasn’t become any easier from the start of the competition. While Lockheed Martin might have seemed a bit too certain of success in the early days of the competition, this week’s media event has shown that they are listening to the customer and not just offering a copy-paste version of offers made to other countries.

Few doubt the combat capability of the F-35A. The advanced sensor suite and fusion coupled with low-observability features make it a formidable foe for anyone, and the large number of aircraft on order makes it future proof in a way none of the other contenders are. The biggest questions has been surrounding security of supply, sovereignty of data, and industrial cooperation. It is important to note that this does not mean that the Air Force is ready to buy the second best just to ensure that they will get these secondary benefits, but rather that the Air Force has judged these issues to be of crucial importance in allowing a fighter to be combat capable. As has been repeated throughout the last few years: the bids are only ranked on their overall combat capability as part of the overall Finnish defence solution.

And there’s plenty of combat capability in Lockheed Martin’s offer. While the contenders aren’t allowed to comment on the number of aircraft offered, Steve Sheehy, Lockheed Martin’s Director of Sustainment Strategies and Campaigns, appeared to accidentally disclose that it would be a case of 1-to-1 replacement of the Hornets.

    “The requirement is 64, we are at 64”*

This was later walked back to the more politically acceptable line of “‘If the requirement is for 64, we are at 64.’ Lockheed Martin will not comment publicly on the number of fighter jets in its response to the call for tenders.” Considering the fact that we have known since last autumn that 64 isn’t in fact a set requirement any longer, my personal belief is that the offer is for 64 aircraft. Make of it what you will, but a 64-ship strong F-35A force would be an impressive one by any measure. It would conceivably make Finland the seventh largest operator of the F-35 (all marks included), leaving behind Tier 2 and 3 contributors such as the Netherlands, Norway, and Denmark, as well as making the Finnish Air Force the third largest European operator after the UK and Italy (both of which will likely be operating joint F-35A/B fleets). While this might seem like a bold step, it should be remembered that when Finland bought the F/A-18C Hornet it was an order on a similar scale (the early 90’s seeing the AIM-120 equipped Hornet second only to the F-15C Eagle in the air-to-air role). As long as the aircraft can fit within the price tag, the Finnish Air Force is unlikely to shy away from capability. In fact, a serious F-35A order does hold deterrence value in and of itself, as it would highlight the determination to invest in a credible high-end defence as well as the close bilateral defence cooperation with the US.

    The next #HX candidate to participate in the #HXChallenge is Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II. Two F-35As arrived at Pirkkala Air Base tonight on 9 February. #ilmavoimat #finaf #comcamfi pic.twitter.com/ilpwfn7dSk

    — Ilmavoimat (@FinnishAirForce) February 9, 2020

Perhaps the most interesting part of the press release was the part on how Lockheed Martin plans to ensure security of supply and industrial cooperation.

Not only the aircraft, but the F135 engine as well would reportedly be produced in-country.*

This is a significant development in an area that has traditionally been viewed as a weak part of the Lockheed Martin offer, and would be a significant step away from the current production chain which is responsible for pushing the price of the aircraft down to the extent that 64 aircraft could fit inside the Finnish budget. It might look like a case of squaring the circle, but apparently Lokcheed Martin (and Pratt & Whitney) thinks the Finnish order is important enough that they are prepared to take these steps. While the F-35 has final assembly lines outside of the US (in Italy and Japan), in the case of the engine my understanding is that Pratt & Whitney doesn’t do final assembly outside of it’s two sites in the continental US. Such an offer would by it’s very nature include a rather large amount of tech transfer, and ensure Finnish industrial know-how stays up to date when it comes to maintaining and overhauling the aircraft.

Perhaps a harder thing swallow for the Finnish Air Force was the scheme drawn up for the management of spare parts. This would include peacetime stocks stored in-country for normal operations, with a different set for times of heightened tensions being stored internationally and transferred to Finland when needed. While this kind of centralised spare hubs likely play a significant role in ensuring a low operating cost, not having complete control over the necessary wartime spares will likely be a no-go. However, it is important to remember that this second offer currently being referenced by Lockheed Martin isn’t the same as their best and final offer, which will come only after the approximately six months of negotiations with the Finnish MoD and Defence Forces that are now starting. Lockheed Martin also acknowledges that the sizes of both the in-country and the international stocks aren’t locked, but are currently being discussed. It does however feel that this is one area where the company’s normal ‘tailored for NATO’-options still clashes with the Finnish thinking surrounding wartime operations.

The stealth capability is the defining feature that sets the aircraft apart from the rest of the competition...[read on]
https://corporalfrisk.com/2020/02/16/hx-challenge-pt-4-more-of-everything/

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2857 on: February 17, 2020, 11:20:59 »
So this is how the grown ups buy aircraft?

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2858 on: February 21, 2020, 16:06:08 »
The Finns' actual fly-off proceeds, by a well-informed Finnish blogger:

Mark
Ottawa

And now Super Hornet and Growler pitched by Boeing for Finland's new fighter, by the same Finnish blogger (I don't believe Growler is part of our competition):

Quote
HX Challenge pt. 5: Bigger, Better, Stronger
https://wordpress.com/read/feeds/48471877/posts/2597903006

Mark
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2859 on: February 21, 2020, 16:23:35 »
It might not be but Boeing could offer it on the side
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2860 on: February 25, 2020, 11:20:26 »
Public Services and Procurement Canada:  Industry says they need a weeeeeee bit more time ...
Quote
The Government of Canada is committed to providing members of the Royal Canadian Air Force with the fighter aircraft they need to do their jobs, and ensuring the best possible value for Canadians.

At the request of industry, the March 30 deadline for preliminary proposals for the Future Fighter Capability Project has been extended. Eligible suppliers now have until June 30, 2020 to complete and submit their proposals.

This extension supports our commitment to conduct an open, fair, and transparent competition. Procurements of this magnitude are complex, and submission of a good proposal is important for suppliers and for Canada. This extension allows eligible suppliers to address recent feedback on their security offers, ensuring that Canada receives competitive proposals that meet its technical, cost and economic benefits requirements.

Quotes

“The government set out an aggressive timeline to implement this very complex, high-value procurement, and while we understand the importance of this procurement for our women and men in uniform, our focus is on moving the process forward as quickly as we can, while ensuring that all bidders have the time they need to put forward their best proposal.”

The Honourable Anita Anand
Minister of Public Services and Procurement

“Our government is making the necessary decisions to get the best aircraft for the Royal Canadian Air Force and Canada. This extension will allow the eligible suppliers to make their best possible offer to ensure that we are able to provide the equipment our members need at a fair cost to Canadians.”

The Honourable Harjit S. Sajjan
Minister of National Defence

“Canada’s Industrial Technological Benefits policy is expected to generate high-value jobs and economic growth for Canadian aerospace and defence businesses for decades. Ensuring that all suppliers have the opportunity to put their best bid forward is important to ensure strong economic benefits are secured for Canadians.”

The Honourable Navdeep Bains
Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry

Quick facts

This is the most significant investment in the Royal Canadian Air Force in more than 30 years and is essential for protecting the safety and security of Canadians and meeting international obligations.

Officials conducted extensive engagement with Canadian aerospace and defence industries to ensure that they are well positioned to participate in the procurement.

Canada is using a phased-bid compliance process, which is an additional measure to ensure that bidders will have an opportunity to address non-compliance in their proposals related to mandatory criteria. Following evaluation of preliminary proposals, a dialogue phase may be conducted with one or more compliant bidders to reduce the risk that a proposal is eliminated due to an error or omission.

Proposals will be rigorously assessed on elements of capability (60%), cost (20%) and economic benefits (20%).

All proposals will be evaluated according to the same evaluation criteria.

Canada’s Industrial and Technological Benefits Policy, including a Value Proposition applies to this procurement. This is expected to generate high-value jobs and economic growth for Canadian aerospace and defence businesses for decades ...
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2861 on: February 25, 2020, 11:24:10 »
The delays will ensure that the RCAF will get a 5th gen fighter when the 7th gen comes on line in 2040.

 :sarcasm:
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2862 on: February 25, 2020, 11:29:46 »
The delays will ensure that the RCAF will get a 5th gen fighter when the 7th gen comes on line in 2040.

 :sarcasm:
You starry-eyed optimist, you ...
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Offline Iron 1

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2863 on: February 25, 2020, 20:05:04 »
You starry-eyed optimist, you ...
Sad but true...
If I was a millennial I'd embed the standard Metallica video here.
But I'm not.
So I won't.
But it's sad...and it's true.

And this makes me sad (not to mention frustrated).
How can this keep on being a political football, perpetually @ third and long?

This is probably SAAB admitting that their "tinker-toy" can't play with the big boys, yet rather than doing the proper thing they prefer to ask for a 3 month extension.
Just so they can come back in 3 months and admit that their tinker toy can't play with the big boys?
Seems rather ridiculous...
It's a great airplane for third world nations and others in the EU on a budget.
It's a waste of time even considering it for our needs.
Maybe I'm wrong here?
From all I've read?
I don't think so.
I send a shitload of money to Ottawa every year and I am not impressed.
Yes.
I am an Albertan.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2864 on: March 02, 2020, 19:23:25 »
Saab Forms Industry Team For Canada Fighter Bid

Quote
Four companies have joined the Saab Gripen E’s proposal for the C$15-20 billion Future Fighter Capability contract in Canada, which remains in a recently extended competitive phase.

Saab’s industrial team, which includes IMP Aerospace & Defense, CAE, Peraton Canada and GE Aviation, is the last of the three remaining bidders for the contracts to supply 88 fighters to replace the Royal Canadian Air Force’s CF-188 fleet, which is the local designation for the Boeing F/A-18A/B.

“We have assembled a dynamic roster of innovative leaders within Canada’s aerospace industry, across multiple regions to offer the best solution for Canada’s future fighter,” said Jonas Hjelm, senior vice president and head of Saab Aeronautics.

Saab is competing against the Lockheed Martin F-35A and Boeing F/A-18E/F for the Canadian order.

Industrial benefits represent 20% of the formula used by Public Works and Procurement Canada to select the contract winner. Cost is assigned the same value in the evaluation as industrial benefits, with overall capability forming the remaining 60% of the weighted criteria.

Canadian officials relaxed a previous requirement for contractors to reserve a share of the aircraft sustainment program for Canadian companies. The F-35’s international partnership disallows guaranteed industrial participation, so the concession allowed Lockheed to remain in the competition, but drove the Eurofighter Typhoon team to withdraw from the bidding process last August. Dassault previously withdrew the Rafale from the competition in November 2018.

The remaining three participants were due to submit preliminary proposals by March 31. But Canadian procurement officials on Feb. 24 said the deadline would be extended until June 30.

‘This extension will allow eligible suppliers to submit their best possible offer,” said Harjit Sajjan, Canada’s Minister of National Defense.

https://aviationweek.com/shows-events/air-warfare-symposium/saab-forms-industry-team-canada-fighter-bid
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Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2865 on: March 02, 2020, 19:56:10 »
Saab Forms Industry Team For Canada Fighter Bid

https://aviationweek.com/shows-events/air-warfare-symposium/saab-forms-industry-team-canada-fighter-bid

How ironic that the new extension falls at the exact same time as the Conservative leadership convention? How wonderful it will be for the Libs to roll out the news on the fighter replacement at the time the news will be reporting on the leadership race.
Unreal how much politics is wrapped into the whole process - the renewal, the CSC, the icebreakers, the LAV’s - it’s absolute crap.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2866 on: March 02, 2020, 19:56:51 »
Saab Forms Industry Team For Canada Fighter Bid

https://aviationweek.com/shows-events/air-warfare-symposium/saab-forms-industry-team-canada-fighter-bid

I'm no genius but it seems its "any plane but the F-35".
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2867 on: March 02, 2020, 20:00:31 »
I'm no genius but it seems its "any plane but the F-35".

If Lockheed loses with a Liberal government in power, they will bury the government in litigation for a rigged process against them. Especially since every other country that's ran a competition has had the F-35 beat out the SH and Gripen numerous times.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2868 on: March 02, 2020, 20:04:07 »
Which will tie up the procurement for some years, which is probably what the Liberals would like. The liberals do what they want, and screw everyone else except their supporters.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2869 on: March 02, 2020, 20:29:59 »
I'm no genius but it seems its "any plane but the F-35".

If Saab wins I can see a huge issue with future pilots going the fighter jet route in Moose Jaw. Nevermind the Cold Lake issues already discussed ad nausim, flying the SAAB won't sweeten the deal.
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Offline YZT580

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2870 on: March 02, 2020, 20:39:39 »
For just plain flying, the SAAB is a sweetheart.  There won't be a problem from the pure flying viewpoint. 

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2871 on: March 02, 2020, 20:55:48 »
For just plain flying, the SAAB is a sweetheart.  There won't be a problem from the pure flying viewpoint.

Personal experience?

Offline Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2872 on: March 02, 2020, 20:56:28 »
For just plain flying, the SAAB is a sweetheart.  There won't be a problem from the pure flying viewpoint.

Buying fighters purely for airshows and scenic tours through the mountains. There are cheaper options for that...
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2873 on: March 02, 2020, 21:06:13 »
Buying fighters purely for airshows and scenic tours through the mountains. There are cheaper options for that...

:nod:

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Offline YZT580

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2874 on: March 02, 2020, 22:19:16 »
Wasn't talking about usefulness was talking about the pure joy of flying.  Every pilot I have ever met considers his aircraft the absolute best.  Cold Lake won't matter if they an actually get to fly an aircraft that still has that new car smell and that isn't older than he is.  Whether it is the best for the job or not, if the SAAB is the one picked 3 months after training commences there will be a total buy in by the flight crews.  This is not saying that the SAAB is the one to buy, that is just an observation after years of working with pilots.