Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 868417 times)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3050 on: July 01, 2020, 09:52:15 »
Except Canada joined the JSF PSFD MOU in 2002, when a gentleman by the name of Jean Chretien was prime minister...

EDIT: unscramble PSFD

Twisted political win-win.  Previous Liberals good for committing hundred of millions of dollars to the JSF Progam to get billion+ back to industry, but Conservatives evil for....ummm....not...buying the JSF?

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3051 on: July 14, 2020, 14:00:05 »
PuckChaser: Here are some very detailed posts on the Finnish HX fighter competition (actual fly-off in winter in Finland!) by an excellent Finnish fellow:

Mark
Ottawa

Finnish fighter competition--the start and conclusion of a post by Corporal Frisk wherein he points out weaknesses of F-35A bid (high operating costs may limit fleet size to much) and those of Super Hornet, Gripen E (how many decades ahead will there be substantial user bases?)--so don't rule out Eurofighter and Rafale (gone from RCAF competition):

Quote
The Black Horse(s)

I have on a number of occasions stated that the outcome of the HX programme is far from certain, despite the F-35 probably being the fighter to beat...

How is it then with the two dark horses? Surprisingly well, to be honest. The Eurofighter Typhoon has a solid user base, including four major European countries having invested heavily in the system, which provide a depth that significantly improves the chances of it staying in service up to 2060 even if the FCAS and Tempest are already looming at the horizon. The Rafale has a more limited user base, despite scoring three notable export orders recently. Still, France can generally be considered a rather stable user country, and has traditionally held onto its platforms for a long time. Recent examples include the Super Étendard (retired in 2016), the Mirage F1 (retired from the reconnaissance role in 2014), and the Mirage 2000 (still happily serving on in both the ground-attack 2000D and fighter 2000-5 versions). Karl Rieder joked on Twitter when discussing the future of the Super Hornet that buying French is safer, since there’s no budget to change plans. It’s a joke for sure, but there’s also a grain of truth buried within that statement.

So, will 2021 see a showdown between the Rafale and Eurofighter for the HX-prize, the rest having failed the gate checks? Probably not, though I would not be surprised if there is at least someone in the anticipated top-three being kicked out (which based on earlier information, we might know the details of in 2046). At the same time, I am certainly open for the possibility of us getting a surprise winner, and I do not believe anyone who claims they knows the outcome.
https://corporalfrisk.com/2020/07/13/the-black-horses/

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Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3052 on: July 22, 2020, 08:30:54 »
With the deadline for proposals 9 days away, will they be public to some extent for people to see what is being offered?
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3053 on: July 22, 2020, 09:46:10 »
With the deadline for proposals 9 days away, will they be public to some extent for people to see what is being offered?
We will likely only get the basic information, and a rough cost of each bid
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3054 on: July 22, 2020, 10:00:11 »
Finnish fighter competition--the start and conclusion of a post by Corporal Frisk wherein he points out weaknesses of F-35A bid (high operating costs may limit fleet size to much) and those of Super Hornet, Gripen E (how many decades ahead will there be substantial user bases?)--so don't rule out Eurofighter and Rafale (gone from RCAF competition):

Mark
Ottawa

For a better Canadian perspective, check out Doug Allen's blog Best Fighter for Canada. In his blog Allen compares the three remaining aircraft on the following criteria:

- Politics$;

- Logistics;

- Range;

- Stealth and Countermeasures;

- Maneuverability;

- Sensors;

- Firepower; and,

- Speed.


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Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3055 on: July 22, 2020, 17:04:55 »
For a better Canadian perspective, check out Doug Allen's blog Best Fighter for Canada.

I've read a few of his posts.  He's very pro-Gripen, but the reality is that the Gripen E (which is what Saab is proposing) isn't in service yet.  So, sure it *could* have the advantages based on the legacy Gripen, but no one has actually operated it yet, including the Swedes.

Edit:  I wonder how Saab will be able to negotiate the issue with interoperability/security that caused Airbus and Dassault (not small companies) to pull the Typhoon and Rafale from competition.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 17:38:35 by Dimsum »
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Online CBH99

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3056 on: July 22, 2020, 17:33:04 »
The one thing the Gripen has going for it, that the others don't, is that it has the potential to reinvigorate the Canadian aerospace industry during a time where it's been beaten to a pulp.

Bombardier, through it's own mismanagement (at the level that truly should be criminal) has sold off almost every asset in it's aerospace folder, essentially eliminating a huge chunk of the Canadian aerospace industry along with it.  (Which is mind-boggling, since the C-series was a huge success as an aircraft, and short sighted politics got in the way).


What the Gripen brings to the table, in addition to being an advanced, nimble little jet - is the opportunity to create hundreds of high tech jobs, as well as a full technology transfer.  Being able to manufacture them, update them, and service them all inside of Canada is the big shot in the arm that the Canadian aerospace industry desperately needs now that Bombardier has single-handedly basically destroyed it.  (With the exception of Viking Air, which unfortunately is a very small player.)


Is it the best jet for Canada?  Probably not.  Although, being able to operate in austere northern environments is kind of what we're all about as a country, 6 to 7 months of the year. 

Has it successfully participated in NATO operations?  Yes, exceptionally so.  Is it designed to excel at air-to-air as a MiG killer?  Yes.  Is it affordable to not only purchase, but also operate?  Yes.

Is it 5th gen?  No.  Able to perform the same capabilities as the F-35?  No.  Is the current, upgraded model in service yet?  No. 



I've seen all 3 of these jets perform at air shows, and the Gripen honestly looks like a children's toy when compared to the others (Just due to it's incredibly small size.)

I am fairly pro F-35, with a Block 3 Super Hornet being my second choice.  But, the Gripen isn't all bad when you consider the health boost it gives to our government directed industrial decline.   :2c:



**All of that being said, IIIIIFFFFFF the Gripen is selected, I hope the manufacturing & technology transfer is done outside of Bombardier.  Even if that means awarding to a different company, or starting up a small crown corporation from scratch.  Bombardier leadership can't be more incompetent, inefficient, and in my own humble opinion, downright criminal.  And yes, I'm mildly bitter about it.**
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3057 on: July 22, 2020, 21:01:13 »
The only worse possible solution would be to give the manufacturing/tech transfer to Irving and getting them to build jets...that'd be terribad.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3058 on: July 22, 2020, 22:17:54 »
Is it the best jet for Canada?  Probably not.  Although, being able to operate in austere northern environments is kind of what we're all about as a country, 6 to 7 months of the year. 

F-35 and Super Hornet as just as capable to operate in so-called austere environments. What does that even mean by the way? Expensive fighters will be parked inside climate control hangars overnight, the likelihood of cold-start from -30 is rare. I’ve seen it once in the winter after a crash and the aircraft were quarantined outside overnight. All modern fighters are capable of operation in all-weather environments, the Gripen E isn’t special in that regard.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3059 on: July 22, 2020, 22:20:46 »
The only worse possible solution would be to give the manufacturing/tech transfer to Irving and getting them to build jets...that'd be terribad.

Terribad???
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Offline Weinie

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3060 on: July 23, 2020, 05:35:25 »
The one thing the Gripen has going for it, that the others don't, is that it has the potential to reinvigorate the Canadian aerospace industry during a time where it's been beaten to a pulp.

Bombardier, through it's own mismanagement (at the level that truly should be criminal) has sold off almost every asset in it's aerospace folder, essentially eliminating a huge chunk of the Canadian aerospace industry along with it.  (Which is mind-boggling, since the C-series was a huge success as an aircraft, and short sighted politics got in the way).


What the Gripen brings to the table, in addition to being an advanced, nimble little jet - is the opportunity to create hundreds of high tech jobs, as well as a full technology transfer.  Being able to manufacture them, update them, and service them all inside of Canada is the big shot in the arm that the Canadian aerospace industry desperately needs now that Bombardier has single-handedly basically destroyed it.  (With the exception of Viking Air, which unfortunately is a very small player.)


Is it the best jet for Canada?  Probably not.  Although, being able to operate in austere northern environments is kind of what we're all about as a country, 6 to 7 months of the year. 

Has it successfully participated in NATO operations?  Yes, exceptionally so.  Is it designed to excel at air-to-air as a MiG killer?  Yes.  Is it affordable to not only purchase, but also operate?  Yes.

Is it 5th gen?  No.  Able to perform the same capabilities as the F-35?  No.  Is the current, upgraded model in service yet?  No. 



I've seen all 3 of these jets perform at air shows, and the Gripen honestly looks like a children's toy when compared to the others (Just due to it's incredibly small size.)

I am fairly pro F-35, with a Block 3 Super Hornet being my second choice.  But, the Gripen isn't all bad when you consider the health boost it gives to our government directed industrial decline.   :2c:



**All of that being said, IIIIIFFFFFF the Gripen is selected, I hope the manufacturing & technology transfer is done outside of Bombardier.  Even if that means awarding to a different company, or starting up a small crown corporation from scratch.  Bombardier leadership can't be more incompetent, inefficient, and in my own humble opinion, downright criminal.  And yes, I'm mildly bitter about it.**

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Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3061 on: July 23, 2020, 08:18:50 »
F-35 and Super Hornet as just as capable to operate in so-called austere environments. What does that even mean by the way? Expensive fighters will be parked inside climate control hangars overnight, the likelihood of cold-start from -30 is rare. I’ve seen it once in the winter after a crash and the aircraft were quarantined outside overnight. All modern fighters are capable of operation in all-weather environments, the Gripen E isn’t special in that regard.

One of SAAB's selling points is how it can land on a strip of road to refuel/rearm. Also their short take-off/landing ability.

"Gripen can take off and land on runways that are just 800 metres long and 16 metres wide, and the fighter has been designed for all different types of weather and runway conditions, including the harsh snow-covered runways in the Arctic climates found in northern Sweden."
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3062 on: July 23, 2020, 08:30:12 »
Is it the best jet for Canada?  Probably not.  Although, being able to operate in austere northern environments is kind of what we're all about as a country, 6 to 7 months of the year. 

Eielson AFB (F-35 base) is much colder on average than any of the bases the Swedes fly their Gripens from. Sweden's winters aren't that cold at all, not when you compare them to our own winters. 

I don't see Canada adopting the "land on a strip of road" mentality.  It sounds cool, but in reality the logistics required to maintain that capability would be a nightmare.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3063 on: July 23, 2020, 08:32:46 »
One of SAAB's selling points is how it can land on a strip of road to refuel/rearm. Also their short take-off/landing ability.

"Gripen can take off and land on runways that are just 800 metres long and 16 metres wide, and the fighter has been designed for all different types of weather and runway conditions, including the harsh snow-covered runways in the Arctic climates found in northern Sweden."

That's fine, but is that the way we operate up north?  How would the logistics work of getting fuel/weapons/etc to those places?

If not, wouldn't longer legs (which the Gripen E doesn't have compared to the F-35 or Super Hornet) be more beneficial to reach further from FOLs like Inuvik? 
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3064 on: July 23, 2020, 08:50:00 »
That's fine, but is that the way we operate up north?  How would the logistics work of getting fuel/weapons/etc to those places?

If not, wouldn't longer legs (which the Gripen E doesn't have compared to the F-35 or Super Hornet) be more beneficial to reach further from FOLs like Inuvik?

I agree.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3065 on: July 23, 2020, 10:26:15 »
Aircraft listed in increasing order of ferry range (per publicly available information).  To my knowledge, this assumes internal fuel only without AAR.

F35A range: 2800km.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II

Gripen C/D range: 3200km.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen

Super Hornet range: 3330km.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet

Gripen E/F range: 4000km.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen


EDIT to add Gripen E/F range
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3066 on: July 23, 2020, 10:28:26 »
Aircraft listed in increasing order of ferry range (per publicly available information).  To my knowledge, this assumes internal fuel only without AAR.

F35A range: 2800km.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II

Gripen C/D range: 3200km.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen

Super Hornet range: 3330kmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet

Is that Super Hornet Block II or III with CFTs?
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3067 on: July 23, 2020, 10:56:46 »
Is that Super Hornet Block II or III with CFTs?

Good question; looking at the source documents referenced in the wiki, it appears that it does include CFT. (https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1200&ct=1)

Range: Combat: 1,275 nautical miles (2,346 kilometers), clean plus two AIM-9s
Ferry: 1,660 nautical miles (3,054 kilometers), two AIM-9s, three 480 gallon tanks retained.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3068 on: July 23, 2020, 12:01:13 »
Good question; looking at the source documents referenced in the wiki, it appears that it does include CFT. (https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1200&ct=1)

Range: Combat: 1,275 nautical miles (2,346 kilometers), clean plus two AIM-9s
Ferry: 1,660 nautical miles (3,054 kilometers), two AIM-9s, three 480 gallon tanks retained.

On the Wiki page under Specifications (F/A-18E/F) it says the Combat Range 722km. Under the Advanced Super Hornet section, 2nd paragraph, it talks about the CFTs adding 480km to the Combat Range, making it 1202km. If it can add 66.4% to the Combat Range, I wonder what the Range with 2 AIM-9s would be (2346km currently) or the Ferry Range (3330km currently).

Internal Fuel is 14,700 lbs. The CFT would add 3,500 lbs to that. External Fuel Tanks is another 13,040 lbs but I can only see this being used for refueling purposes.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3069 on: July 23, 2020, 12:48:24 »
On the Wiki page under Specifications (F/A-18E/F) it says the Combat Range 722km. Under the Advanced Super Hornet section, 2nd paragraph, it talks about the CFTs adding 480km to the Combat Range, making it 1202km. If it can add 66.4% to the Combat Range, I wonder what the Range with 2 AIM-9s would be (2346km currently) or the Ferry Range (3330km currently).

Internal Fuel is 14,700 lbs. The CFT would add 3,500 lbs to that. External Fuel Tanks is another 13,040 lbs but I can only see this being used for refueling purposes.

And I assume this is all done within the context of a well established, protected and maintained in flight refuelling capability....

.... cool 'combat tools' are always nice, but great combat logistics is always the strategic game-changer AFAIK.
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3070 on: July 25, 2020, 14:53:14 »
The only worse possible solution would be to give the manufacturing/tech transfer to Irving and getting them to build jets...that'd be terribad.

Actually, SAAB has teamed up with IMP to assemble the aircraft, if chosen.

Allen has this write-up on IMP at his blog.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3071 on: July 25, 2020, 15:08:46 »
IMP has a less than stellar record for timely delivery of aircraft.  Adding a Gripen assembly line would push back future Aurora block upgrades into the 2100s...
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3072 on: July 25, 2020, 15:19:45 »
I hate to say it, but they still seem like a better choice than Bombardier 
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3073 on: July 26, 2020, 09:29:53 »
IMP has a less than stellar record for timely delivery of aircraft.  Adding a Gripen assembly line would push back future Aurora block upgrades into the 2100s...

Many years decades ago we said the same about Chantier Davie. When TRUMP (TRibal class Update and Modernization Project) was going one ship had to be refitted in Quebec ~ it was firm, non-negotiable government policy in the 1970s and '80s, 20%+ of just about anything had to be procured in Quebec ~ and that meant Davie. We, not jokingly, referred to the project as "One No Trump," because the engineers were really, honestly concerned that Davie could not do the work and we would end up with only three 280s.

Davie nearly went under; they were in such a financial and managerial mess that they were unfit for the first round of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy. Then they got new, foreign, owners and they turned themselves around ~ it's amazing what getting out from under "Quebec Inc" can do for a company, isn't it? Now people are singing their praises.

Companies can be destroyed by bad owners ~ Bombardier is proof of that ~ and government ownership and protection can, often do, make things worse. My boss, back in the 1980s, the Chief of Engineering for the CF, believed that Canadian and Quebec government politival policies destroyed a good shipyard. But Davie is back. Eventually the family will be forced out of the Bombardier boardroom and it will be taken public and will be owned by foreigners, I expect. It might become a success story, too.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3074 on: July 26, 2020, 09:57:45 »
.

.

Companies can be destroyed by bad owners ~ Bombardier is proof of that ~ and government ownership and protection can, often do, make things worse. My boss, back in the 1980s, the Chief of Engineering for the CF, believed that Canadian and Quebec government politival policies destroyed a good shipyard. But Davie is back. Eventually the family will be forced out of the Bombardier boardroom and it will be taken public and will be owned by foreigners, I expect. It might become a success story, too.
IF there is anything left to re-build.  It is fast becoming nothing but a real estate holding company with a couple of cottage industries to keep a few quebecers employeed.