Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 911771 times)

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Offline GR66

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3125 on: September 09, 2020, 16:56:44 »
The new Block III Super Hornets that Boeing rolled out of final assembly I've noticed don't have the Conformal Fuel Tanks on them. Are those able to be attached afterwards?

The article I read said the Block III Super Hornet has shoulder mounted conformal fuel tanks. Mounted sounds like it can be added on later?

Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks!

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/06/boeings-f-a-18-block-iii-super-hornet-takes-first-flight/

From these links they can be removed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_fuel_tank#:~:text=Conformal%20fuel%20tanks%20have%20the,be%20removed%20on%20the%20ground.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1015765

Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3126 on: September 14, 2020, 22:36:42 »
Boeing giving a short sales pitch video of the Block III Super Hornet to the RCAF, and says we fly Charlie F-18s  :not-again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mWFnIoivO8

Offline CBH99

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3127 on: September 14, 2020, 22:43:43 »
I think he was referring to the Hornet Life Extension program, which ultimately brought everything up to C standard? 

Or maybe his mind just hasn't wrapped itself around that when the script says legacy hornet, it's actually being literal   :D
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Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3128 on: September 14, 2020, 23:15:29 »
I think he was referring to the Hornet Life Extension program, which ultimately brought everything up to C standard? 

Or maybe his mind just hasn't wrapped itself around that when the script says legacy hornet, it's actually being literal   :D

Would it be deemed an F-18A+ ? And how did you know it was scripted...

Offline CBH99

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3129 on: September 14, 2020, 23:35:34 »
I remember, vaguely, YEARS ago when the CF-18 was being upgraded after the Kosovo campaign that the upgrades being done were basically bringing them in line with C/D standard.

There's been upgrades since then, so I'm really just pulling straw out of a hat at this point.  That article, for whatever reason, always stayed in my mind.


Between F-18 sales & upgrade programs for the USN, USMC, and the Super Hornet being considered in several fighter procurement programs currently and over the last few years (Swiss, Indians, Canadians, Finland, Kuwait, Australia, etc etc) I imagine that even if it wasn't totally scripted, he probably skimmed some talking points before going in front of a camera to film something that would be uploaded to their official page.



Like I said though, I'm pulling straw out of a hat.  I was just saying I "think" that might be where he got the Charlie model reference  from.   :2c:   :dunno:
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Offline Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3130 on: September 14, 2020, 23:53:32 »
Boeing giving a short sales pitch video of the Block III Super Hornet to the RCAF, and says we fly Charlie F-18s  :not-again:

Does it really matter at this point? It’s like adding a navigation system to your 1980 Lincoln Continental when everyone uses google maps on their phone.
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Offline CBH99

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3131 on: September 15, 2020, 02:55:57 »
Does it really matter at this point? It’s like adding a navigation system to your 1980 Lincoln Continental when everyone uses google maps on their phone.


Or like adding AESA radars to your 1980 CF-18, right before it gets replaced?   :pullhair:
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3132 on: September 15, 2020, 08:13:12 »

Or like adding AESA radars to your 1980 CF-18, right before it gets replaced?   :pullhair:

IF they ever get replaced. I can see JT and his band of thieves telling DND that `due to the COVID crisis and all the poor people we paid to sit at home and do sweet f&8k all and continue to, you won`t get new fighters - or ships - or tanks. Make do with what you have. And btw we`re taking some of your budget to extend benefits to disenfranchised Canadians. Have a great day Mr - or Ms CDS.
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Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3133 on: September 15, 2020, 14:12:15 »
IF they ever get replaced. I can see JT and his band of thieves telling DND that `due to the COVID crisis and all the poor people we paid to sit at home and do sweet f&8k all and continue to, you won`t get new fighters - or ships - or tanks. Make do with what you have. And btw we`re taking some of your budget to extend benefits to disenfranchised Canadians. Have a great day Mr - or Ms CDS.

Then he can fulfill his promise not to buy the F35 and purchase the rest of the RAAF's fleet of Legacy F-18s to save money.  ::)

Offline MilEME09

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3134 on: September 15, 2020, 14:25:05 »
Then he can fulfill his promise not to buy the F35 and purchase the rest of the RAAF's fleet of Legacy F-18s to save money.  ::)

Short term yes, but long term upgrades, maintenance, etc... add up and will be more costly. I hope to God that doesn't happen, and I hope the next CDS has a spine and would tell the politicians that anything akin to used equipment is a bad idea.
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Offline Spencer100

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3135 on: September 15, 2020, 14:41:18 »
Then he can fulfill his promise not to buy the F35 and purchase the rest of the RAAF's fleet of Legacy F-18s to save money.  ::)

Too late sold to private company in the US


Offline Colin P

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3136 on: September 18, 2020, 00:35:31 »
Too late sold to private company in the US

Perhaps we can contract out for Air support?

Offline CBH99

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3137 on: September 18, 2020, 00:56:09 »
Short term yes, but long term upgrades, maintenance, etc... add up and will be more costly. I hope to God that doesn't happen, and I hope the next CDS has a spine and would tell the politicians that anything akin to used equipment is a bad idea.


I wonder how much they listen to the CDS to be honest.  (Obviously, I have no idea if the PM truly listens/values the advice of the CDS, as I'm not a fly on the wall.)

However.  CDS Vance had a reputation in the Afghan war years for being a solid, no nonsense, 'get it done' kind of guy.  He introduced a new mindset in both the troops & senior leadership when he took the reigns, and from what I remember (I'm aging here, rapidly lately it seems) that his attitude towards the fighting the war was a far cry, and much needed, difference from General Fraser who oversaw operations in 2006.


He seems like he has a spine, and a common sense attitude towards things.  So it makes me question how much the PM & his staff really listen to the CDS, or if he's more the "Sure, we will get his input, but mostly going to do our own thing regardless of what he says" type.
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Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3138 on: September 24, 2020, 10:28:20 »
Further development for the Gripen.

Quote
Swedish and Brazilian Gripen E Fly Together

As a sign of years of great collaboration, the first Brazilian Gripen flew side by side with Sweden’s first Gripen E (designated 6002) for the first time. Together, the two nations have been driving the development of Gripen E/F through joint tests, verification, and validation programs as part of the Brazilian Gripen programme.
The Gripen programme has also been instrumental in the strengthening of Brazil's national defence industry. The Brazilian partners have remained involved in development and production of Gripen aerostructures, systems, avionics, production, and flight testing and training. Some of the Brazilian companies such as Embraer, Akaer and AEL Sistemas are even part of Saab's global supply chain for Gripen E/F. As of today, the Brazilian Gripen programme features one of the largest technology transfer programmes ever carried out for the Brazilian Air Force, and the largest ever done by Saab to another country.

“Brazil is the perfect partner. Not only do they have the operational knowledge and an experienced aviation industry, they also play a major role in Gripen's development,” says Major General Carl-Johan Edström, Commander of the Swedish Air Force. “Together we seek for solutions that involve long-term commitment, and just like us, they want to build their capacity for the next 20 years and longer. I am very positive about the future of this collaboration,” he adds.

Brazil and its defence industry also play a major role in the development of Gripen F. About 400 engineers are working on the development of Gripen F at the Gripen Design and Development Network (GDDN). Gripen Flight Center, located at the same plant, will also start its operations later this year.

However, Brazil is not the only new test site where Saab is expanding its flight operation this year. Saab will also transfer a Gripen E aircraft to Malmen airbase in Linköping as part of its joint testing strategy together with the Swedish Defence Material Administration (FMV) and the Swedish Armed Forces.

“I am incredibly proud to be an Air Force Commander in a nation that manufactures its own fighter aircraft. It is not only something remarkable amongst nations but it also means that I can safely say that we are tactically superior already with the system we have today, Gripen C/D,” says Major Edström.

Read the full story here

https://saab.com/fr-be/gripen/news/blog/gripen-blog/2020/swedish-and-brazilian-gripen-e-fly-together/

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3139 on: September 24, 2020, 16:02:48 »



 So it makes me question how much the PM & his staff really listen to the CDS, or if he's more the "Sure, we will get his input, but mostly going to do our own thing regardless of what he says" type.

In my opinion you're probably right. The AG tried to tell the PM not to interfere in the SNC Lavallin fiasco and it got her fired.

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Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3140 on: September 25, 2020, 07:32:45 »
In my opinion you're probably right. The AG tried to tell the PM not to interfere in the SNC Lavallin fiasco and it got her fired.

So who makes the final decision? The PM?

Because there's a team from the RCAF looking at the proposals, from Fighter Pilots to AERE Officers... so say they come back and say "this one  :nod:" do you think the PM would say "but 2 engines  8)" and decides on something else?

Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3141 on: September 25, 2020, 07:44:14 »
Also, I read that there wont be many "milestones" until the winner is announced in 2022, but between now and then there's the initial evaluation until Feb 2021, and then an evaluation of revised proposals from Aug-Nov 2021.

What an exciting team to be a part of, to selecting Canada's next fighter. Knowing that there's a team from the RCAF working in the selection process gives me hope. Then again, this could only make up for that 60% of capability. Not the other 20/20.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3142 on: September 25, 2020, 08:26:31 »
Knowing that there's a team from the RCAF working in the selection process gives me hope. Then again, this could only make up for that 60% of capability. Not the other 20/20.

There is a team from the CAF that works in the selection process for every purchase.  For Air Force things, this work is shared between the Directorate of Air Requirements (DAR) and the Project Management Office (PMO).  The Army has Dir Land Reqs (DLR) and Navy has Dir Naval Reqs (DNR) that essentially do the same thing that DAR does.

There are a whole whack of other agencies involved in it as well, but DAR and PMO (in this case) are the big ones from the DND/CAF side.
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Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3143 on: September 25, 2020, 10:30:49 »
I wasn't sure if I should post this here or in the "JSF" thread in the US military section, but it just made me think if Canada will ultimately choose to join all the other very close allies who have decided to purchase the F35 and join that community for the next 30+ years. Interesting read for sure.

Quote
The Power of a Growing International F-35 Community

The United States is rapidly building an international community based around the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The military value of such a community is indisputable. The F-35 will be one of the pillars supporting the creation of a new, sensor-rich way of warfare. But as the negotiations that led to the opening of relations between Israel and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) demonstrated, potential international sales of the F-35 can provide significant diplomatic leverage as well. Moreover, experience has shown that operating the same platform and training together can bring militaries closer together.

From the very beginning, the F-35 program was designed to be international. Eight foreign partners – Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey and the United Kingdom – invested their own funds in the program in return for participation in R&D and the promise of future work shares. Each of these countries was allowed input into the aircraft's design, and several have provided unique technologies. Turkey, now formally banned from the program over its decision to acquire a Russian air defense system, produced specialized aircraft parts.

Other countries are acquiring the F-35 through the foreign military sales process. Israel, Japan, South Korea, Belgium, Poland and Singapore all are purchasing the F-35 this way, and the UAE looks to be next. There have been reports that the U.S. and India have discussed the possibility of the latter joining the JSF community.

[.....]

There are tremendous advantages for the U.S. and its allies from the growing international F-35 community. Currently, twelve countries have ordered the F-35, either as members of the consortium or through the foreign military sales process. In a number of these countries, the aircraft is already operational; at least one, Israel, has acknowledged its use in combat. The gains in interoperability that go along with the operation of a common platform are important in coalition warfare. In addition, the creation of a multi-national network of F-35 bases, repair facilities and depots, as well as a global supply chain, will support the ability of U.S. and coalition forces to project power rapidly.

[.....]

The JSF price is coming down as production reaches economic ordering quantities, due in part to strong international demand. The benchmark variant's price, the conventional takeoff/landing F-35A, is now down to $80 million per copy, less than the most advanced variant of the F-16. As the unit price declines, more nations will be in a position to acquire the F-35.

[.....]

Once nations enter the program, some have discovered that they like and need the F-35 so much that they decide to buy additional aircraft. Japan upped its requirement from just 42 aircraft to 147, adding both F-35As and the short takeoff/vertical landing F-35B. Israel appears ready to ask to increase by 25 its planned purchase of 50 F-35s. As Russia and China continue to build up their militaries and act more belligerently, other nations may add to the number of F-35s they acquire as well.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2020/09/25/the_power_of_a_growing_international_f-35_community_578575.html

Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3144 on: October 02, 2020, 14:16:10 »
Contract for CFB Bagotville

Quote
Government awards design contract for future fighter infrastructure in Bagotville

As outlined in Canada’s defence policy, Strong, Secure, Engaged, the Government of Canada is providing Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel with the infrastructure they require to support their future operations.

On Oct. 2, the Honourable Harjit S. Sajjan, Minister of National Defence, announced a $12.1-million contract award to EllisDon-EBC Inc. Joint Venture of Ottawa for the design of a new fighter jet facility at 3 Wing Bagotville, one of two main operating bases for Canada’s future fighter aircraft. This infrastructure, along with the facilities being built at 4 Wing Cold Lake, will support the long-term maintenance and operation of 88 new aircraft being procured for the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) through the Future Fighter Capability Project (FFCP).

“Modern infrastructure is a critical step to remaining operationally ready for the future, and this project is another guarantee that we will continue protecting Canadian sovereignty while standing with NORAD and NATO, today and tomorrow,” said Sajjan. “We are well on our way to constructing the modern facilities we need to house our future fighter fleet.”

This contract is an important milestone in preparing Bagotville for the future fighter, and delivering the infrastructure our aviators will need. Both the Cold Lake and Bagotville infrastructure projects will provide significant economic opportunities for the Canadian construction industry, as well as their respective communities. In total, approximately 900 jobs are expected to be created during the design and construction of both facilities.

The Bagotville facility will host two tactical fighter squadrons and will cover approximately 12,500 m2, providing space for daily operations, maintenance, administration, mission planning, and simulator training.

“By investing in infrastructure for the future fighter aircraft and the Canadian Armed Forces, the government is also investing in the Bagotville community,” said Anita Vandenbeld, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence  “The design and construction of this new facility will provide economic benefits for Canadian industry and the Bagotville region, while ensuring our military remains strong, secure, and engaged.”

Quick Facts

-A $9.2-million contract was awarded in August 2020 to EllisDon Construction Services for the design portion of the Cold Lake future fighter infrastructure.
-Construction is expected to begin at both bases in summer 2022.
-Both the Bagotville and Cold Lake design contracts will include options for the contractors to build the new facilities, and any additional infrastructure once the future fighter is selected, should Canada decide to exercise these follow-on options.
-By awarding these infrastructure design contracts now, before the future fighter is selected, necessary work can proceed and bases will be ready for the first aircraft deliveries.
-These facilities will be designed and constructed to Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design Silver standards and will use energy efficient options wherever possible.

https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases/government-awards-design-contract-for-future-fighter-infrastructure-in-bagotville/?utm_source=skies-daily-news-top-story&utm_campaign=skies-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=top-story&utm_content=V1

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3145 on: October 09, 2020, 14:11:19 »
DCSA approval of sale of Super Hornet/Growler or F-35A for Finland (if chosen):

Note large numbers (almost as many as RCAF), all-in procurement costs:

1)
Quote
Finland – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft and Weapons
https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/finland-fa-18ef-super-hornet-aircraft-and-weapons

2)
Quote
Finland – F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft with Air-to-Air Missiles and Air-to-Ground Precision Guided Munitions
https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/finland-f-35-joint-strike-fighter-aircraft-air-air-missiles-and-air-ground

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Offline suffolkowner

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3146 on: October 12, 2020, 11:58:55 »
DCSA approval of sale of Super Hornet/Growler or F-35A for Finland (if chosen):

Note large numbers (almost as many as RCAF), all-in procurement costs:

1)
2)
Mark
Ottawa


And here is Corporalfrisk's in depth analysis of the above

https://corporalfrisk.com/2020/10/11/hx-goes-dsca/#comments

Offline Drallib

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3147 on: October 14, 2020, 13:29:16 »
Not sure if this will leverage anything for SAAB now, or if this was already in place when they submitted their 'bid'.

Am I the only one who's beginning to warm up to having the Gripen as Canada's future fighter?

Quote
Saab strengthens ties to Canada through CRIAQ partnership

Saab and the Consortium for Research and Innovation in Aerospace in Quebec (CRIAQ) have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU).

This collaborative relationship aims to leverage Quebec’s R&D ecosystem’s strengths to encourage the development of collaborative research projects between Saab and Canadian industry, as well as universities and research organizations.

This collaboration has been formed to support Saab’s future Industrial and Technological Benefit (ITB) commitments, if the Gripen fighter is selected for Canada’s Future Fighter Capability Project (FFCP).

“The quality and breadth of aerospace research and innovation in Canada is globally recognised, with the Quebec region home to many excellent companies and institutions. Therefore, it was natural to reach this agreement with an important organisation like CRIAQ. We look forward to working together to benefit research and the fostering of talent in Quebec,” said Jonas Hjelm, senior vice-president and Saab’s head of business area aeronautics.

“During such unsure times within the industry, this partnership demonstrates that the aerospace industry in Quebec and Canada remains attractive and world class. We are very pleased with this signing as we continue to develop our aerospace industry, adding a new global player to our ecosystem. I am convinced that CRIAQ’s academic, industrial and SME community, and the Quebec economy as well, will clearly benefit from this international collaboration,” said Alain Aubertin, CEO of CRIAQ.

The ITB Policy is the government’s main tool for leveraging procurement to create jobs and economic growth in Canada. Saab has submitted an offer of 88 Gripen E fighters for the Canadian FFCP, and a core element of the Gripen industrial offering includes CAE in Montreal, Quebec who will supply training and mission systems solutions.

The MoU was signed in April 2020.

https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases/saab-strengthens-ties-to-canada-through-criaq-partnership/?utm_source=skies-daily-news-todays-news&utm_campaign=skies-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=todays-news&utm_content=V1
 

Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3148 on: October 14, 2020, 14:02:09 »
I thought CAE also did sims for the F-35 (and perhaps even the Super Hornet)?  There are already a lot of companies in Canada profiting from F-35, so LM can use that for ITBs.  Unsure about Boeing and the Super Hornet.

Also, the Gripen E isn't in service yet, so that adds another issue.  I'm generally skeptical of the line "it'll just be like X - there won't be any issues" because if it's so similar, why didn't they just upgrade the other one while keeping the same model number? 

The other two are at least in operational service somewhere.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 14:08:54 by Dimsum »
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #3149 on: October 14, 2020, 14:40:53 »
The F-35 "operational" status has enjoyed flexible definitions, and declarations that omit that certain key capabilities are on the roadmap but not yet in production.

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