Author Topic: Canada's New Defence Minister  (Read 135518 times)

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2015, 22:06:20 »

More work for those who must not be photographed?
He's already said he wants to beef up the training mission, and that's who's doing it. Time will tell with everything, I suppose.

Offline YZT580

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2015, 22:18:58 »
question for those who know:  will he dig his heels in over something he believes in and as an mp does he still retain his reserve officer status or does he have to give that up?

Offline TCBF

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2015, 23:10:16 »
It will be interesting to see what the relationship between the new MND and the CDS will be like. I know that there was some tension between Brigadier-General (Ret'd) O'Connor and General (Ret'd) Hillier.

- When Gen Vance commanded the Canadian task force in Afg  in 2009, LCol Sajjan was on his staff.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2015, 23:15:17 »
More work for those who must not be photographed?
It would be less sexy than that.  It would be more work for those who nobody wants to photograph ... forensic accountants in suits.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2015, 08:59:33 »
You have no idea how badass Trudeau's Defence Minister really is

You can read then-BGen Fraser's 2006 letter of appreciation to the Vancouver Police Department for then-Major Sajjan's work in Afghanistan.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2015, 10:17:25 »
I wonder if after his stint at NDHQ he will prefer working with the Taliban?  8)

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2015, 10:49:21 »
question for those who know:  will he dig his heels in over something he believes in and as an mp does he still retain his reserve officer status or does he have to give that up?


There is nothing in our (Westminster) parliamentary tradition that says that members, even ministers, must resign their commissions. Our (British and Canadian) parliamentary histories show several members who served as MPs while, also, serving as soldiers, sometimes serving as MPs even while 'away' on operations. In fact, the House of Commons' own rules say that (my emphasis added) "...those days on which a Member was absent due to illness, a military commitment, the adjournment of the House or because the Member was on “public or official business”, are considered days of attendance."
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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2015, 11:09:42 »
There is nothing in our (Westminster) parliamentary tradition that says that members, even ministers, must resign their commissions. Our (British and Canadian) parliamentary histories show several members who served as MPs while, also, serving as soldiers, sometimes serving as MPs even while 'away' on operations. In fact, the House of Commons' own rules say that (my emphasis added) "...those days on which a Member was absent due to illness, a military commitment, the adjournment of the House or because the Member was on “public or official business”, are considered days of attendance."
As someone with a strong hand in making/driving military policy, though, there must be some rules governing some of his military appointments/jobs, no?
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2015, 11:26:52 »
There is a long tradition of reservists serving as Members of Parliament or of a provincial Assembly. As a general rule, they request and are granted transfer to the supplementary list for the duration. I am unaware of any MP/MPA that continued active reserve service while siting, however.

In his case, however, there is the added fact that he is now the Minister of Defence. So there are potential implications with regards to Conflict of Interests rules. How would he act if, for instance, a plan to reorganize the militia was presented to him and affected, or not, the B.C.R.? In his case, he will be around 50 by the time the next election comes around, so perhaps retiring (if he hasn't done so already, as I see in one bio that his military service is listed as ending in 2014) would be a smart move.

PS: I don't think anyone suggested resigning commission. You can choose to retire, or be honourably released from the CF without having to "resign" your commission.

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2015, 11:52:14 »
PS: I don't think anyone suggested resigning commission.
Neither was I, but you're right about potential conflict of interest.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2015, 12:09:34 »
There is a long tradition of reservists serving as Members of Parliament or of a provincial Assembly. As a general rule, they request and are granted transfer to the supplementary list for the duration. I am unaware of any MP/MPA that continued active reserve service while siting, however.

In his case, however, there is the added fact that he is now the Minister of Defence. So there are potential implications with regards to Conflict of Interests rules. How would he act if, for instance, a plan to reorganize the militia was presented to him and affected, or not, the B.C.R.? In his case, he will be around 50 by the time the next election comes around, so perhaps retiring (if he hasn't done so already, as I see in one bio that his military service is listed as ending in 2014) would be a smart move.

PS: I don't think anyone suggested resigning commission. You can choose to retire, or be honourably released from the CF without having to "resign" your commission.


It has happened in Canada, in the past. It was far more common in the UK, and some MPs were killed in action while still, nominally, sitting in the House.

Your point about the appearance of a conflict of interest is very well taken.
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Offline opcougar

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2015, 12:23:33 »
I knew it was only a matter of time before this came up  :salute: This is bound to open up the can-o-worm that is spec pay  :witch:

So we have it done, we have a new minister that isn't Leslie, the question now is

Where's my pay increase?

Offline dangerboy

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2015, 12:25:55 »
I knew it was only a matter of time before this came up  :salute: This is bound to open up the can-o-worm that is spec pay  :witch:

Maybe I am missing something but how is the appointment of a Minister of Defence opening a debate about spec pay?  Just confussed.
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Offline opcougar

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2015, 12:31:37 »
This is one of those situations that solidifies the sayin..."be nice to people on your way up, as you might meet them on your way down". Hypothetically speaking, just imagine a scenario when a then boss was nasty to a member of their staff, and the staff then later becomes a top dog. Talk about the awkwardness that will ensue

- When Gen Vance commanded the Canadian task force in Afg  in 2009, LCol Sajjan was on his staff.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2015, 12:58:46 »
This is one of those situations that solidifies the sayin..."be nice to people on your way up, as you might meet them on your way down". Hypothetically speaking, just imagine a scenario when a then boss was nasty to a member of their staff, and the staff then later becomes a top dog. Talk about the awkwardness that will ensue

We got that, we are just unclear on how that translate into an issue of spec pay.

And if you think that is bad: Melanie Joly is now at Heritage, where she oversees the CBC ... where she interned in a younger incarnation. Hope they were very nice to their intern (but CBC being a crusty civil service type of organization, I have my doubt that interns are treated as little more than the lowest form of life).   ;D

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2015, 13:01:13 »
Sometimes poster on army.ca James Cudmore shared this on twitter, comparing the new MND to some of his predecessors.

https://mobile.twitter.com/cudmoreCBC/status/662037623825932288/photo/1

To be fair, O'Connor (top right) was an armoured officer; I guess they couldn't find a photo of him in olive drab by a Leopard.


(EDIT: fixing a mis-typed acronym)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 13:06:34 by dapaterson »
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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2015, 13:04:29 »
It has happened in Canada, in the past. It was far more common in the UK, and some MPs were killed in action while still, nominally, sitting in the House.
Along those lines, this, as of a little more than three weeks ago:
Quote
.... Sajjan is still looking into the legalities behind running for office as a reservist. He offered his resignation but was asked to stay on as his skillset was valuable to the CAF.

“If we all of a sudden send soldiers in harm’s way and my skills are absolutely needed for the mission, I’d be happy to take a leave of absence from being a member of parliament and share the risk with the other members of CAF,” noted Sajjan.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2015, 13:15:53 »
Along those lines, this, as of a little more than three weeks ago:

Very interesting.

He Who Must Not Be Named has an article within the past hour looking into exactly this; he's promised an update once he hears back from the department.

My WAG is Sajjan will go Supp Res.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2015, 13:21:10 »

In his case, however, there is the added fact that he is now the Minister of Defence. So there are potential implications with regards to Conflict of Interests rules. . . .

I fail to see how Minister Sajjan would violate "Conflict of Interest rules" should one of his future decisions materially affect his former(?) regiment.  While I didn't find the definition of an "interest" strictly specified in any of the pertaining legislation, the "Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons" clearly identifies that what they are talking about is personal economic benefit.  While a decision made by the minister may benefit (or disadvantage) a specific unit or element of the CF, unless that minister (or his family) makes a financial gain it is not a conflict of interest.  It may be bad optics or bad politics but it is unlikely against the law.

Now, if LCol (Ret'd) Sajjan transferred to the Supp Res rather than released from the CF, he would be subject to the Code of Service Discipline on those days that he is in his office at Fort Fumble on the Rideau (defence property).  Though I do not expect Minister Sajjan's conduct to be such that, while in his office (or elsewhere in the building), there would be grounds to charge him (or to find someone foolhardy enough to lay such) with a service offence, it does make for an interesting discussion.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2015, 13:29:55 »
The conflict of interest regulations deal with both real and perceived conflicts ... the latter can be especially troublesome in politics.
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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2015, 13:41:53 »
The conflict of interest regulations deal with both real and perceived conflicts ... the latter can be especially troublesome in politics.
Even the Code talks about "real or apparent conflicts of interests".
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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2015, 13:45:57 »
So, Supp List or not....does Lt Col Singh salute the CDS or does the CDS salute the Right Honourable Mr. Singh?

And who signs the expense checks?
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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2015, 13:49:12 »
I wonder if after his stint at NDHQ he will prefer working with the Taliban?  8)

Well done sir. That made me smile!

Now which Dunderhead from 39 Bde send him his "you're NES  and we'll release you" letter?
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2015, 14:06:06 »
So, Supp List or not....does Lt Col Singh salute the CDS or does the CDS salute the Right Honourable Mr. Singh?

Neither. First of all, I very much doubt the Minister will show up dressed in uniform  ::)

Second of all, a member of the Sup res, when just happening to be on DND property is subject to the Code of Service Discipline, but unless out on a class A, B or class C service, is not subject to any other regulations and obligations, including ceremonial ones such as salutes (in fact, unless out on such service, the member should not be in uniform at any time). A member of the Sup.Res is only a civilian that happens to be able to avail him/herself of class A, B an C  reserve service opportunities or can be recalled to service by the CDS.

As for the CDS: The MND does not rate a salute. He is a civilian.

Offline mick

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Re: Canada's New Defence Minister
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2015, 14:08:26 »
Interestingly, the MND's bio on the DND website refers to him as "a retired Lieutenant-Colonel in the Canadian Armed Forces and a combat veteran."

If the minister is, in fact, now in the Supp Res, would he actually be subject to the CSD while on DND property (despite the fact that he is occupying a civilian position and fulfilling a non-military role)?

As a member of the Supp Res myself, am I somehow subject to the CSD if I'm delivering a pizza to Edmonton Garrison?