Author Topic: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy  (Read 878854 times)

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Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2925 on: December 19, 2019, 19:57:12 »
And CCGS Louis St. Laurent has just turned 53 years old (https://www.atlanticresource.org/aora/site-area/blog/louis-s-st-laurent).

Mark
Ottawa

Anyone want to take bets that Louis St. Laurent qualifies for CPP before it retires?

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2926 on: December 19, 2019, 20:30:53 »
Well, one can get CPP at 60 with reduced benefits--but unless we buy abroad I can't see a new polar ship before CCGS Louis St. Laurent is eligible for that.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2927 on: December 19, 2019, 20:45:29 »
Well, one can get CPP at 60 with reduced benefits--but unless we buy abroad I can't see a new polar ship before CCGS Louis St. Laurent is eligible for that.

Mark
Ottawa

Any thoughts on putting a SMR (small modular reactor) in our yet to be built heavy icebreaker?

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2928 on: December 19, 2019, 20:57:02 »
The official word from the info-machine ...
Quote
The Government of Canada is delivering for Canadians by equipping the Canadian Coast Guard and the Royal Canadian Navy with the ships they need in order to serve Canadians.

The National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS) is a long-term, multibillion-dollar program to renew the Canadian Coast Guard and Royal Canadian Navy fleets, creating good middle-class jobs across the country while revitalizing Canada’s marine industry.

Today, the Government of Canada announced Chantier Davie has pre-qualified to become the third strategic partner under the Strategy. The NSS’s third yard will build six program icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard. This shipyard has demonstrated it meets initial requirements related to experience, capability and capacity, as defined in the Invitation to Qualify issued on August 2, 2019.

Chantier Davie will now move to the next stage in the selection process, the Request for Proposal and evaluation stage. This will include a third-party assessment of the shipyard’s infrastructure, submission of a formal proposal, and a due diligence process to ensure the shipyard is financially capable of performing the work and making any necessary upgrades to its infrastructure. This assessment is similar to the process previously undertaken in 2011 to select Irving Shipbuilding Inc. and Seaspan Shipyards as strategic partners under the NSS.

Once this phase is completed, the Government of Canada will begin negotiations for an umbrella agreement, which is expected to be put in place in late 2020.

Quotes

    “Through the National Shipbuilding Strategy, the Government of Canada is proud to support the members of the Canadian Coast Guard, and provide jobs and economic opportunities for Canadians from coast to coast to coast. Today’s announcement is a critical milestone in how we are able to adapt the strategy to meet Canada’s evolving federal shipbuilding needs, all while ensuring the members of the Coast Guard have the equipment they need to do their important work.”

    The Honourable Anita Anand
    Minister of Public Services and Procurement

    “I’m happy to see that the process for the fleet renewal and new program icebreakers continues to move ahead under the National Shipbuilding Strategy. The women and men of the Canadian Coast Guard save lives, keep our economy moving and protect our environment. This renewal will ensure they can continue to deliver critical services on the Great Lakes, the St. Lawrence waterway, the East Coast, and in the Arctic.”

    The Honourable Bernadette Jordan
    Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard

    “The National Shipbuilding Strategy will ensure that Canada has a strong, effective fleet of ships to serve and protect Canadians for years to come. Today’s announcement will not only see the revitalization of the Canadian Coast Guard fleet, but will also deliver economic benefits and create highly skilled jobs right across the country. Our government is committed to ensuring that, as we move forward with the NSS, Canadians will continue to see the economic benefits from this important industry.”

    The Honourable Navdeep Bains
    Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry

Quick facts

    On May 22, 2019, the Government of Canada announced its intention to add a third Canadian shipyard as a partner under the NSS, and on August 2, 2019, Canada launched the competitive process to select the new shipyard.

    The third shipyard will be responsible for building six new program icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard.

    Coast Guard icebreakers are essential to Canada’s economy, supporting year-round marine trade in eastern Canada, the St. Lawrence waterway and the Great Lakes. They provide critical icebreaking services to ensure commercial ships have access to Canadian ports during the winter, and support summer resupply activities to Canada’s Arctic communities and their industries. They are also important platforms for search and rescue and environmental response operations ...
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Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2929 on: December 19, 2019, 21:01:50 »
Another guess: 5-6 years to have the first one delivered, then seven icebreakers, one per year (which might be delayed a little bit), plus , after that, planned maintenance, again one per year. We arrive again to the forecasted  20-years.
Better would be to have Davie go all out building icebreakers.  When the icebreaking fleet is in fairly good shape, slow the rate of procurement to a more manageable rate.
Any thoughts on putting a SMR (small modular reactor) in our yet to be built heavy icebreaker?
And further delay building the icebreaker and freak out the anti-nuclear activists?

Offline YZT580

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2930 on: December 19, 2019, 21:20:55 »
I think light icebreakers (CCG Type 1100) are to go to Seaspan as part of announcement this May:

Don't forget Heddle.  They will be there somewhere picking up smaller build contracts.  After half a century of totally ignoring ship construction we have alot of catching up to do.  It will keep all existing yards busy for the next 2 decades and by that time it will be time to replace the first built ones.  As for new subs we have no capacity left to build them and they are a specialty item.  My guess is that Australia is going to rue the day they didn't purchase and build off-shore.

Offline Colin P

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2932 on: December 20, 2019, 15:21:35 »
Good, endless, never never land grief. Just buy the flipping ship abroad (take part in USCG's polar cutter program?), Davie has six icebreakers anyway and all our three big yards will be busy for a couple of decades:

Quote
Missing heavy icebreaker back on drawing board: Coast Guard

Call it the case of the missing icebreaker.

The fate of the Canadian Coast Guard's next heavy icebreaker has been wrapped in mystery since the federal government quietly removed the $1.3-billion project from Vancouver shipyard Seaspan's order book in May.

But Canadian Coast Guard Commissioner Mario Pelletier says plans to build the icebreaker, which was first promised by Stephen Harper's Conservative government more than a decade ago, have not been cancelled.

Rather, Pelletier tells The Canadian Press that the icebreaker is back on the drawing board as the Coast Guard looks to update the original design to account for changes in technology and the government's requirements.

Exactly when and where the CCGS John G. Diefenbaker, as the icebreaker is to be named, will be built — and how much it will ultimately cost — remains up in the air.

But Pelletier says he is confident the icebreaker it is expected to replace, the 53-year-old CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent, will be able to continue operating through to the late 2020s thanks to various upgrades.

The Diefenbaker was originally supposed to replace the St-Laurent in 2017 [and was announced by PM Harper in 2008!].
https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/12/20/missing-heavy-icebreaker-back-on-drawing-board-coast-guard/

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2933 on: December 20, 2019, 16:02:18 »
Meanwhile see what the Dutch are building--bets that first Seaspan JSS (delivery scheduled 2023 https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/interarmees-joint-eng.html#a3) will beat delivery of this ship?

Quote
Royal Netherlands Navy Closer to Get its new Combat Support Ship Zr. Ms Den Helder from Damen

The construction of the new Combat Support Ship (CSS) Zr. Ms Den Helder should start soon. An agreement has been reached between the Dutch MoD and Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding on the construction and delivery of a CSS. State Secretary Barbara Visser sent the last required document (D letter) to the Lower House on December 19.

With an additional supply vessel, the Royal Netherlands Navy (RNLN) will have a combat support capability that is almost permanently available thanks to two vessels: The future Den Helder CSS would then supplement the existing Joint Support Ship (JSS) Zr. Ms Karel Doorman.

With more supply capacity, maritime operations at sea, both nationally and internationally, can be sustained for longer according to the Dutch MoD. This increases the effectiveness of both national and combined operations and helps the armed forces to perform their tasks. The ship can be used worldwide and, protected by frigates, can operate under high threat.

In addition, it can be used in the fight against drug trafficking, controlling refugee flows and provide disaster relief.

CSS made in the Netherlands

The Zr. Ms Den Helder design is largely based on Zr.Ms. Karel Doorman. The CSS may not resemble the JSS on the outside, but much is reused on the inside. The CSS is also functionally comparable to the Joint Support Ship. The functions of strategic sea transport and logistical support from the sea (sea basing) are an exception. The CSS is lacking an amphibious warfare capability because its main role is solely replenishment at sea

The fabrication contract is not contracted out in Europe. The Dutch MoD wants to keep the knowledge and skills of designing and building naval ships in the Netherlands. The armed forces thus invoked Article 346 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It states that Member States may protect essential security interests. This also relates to the production of defense equipment.

Den Helder CSS Specifications

The nearly 200-meter-long ship will have a 75-person crew and can also take an additional 75 people on board. The design can accommodate several helicopters and around 20 ISO containers. The construction cost of 375 million Euros is almost € 50 million higher than previously calculated. This is partly due to new standard requirements and developments in marine construction, energy, the environment and safety.

For example, the design has now explicitly looked at fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. The combination of diesel engines, hull shape and propeller design reduces fuel consumption by around 6 percent compared to the Karel Doorman JSS.

Delivery of the Den Helder is scheduled for the 2nd quarter of 2024. A year later, in the 2nd quarter of 2025, the CSS must be ready for duty with the RNLN

During NEDS 2019, Damen was showcasing a scale model of the CSS (pictures above) featuring the following dimensions:

    Length over all: 179.3 meters
    Beam: 26.4 meters
    Displacement: 22,400 tonnes


Artist impression of the Combat Support Ship. © Ministerie van Defensie


Karel Doorman JSS. The design of the Den Helder is largely based on that of this ship.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/12/royal-netherlands-navy-closer-to-get-its-new-combat-support-ship-zr-ms-den-helder-from-damen/

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2934 on: December 20, 2019, 16:26:29 »
Quote
Rather, Pelletier tells The Canadian Press that the icebreaker is back on the drawing board as the Coast Guard looks to update the original design to account for changes in technology and the government's requirements.
Wikipedia says that STX Canada Marine was awarded the contract to design the icebreaker in early February of 2011.  Update an eight-year-old design?  Hell yeah.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2935 on: January 14, 2020, 15:38:27 »
Look what even Germans are doing--and first new frigate for 2027, CSC when? And wonder what's included in seemingly lowish cost.

Quote
Damen, Luerssen to Build German Warships

Germany has awarded Dutch shipyard Damen a contract to construct at least four new multi-role warships worth nearly 6 billion euros ($6.7 billion) [emphasis added] in an alliance with its Bremen-based partner Luerssen, the armed forces and budget lawmakers said on Tuesday.

The ship tender is one of Germany's biggest arms projects, along with a contract for the MEADS missile defence system and the new Franco-German fighter jet (FCAS), underlining Berlin's efforts to increase its military capabilities.

The first warship is expected to be delivered in 2027, the Bundeswehr armed forces said in a statement, confirming a Reuters report from Monday. The contract includes an option to build two additional MKS 180 warships.

Lawmakers told Reuters that about two-thirds of the production will take place at Luerssen's shipyards and other sites in northern Germany [emphasis added].

"The decision for the MKS 180 to be mainly built by the Luerssen Group and thus in Germany is a good decision which strengthens Germany as a marine and shipyard location," said Eckhardt Rehberg, chief budget lawmaker from Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives.

Germany's new warships will be able to attack targets on land and under water, and provide air cover for other vessels [emphasis added].

Other companies interested in the MKS 180 warship tender were ThyssenKrupp and German Naval Yards.

Damen said in a statement that its alliance also included Hamburg-based Blohm+Voss shipyard and France's Thales. It estimated that about 80% of the tender's net investment would remain in Germany [emphasis added].


Image: BAAINBw/MTG Marinetechnik
https://www.marinelink.com/news/damen-luerssen-build-german-warships-474591

Mark
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Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Colin P

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2936 on: January 16, 2020, 16:49:27 »
I can imagine in the meetings for the German ships: "Shall we make a list?" says the builder, Deutsche Marine rep screams "Do not say that word, we do not want free list again!!!"


In other news, the keel laying ceremony resulted in a nice coin being embedded on the new JSS. I have a picture not sure if I can share it.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2937 on: January 16, 2020, 16:59:46 »
Gov't on JSS:

Quote
...
Current status

    *Construction of large segments of the ship, known as early blocks, commenced in June 2018 to improve the schedule and mitigate a production gap within the shipyard
    *In early 2019, the Government of Canada made a decision to re-sequence construction of the JSS and the offshore oceanographic science vessel (OOSV) at Vancouver Shipyards, in order to build on the momentum underway with the construction of the JSS early blocks
    *Under the revised sequencing, Vancouver Shipyards will complete construction on JSS 1, followed by construction of the OOSV and then JSS 2. Work on JSS 1 continues, and the vessel is expected to be delivered in 2023
...
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/interarmees-joint-eng.html#a3

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2938 on: January 18, 2020, 15:46:35 »
Trudeau needs to quickly name the third shipbuilder and have them start building icebreakers as soon as possible.  And it looks like six 8 000 tonne icebreakers is not going to be enough.  Earlier, the Chamber of Maritime Commerce recommended an additional five icebreakers on top of these six.  Now it looks like the Lake Carriers’ Association might be suggesting the same thing.https://lakesuperiornews.com/Shipping-News/lake-carriers-association-serious-concerns-about-adequate-icebreaking

US Lake Carriers' Association at it again:

Quote
Lake Carrier's Association calling for a new icebreaker

NEGAUNEE TOWNSHIP, Mich. (WLUC) - The President of the Lake Carriers' Association says he'd like to see more icebreaker ships available on the Great Lakes. Last year no icebreakers were out on Lake Superior, giving some companies a later start to the shipping season.

The Lake Carriers' Association hired an economist to determine the economic impact of that late start due to the ice. The estimate is about a billion dollars lost to the U.S. economy. President of the Lake Carriers' Association, Jim Weakley says he's working to get at least one 240-foot long icebreaker.

"God bless the men and women of the U.S. Coast Guard. They do the best they can, but they don't have the number of vessels that they need to do their job properly. We're working hard to get them the ships they need and currently what we think we need is an additional heavy icebreaker, a twin to the Mackinaw," said Weakley.

Back in 1979, between the U.S. and Canadian Coast Guard there were 20 icebreaker vessels for the Great Lakes. Now that number is down to just 11.
https://www.uppermichiganssource.com/content/news/Lake-Carriers-Association-calling-for-a-new-icebreaker-567086241.html

Plus:
Quote
Rising Great Lakes prompt calls for more icebreakers

The shipping industry and Michigan businesses are urging Congress to increase the number of icebreaking ships in the Great Lakes as water levels have surged to record highs in most of the lakes and connecting waterways.

In the past few winters, higher water levels have created greater ice hazards for ships, hindering the movement of goods and last year costing an estimated 5,421 jobs and $1 billion to the U.S. economy, according to an industry-backed study. It also resulted in an estimated $172,000 in lost state and federal tax revenue.

The losses resulted from steel that wasn't made and power that wasn't generated by coal and iron ore that U.S.-flag ships couldn't move, according to a report by Martin Associates that used industry-provided numbers on lost hours and tonnage. The cargo moved on Great Lakes waterways include iron ore, coal, limestone, grain, salt, fuel and oil.

Freezing temperatures and winter storms in higher water create more opportunities for the formation of ice floes — large sheets of ice that can damage hulls — and ice jams, which clog waterways and cause flooding. They are creating a growing problem to keep the shipping channels and harbors open from December to as late as April, said Jim Weakley, president of the Lake Carriers Association, which represents shipping companies operating on the lakes.

"We've been complaining about this for years," Weakley said. "And now with the high water, we think the problems are going to be even worse, not just an economic loss to the laker fleet, but an economic loss to the steel companies that we provide support for."

Sen. Gary Peters, D-Bloomfield Township, has been working for five years to get funding for a new heavy ice cutter, but the Coast Guard has not created a plan to do so. He recently got $2 million in the latest budget agreement to jump-start the process.

“The Great Lakes are in desperate need of a new heavy icebreaker because Michigan businesses must be able to rely on shipping to move their goods and materials year-round," Peters said in a statement. "Increasing our icebreaking capacity will not only help support maritime commerce, but will also protect our Northern border.”

The U.S. Coast Guard operates nine icebreaking ships on the Great Lakes — two to three fewer than it had in the 1990s. Canada has two. There are eight U.S. ice breakers currently because one cutter is in the Coast Guard yard in Maryland for repairs to extend its service life.

Some business groups said Congress and the Trump administration urgently need to address the issue. Shipping by water is a critical part of the supply chain for businesses for all sizes, said Brian Calley, president ofthe Small Business Association of Michigan.

"The situation is more critical than ever this year because of historically high water levels," said Calley, the former lieutenant governor of Michigan. "There is an aging fleet of icebreakers that have dwindled in numbers over the past few decades. That presents an unnecessary risk to moving commerce and homes/businesses along the coastlines.”

The U.S. Coast Guard would love more resources to add to the existing nine icebreakers, a spokesman said. But the Coast Guard is on top of the ice problem 95% of the time, he said.

"If we have a terribly harsh winter, there's probably going to be more challenges for the Coast Guard as well as the industry to move their ships through the ice, but as a government agency, we can't resource for the worst-case winter on a regular basis," said Lorne Thomas, the external affairs officer for the Coast Guard based in Cleveland.

More money, but no cutter

The Coast Guard received a small boost for Great Lakes ice clearing from the latest federal government funding package.

The budget agreement signed in late December provides $4 million for the Coast Guard — money obtained by Peters. About $2 million is targeted at "program support' so the guard can run and maintain icebreakers longer in bad weather, while another $2 million is supposed to create a major acquisition office that might result in another icebreaker for the Great Lakes.

Buying a new cutter could range from $175 million to $300 million, depending on what kind of capabilities are designed for the vessel, according to a rough estimate by the Congressional Research Service. Half of the $4 million is targeted at initiating Coast Guard planning for an icebreaker at least as large as the USCGC Mackinaw — a 240-foot heavy cutter, according to congressional staff.

Peters and U.S. Sen. Tammy Baldwin, D-Wisconsin, have gotten authority for a new Coast Guard icebreaker at different times during the last five years, but have never received the funding. For national security reasons, the Coast Guard has been seeking money to buy three large polar ice cutters and three medium ones, which wouldn't operate in the Great Lakes but in the Arctic and Antarctica
[emphasis added].

Record-low temperatures last winter helped cause ice problems on the lakes and connecting waterways. Last year, two ships were forced aground due to ice floes, Weakley said.

But this winter is expected to be more moderate.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration forecasts 47% of the five Great Lakes will be frozen by late February, below the 56% long-term average.

Over 5% of the five Great Lakes were covered with ice on Jan. 15, according to the federal Great Lakes research lab in Ann Arbor.

The number of icebreaking cutters has fluctuated during the past 30 years.

There were 11 to 12 cutters in the Great Lakes during the 1990s, depending on the year, the Coast Guard confirmed. Three of them technically could break ice, but they instead were used to aid navigation, according to the Coast Guard.

In 2000, the number fell to eight cutters, officials said, and has since risen...[lots more]
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/01/17/rising-great-lakes-prompt-calls-more-icebreakers/4410987002/

Mark
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy
« Reply #2939 on: January 18, 2020, 19:38:00 »
"Rising Great Lakes Levels"....

"Great Lakes water levels drop" 2007 https://www.thespec.com/news-story/2136234-great-lakes-water-levels-drop/

"Rising temperatures could lower water levels in the lakes," 2017  https://www.cleveland.com/weather/blog/2017/08/how_is_climate_change_affectin.html

"Water Levels of the Great Lakes Are Declining" Jan 2019  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/water-levels-of-the-great-lakes-are-declining/

"It appears 2020 won't bring relief from high Great Lakes water levels – and they could be even higher than this past record-shattering spring and summer." Oct 2019
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/10/11/great-lakes-water-levels-even-higher-2020/3941750002/

"Great Lakes water levels have swung from record lows to record highs. Here’s why." Nov 2019
https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2019/11/08/great-lakes-water-levels-have-swung-record-lows-record-highs-heres-why/

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