Author Topic: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels  (Read 46785 times)

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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #150 on: December 20, 2018, 10:12:35 »
If there is a $1 Billion cancellation clause, and you currently owe $1.8 Billion........


http://nationalpost.pressreader.com/national-post-latest-edition/20181220

Saudis now $1.8B behind on bill for AVs - NP - 20 Dec 18
    Payment delays date to regime change

LONDON, ONT. • Saudi Arabia has fallen behind in making payments on its $15-billion arms deal with Canada, a contract that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has said he’s looking for ways to halt. The Saudi government was short $1.8 billion in payments to the end of September for light-armoured vehicles assembled at General Dynamics Land Systems Canada (GDLS) in London, according to financial statements from the Canadian Commercial Corp., the Crown corporation overseeing the controversial contract. “It is a problem. There is concern, absolutely,” a federal official with knowledge of the agreement told The London Free Press on Wednesday.

The arrears can be traced to a new regime in Saudi Arabia since the agreement was signed in 2014, and there have been delays in payments since the change, said the official, who declined to be identified. “That changed the way everything worked, including payments,” he said. However, since September the oil-rich country has been making payments and has reduced the amount owed, the official added.

The deal, which the Liberals are under pressure to scuttle amid Saudi human rights abuses, including the slaying of dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi at the country’s consulate in Turkey, affects thousands of workers in the London area and in a supply chain that extends nationwide. Trudeau, whose government inherited the deal from former prime minister Stephen Harper’s Conservatives, said publicly this week for the first time that the Liberals are trying to find a way to stop the sale involving hundreds of light armoured military vehicles built by the Canadian division of American defence giant General Dynamics.

The report by the Crown corporation handling the sale says “trade receivables” are short $1.86 billion as of quarterly statements ending Sept. 30, and that payments have been sparse over the course of about one year. “The significant increase in past due trade receivables, is mostly attributable to the ABP contract,” the report says, referring to the armoured brigades program.

The payment issue hasn’t been helped by recent public musings by Trudeau, who on Sunday told CTV’s Question Period the government is looking for a way to halt the sale. “We are engaged with the export permits to try and see if there is a way of no longer exporting these vehicles to Saudi Arabia,” he said, without being specific. Such a move would devastate GDLS Canada’s 1,800-member workforce in London, as well as thousands of jobs with supplier companies, said David Perry, a senior analyst with the Canadian Global Affairs Institute think-tank.

The Saudis may now feel even less inclined to write a cheque, he added. “It does not give the Saudis a reason to catch up on payments. The government of Canada is responsible for making sure GDLS gets paid for the work it has done,” said Perry.
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Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #151 on: December 20, 2018, 21:22:26 »
LAV 6.0 Datasheet:https://www.gdlscanada.com/files/products/LAV-6.0.pdf
LAV 700 Datasheet: https://www.gdlscanada.com/products/LAV/LAV-700.pdf

LAV 700 is taller, longer, wider, but lighter with longer range. It also can come with a bigger gun. Options for RWS with 7.62/50Cal or 30/40MM as well as 90/105MM and 120MM Mortar variants.

Thanks for the links/info.

Going forward would we continue with the LAV 6 or is the LAV 700 an improvement, looking at a Bison/M113 replacement?
Why would one use a 6 vs 700, do they each have their own niche?

In my former life of buying equipment, we just bought equipment every year and never had a strict fleet profile even if it might have been desired Even sticking with a manufacturer/model over 5-10 years there would or could be considerable differences. I mention this because the various micro fleets have been disparaged on here many times and am wondering if having LAV 6's and 700's would be that much of a handicap?

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #152 on: December 20, 2018, 23:35:51 »
Could reconfigure some to indirect and direct fire support

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #153 on: October 29, 2019, 18:13:30 »
The cheque is in the mail: Saudi Arabia is $2.5B US in arrears in payments for LAVs built in Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/saudi-arabia-lav-canada-armoured-vehicles-1.5340087
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #154 on: October 29, 2019, 18:54:07 »
The cheque is in the mail: Saudi Arabia is $2.5B US in arrears in payments for LAVs built in Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/saudi-arabia-lav-canada-armoured-vehicles-1.5340087

They aren't going to pay someone who is giving them poor customer service.  Just saying  :nod:

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #155 on: October 29, 2019, 19:22:49 »
How about some free oil in barter??
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #156 on: October 29, 2019, 19:26:36 »
They aren't going to pay someone who is giving them poor customer service.  Just saying  :nod:


How is it poor customer service?  (Honest question.)


They order X number of vehicles.

X number of vehicles costs Y number of dollars.

They pay money, they receive vehicles.


How on earth do we ship them $2.5B of vehicles that aren't even paid for?
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #157 on: October 29, 2019, 19:28:04 »
Any Canadian journalists thinking of heading over to cover the story?
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #158 on: October 29, 2019, 19:33:29 »

How is it poor customer service?  (Honest question.)


They order X number of vehicles.

X number of vehicles costs Y number of dollars.

They pay money, they receive vehicles.


How on earth do we ship them $2.5B of vehicles that aren't even paid for?

I hope to god GDLS has stopped deliveries, otherwise thats just a bad business model. Anyone wanna take bets on if our buying of 360 LAV's  might of been taking over the last of the saudi contract?
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #159 on: October 29, 2019, 20:00:55 »

How is it poor customer service?  (Honest question.)


They order X number of vehicles.

X number of vehicles costs Y number of dollars.

They pay money, they receive vehicles.


How on earth do we ship them $2.5B of vehicles that aren't even paid for?

Ehmmm, where have you been the last few years?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4935735

The Government of Canada brought tonnes of heat and light down on their business partner.  The Saudis expected to be given their vehicles and left to their own devices and we couldn't do it so now they aren't paying us.

The nature of the deal is KSA pays GoC who in turn pays GDLS.  If GoC doesn't get paid by KSA, GDLS is still owed money; therefore, GoC has to pay GDLS because jobs, jobs, jobs!

It's all about leverage and demonstrating just whom exactly is pulling the strings.  Why are Canadians so bloody Naive?

Whatever you think of the Saudis, one thing they are not is stupid.  Most of KSA Royal Family have been educated at the top Ivy League and International Business Colleges in the World.  They understand Grand Strategy.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 20:04:58 by Humphrey Bogart »

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #160 on: October 29, 2019, 20:16:19 »
And we balance ourselves......
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #161 on: October 29, 2019, 22:51:13 »
And we balance ourselves......

The real issue is the Government of Justin Trudeau thought they could score short term political points by taking a hardline against the Saudi Regime over the Khashoggi Affair and use the Armoured Vehicle Contract as fake leverage.  They thought they could do this while simultaneously singing a different tune in the back room.

The Liberals fundamentally misunderstood the KSA mindset though. 

The vehicles themselves are completely inconsequential to the KSA.  They could have bought vehicles from anyone but they bought them from us because they thought it would buy them favour in the court so to speak with our Government which is what this deal was all about.  We screwed them for domestic political gain and now they are going to make us pay for that move.

 It's that sort of 4 year election cycle calculus that has us on the hook for Billions of dollars of military hardware.  We fundamentally misjudged a Regime with 275 years of governance experience and history that thinks about things far differently than we do.

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #162 on: October 29, 2019, 22:58:22 »
From my experience, Saudi Arabia paying late / making partial payment is per SOP.

Their business systems are like POTUS.  Pay when overdue, and then only the minimum, and fight in court.
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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #163 on: October 30, 2019, 07:42:01 »
...and it's only now a CBC headline because the London ON's three ridings voted Liberal, Liberal, and NDP, surrounded by Conservative ridings.

/cynic   ;)

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #164 on: October 30, 2019, 09:12:45 »
We screwed them for domestic political gain and now they are going to make us pay for that move.

'Sunny Ways', meet 'Realpolitik'  :nod:
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Offline FSTO

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #165 on: October 30, 2019, 09:47:39 »
So next time (if there is a next time) there will be a Leopard 2 on the jetty that sits in front of the loading ramp and not one piece of equipment is loaded until an Saudi Prince drives an armoured truck full of gold equal to the value of the equipment on the jetty off the ship.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #166 on: October 30, 2019, 10:40:51 »
'Sunny Ways', meet 'Realpolitik'  :nod:

 :nod:

Saudis aren't stupid.  275 years of Absolute Power, you don't maintain that level of control by being dumb.

Canadians seem to be fairly ignorant of this fact and think it's simply a purely transactional relationship.  But it isn't just about that.  Saudis value civility and not losing face. 

I have to believe they took the comments from Chrystia Freeland and Global Affairs Canada very poorly and that the relationship between the Saudis and us is probably over until this Government leaves power.




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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #167 on: October 30, 2019, 11:17:39 »
:nod:

Saudis aren't stupid.  275 years of Absolute Power, you don't maintain that level of control by being dumb.

Canadians seem to be fairly ignorant of this fact and think it's simply a purely transactional relationship.  But it isn't just about that.  Saudis value civility and not losing face. 

I have to believe they took the comments from Chrystia Freeland and Global Affairs Canada very poorly and that the relationship between the Saudis and us is probably over until this Government leaves power.

F*** em, those House of Saud sons of aborted camel calves can fry in the desert. Worst rich people in the world and we should have nothing to do with them. 

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #168 on: October 30, 2019, 12:13:42 »
F*** em, those House of Saud sons of aborted camel calves can fry in the desert. Worst rich people in the world and we should have nothing to do with them.

Oil embargo, wonder how fast quebec would want a pipeline if they couldn't buy suadi oil
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #169 on: October 30, 2019, 12:40:03 »
F*** em, those House of Saud sons of aborted camel calves can fry in the desert. Worst rich people in the world and we should have nothing to do with them.

Certainly but that doesn't negate the fact that we are now on the hook for $3.4 Billion Canadian with the number rising by $200 Million every quarter. 

Couple of really nice tidbits here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/saudi-arabia-lav-canada-armoured-vehicles-1.5340087

Quote
According to General Dynamics' quarterly earnings statements, the Saudi late payment debt has been growing by $200 million every quarter since the beginning of the year.
 
According to CCC's website, "every contract signed has the legal effect of being signed in the name of the Government of Canada, providing foreign government buyers with the assurance that the contract will be delivered per the agreed terms and conditions, guaranteed."

Of course, the GoC will be on the hook for this as GDLS Canada is a sub-contractor of the Government of Canada as it is the Government of Canada who pays GDLS.

Quote
General Dynamics said in its quarterly earnings report that the late payment amounts — totalling $2.6 billion US, or roughly $3.4 billion Cdn —will be billed to the Canadian government "in accordance with the agreed-upon contractual terms."
 
"We continue to meet our obligations under the contract and are entitled to payment for work performed," the company said in its earnings release. "Therefore, we expect to collect the full amount currently outstanding."

If we think the Government of Canada won't step in to make up the shortfall, guess again!  It appears more and more that the 360 LAVs for the Canadian Army have a lot to do with making sure GDLS Canada doesn't close up shop as well as a $650 million "repayable" loan.

Quote
To help General Dynamics deal with the financial shortfall, the federal government announced on Aug. 16 that it would provide a repayable loan of up to $650 million to the company as it "navigates a challenging and dynamic international defence market," officials with Global Affairs Canada said in an email.
 
On that same date, the federal government announced its intention to acquire 360 LAVs for the Canadian Armed Forces, which already operate a fleet of older LAV models. The $1.7-billion contract was formally awarded to General Dynamics on Sept. 5.
 

This all fits with my theory that the non-payment is 100% related to the highlighted bit in yellow.

Quote
Relations between Canada and Saudi Arabia went into a tailspin in August of 2018, after a series of tweets by Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland and Global Affairs Canada criticized the arrests of women's rights activists in the kingdom and urged their immediate release.
 
Saudi Arabia expelled Canada's ambassador in Riyadh over what officials called "blatant interference in the Kingdom's domestic affairs," recalled its ambassador in Ottawa and halted all new investment and trade transactions with Canada.
 
In November of 2018, Canada imposed sanctions against 17 Saudi nationals linked to the murder of dissident Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who was killed at the kingdom's consulate in Istanbul, Turkey on Oct. 2.

Canada has a decision to make:  We can't hope to be a big manufacturing player selling weapons and military hardware to other Nations on one hand only to openly criticize those same Nations at every turn on the other hand and also try and dictate to them when, where and how they use said weapons.

Sweden operates a large and comprehensive defence industry through SAAB that makes every sort of military equipment you can imagine:  AFVs, Ships, Submarines, Radars, Rocket and Missile Systems, Aircraft, Weapons, etc.  They sell those systems to many different countries.  Nobody in the Swedish Government is going on Twitter and putting any of their business partners on sound blast while simultaneously trying to do multibillion dollar business deals with them.  Yet, nobody inside or outside Sweden is claiming there government isn't a beacon of light for progressive thought and action.

SAAB made over a $1 Billion Cdn in profit last year, NOT INCOME, PROFIT!

3]1]E0EXG$XSTO_3110&externalidexchange=EX$$$$XSTO&LanguageId=en-GB&CurrencyId=SEK&BaseCurrencyId=SEK&tab=-1&ClearXrayPortfolioManagerApiInputData=true&xid=SE0000112385]http://lt.morningstar.com/gj8uge2g9k/stockprofile/default.aspx?SecurityToken=0P0000A6J8]3]1]E0EXG$XSTO_3110&externalidexchange=EX$$$$XSTO&LanguageId=en-GB&CurrencyId=SEK&BaseCurrencyId=SEK&tab=-1&ClearXrayPortfolioManagerApiInputData=true&xid=SE0000112385

We have a lot of maturing to do as a Nation, we need to learn to "speak softly and wave a big stick" rather than our usual stance of "speaking loudly and waving a small stick".

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #170 on: October 30, 2019, 13:39:31 »
>We have a lot of maturing to do as a Nation

For selected values of "we".
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #171 on: October 30, 2019, 16:20:26 »
For those who think Canada's Allies will be jumping at the bit to help the Government of Canada impart Sunny Ways on the Saudis:

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,131409.msg1588156/topicseen.html#new

Link to Large Article: "The UK’s Secret military unit that Answers to Saudi Arabian Commanders"

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #172 on: October 30, 2019, 17:47:18 »


Canada has a decision to make:  We can't hope to be a big manufacturing player selling weapons and military hardware to other Nations on one hand only to openly criticize those same Nations at every turn on the other hand and also try and dictate to them when, where and how they use said weapons.

3]1]E0EXG$XSTO_3110&externalidexchange=EX$$$$XSTO&LanguageId=en-GB&CurrencyId=SEK&BaseCurrencyId=SEK&tab=-1&ClearXrayPortfolioManagerApiInputData=true&xid=SE0000112385]http://lt.morningstar.com/gj8uge2g9k/stockprofile/default.aspx?SecurityToken=0P0000A6J8]3]1]E0EXG$XSTO_3110&externalidexchange=EX$$$$XSTO&LanguageId=en-GB&CurrencyId=SEK&BaseCurrencyId=SEK&tab=-1&ClearXrayPortfolioManagerApiInputData=true&xid=SE0000112385

We have a lot of maturing to do as a Nation, we need to learn to "speak softly and wave a big stick" rather than our usual stance of "speaking loudly and waving a small stick".

The "virtue signaling" has to stop. JT and C Freeland make us look like idiots on the world stage.
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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #173 on: October 30, 2019, 17:50:20 »
The "virtue signaling" has to stop. JT and C Freeland make us look like idiots on the world stage.

It's all that they are capable of doing and, based on the election results from Metro Toronto,  :brickwall: it seems to work well for them.

 :stirpot:
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #174 on: October 30, 2019, 17:59:20 »
It's all that they are capable of doing and, based on the election results from Metro Toronto,  :brickwall: it seems to work well for them.

 :stirpot:

Thank you.  ;D

When the media first ran with this story my first thought was "What did you expect they'd do with them? Parade them around Riyadh or wherever?"

LAVs are made to transport people who's sole mission is to kill other people.
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