Author Topic: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels  (Read 51153 times)

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Offline CBH99

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #175 on: October 30, 2019, 18:06:01 »
I know I got roasted on this a while back, about how job losses here & there "don't really add up to much, and I'm overly concerned about it."

But it truly does add up when you have a car plant close here, another plant close there...500 families now unemployed here, another 300 families unemployed there, etc etc.




Then you look at the LAV deal with the Saudis, or the helicopter deal with Indonesia.  It really does add up.

We aren't the only country in the world that makes good armoured vehicles.  Saudi can easily purchase from a number of other countries, without the moral lectures that come from JT & company.  (And if there is one group of people who not only don't care, but will turn on you in the blink of an eye for attempting to bring up concerns about human rights, it's the Saudis.) 

Flush with cash and wanting to purchase a few hundred?  Great.  Come in.  Pay upfront.  Here's your vehicles.


If we have concerns about your f**ked up country being run by your f**ked up family, we either state so beforehand or we hold our tongue until the contract is done & funds are in place. 

(I don't disagree with Freeland btw, somebody had to speak out about the ladies who were arrested, detained, and I'm sure degraded in horrible ways, simply for speaking out against cruelty.)  But Twitter shouldn't be the mechanism of communication for politicians - it shouldn't even be the mechanism of communication for teenagers for crying out loud.



Indonesia wants 15 general utility helicopters?  Sounds good.  Here ya go.  Pay us money, and here's your helicopters.

The nonsense there was unreal.  It's a GENERAL PURPOSE UTILITY HELICOPTER based on a 50yo design at this point.  It isn't an attack helicopter by any means, and they too can (and did) just go purchase 15 general utility helicopters from someone else.  Whether they bolt some machine guns on afterwards really isn't under anybody's control except theirs, since they purchased the machines and now own them...and they can do that with literally any airframe they purchase.


I agree with the above posters.  We either manufacture arms and sell them, or we lecture other countries on how not to be total dicks.  I don't think we can really do both.  A tiny country like Sweden has a great arms industry, for a reason.

 (Another recent article which I'll find later is a Canadian company that had an order for 20,000 rifles ordered by our friends the Kurds, who ultimately couldn't export them...even though the Canadian government was open to supplying them with similar weaponry.  So they packed up shop and moved to the US to do so.)


It really adds up, and it's Canadian families who ultimately suffer the final consequences of a poor business environment.  It doesn't do much to bolster our world image either - you think Saudi Arabia gives a flying f**k what a white woman in Canada thinks?   <unintentional rant off>   :2c:
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #176 on: October 30, 2019, 18:12:13 »
Thank you.  ;D

When the media first ran with this story my first thought was "What did you expect they'd do with them? Parade them around Riyadh or wherever?"

LAVs are made to transport people who's sole mission is to kill other people.

When equipped with a 25mm bushmaster, they are also very good at killing other people in their own right  ;D

Again, we are very Naive.  Our European friends, not so much.  I personally found the BMM SANG article I posted fascinating, particularly the little tidbit from the Diplomatic Communiques almost 70 years ago:

Quote
One reason the British agreed to the Saudi request was that, “The ‘White Army’” – as the SANG was then known – “is the principal prop of the present Saudi regime, and any successor regime would be worse for our interests in the Gulf than the present one”, the foreign office noted in 1963. It added, “It is thus much to our interest that the ‘White Army’ should be efficient.”

I don't think the situation has changed radically.  While the KSA Royal Family may be pretty bad, the Regime that would succeed it without our support would be much worse.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 18:18:40 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #177 on: October 30, 2019, 18:17:42 »
SO herein lies the issues - do we stand by and lecture regimes not as liberal as ours and suffer the consequences?

There are several nations in this world that we could stand by and lecture about human rights etc - China anyone? Russia?

And Twitter should be taken off politicians phones. You don't govern or criticize via Twitter.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #178 on: October 30, 2019, 18:22:43 »
I know I got roasted on this a while back, about how job losses here & there "don't really add up to much, and I'm overly concerned about it."

But it truly does add up when you have a car plant close here, another plant close there...500 families now unemployed here, another 300 families unemployed there, etc etc.




Then you look at the LAV deal with the Saudis, or the helicopter deal with Indonesia.  It really does add up.

We aren't the only country in the world that makes good armoured vehicles.  Saudi can easily purchase from a number of other countries, without the moral lectures that come from JT & company.  (And if there is one group of people who not only don't care, but will turn on you in the blink of an eye for attempting to bring up concerns about human rights, it's the Saudis.) 

Flush with cash and wanting to purchase a few hundred?  Great.  Come in.  Pay upfront.  Here's your vehicles.


If we have concerns about your f**ked up country being run by your f**ked up family, we either state so beforehand or we hold our tongue until the contract is done & funds are in place. 

(I don't disagree with Freeland btw, somebody had to speak out about the ladies who were arrested, detained, and I'm sure degraded in horrible ways, simply for speaking out against cruelty.)  But Twitter shouldn't be the mechanism of communication for politicians - it shouldn't even be the mechanism of communication for teenagers for crying out loud.



Indonesia wants 15 general utility helicopters?  Sounds good.  Here ya go.  Pay us money, and here's your helicopters.

The nonsense there was unreal.  It's a GENERAL PURPOSE UTILITY HELICOPTER based on a 50yo design at this point.  It isn't an attack helicopter by any means, and they too can (and did) just go purchase 15 general utility helicopters from someone else.  Whether they bolt some machine guns on afterwards really isn't under anybody's control except theirs, since they purchased the machines and now own them...and they can do that with literally any airframe they purchase.


I agree with the above posters.  We either manufacture arms and sell them, or we lecture other countries on how not to be total dicks.  I don't think we can really do both.  A tiny country like Sweden has a great arms industry, for a reason.

 (Another recent article which I'll find later is a Canadian company that had an order for 20,000 rifles ordered by our friends the Kurds, who ultimately couldn't export them...even though the Canadian government was open to supplying them with similar weaponry.  So they packed up shop and moved to the US to do so.)


It really adds up, and it's Canadian families who ultimately suffer the final consequences of a poor business environment.  It doesn't do much to bolster our world image either - you think Saudi Arabia gives a flying f**k what a white woman in Canada thinks?   <unintentional rant off>   :2c:

I for one think you are on the money. I'm also a pragmatic realist though so you will find that I'm probably in the minority of the Canadian population.

You also can't think about the Factory that builds the vehicle in isolation.  GDLS themselves would have hundreds of subcontractors delivering parts and services as part of the overall project.

SO herein lies the issues - do we stand by and lecture regimes not as liberal as ours and suffer the consequences?

There are several nations in this world that we could stand by and lecture about human rights etc - China anyone? Russia?

And Twitter should be taken off politicians phones. You don't govern or criticize via Twitter.

We should probably be lecturing everyone if this is the case as there aren't many more Liberal than us.


Offline Colin P

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #179 on: October 31, 2019, 01:59:57 »
On the bright side, we can argue that the Saudi's are not really using them for fighting, but running away, generally unsuccessfully.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #180 on: October 31, 2019, 07:12:34 »
On the bright side, we can argue that the Saudi's are not really using them for fighting, but running away, generally unsuccessfully.

Touché.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #181 on: October 31, 2019, 15:37:25 »
it's unfortunate but we may never know how much damage the saudi contract may cause to us since the deal is mostly secret. The loan and the 360 LAVs I firmly believe are trying to cover up and compensate GDLS and the saudi contract falling to pieces. I welcome more kit for us, but at what cost?
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #182 on: October 31, 2019, 19:26:17 »
Should it really a secret anymore though?


The original contract had quite a bit of confidential information included in it. 

However, the Saudis have since breached that contract and have fallen a whopping $3.4B behind on payments, possibly for vehicles that were already delivered, possibly for the next batch - who knows. 

Since the contract has now been breached by the Saudis - and seriously breached at that, as $3.4B isn't exactly a mild accounting error - do the confidentiality clauses still exist if a contract was blatantly breached by the other party?



Under the circumstances, Canadians who are curious do have a right to to know the details. 

The Saudis breaching the contract and not paying $3.4B has affected government coffers in a way that they wouldn't have been affected if the contract was honoured.  The Saudis were the ones who breached the contract.

The government may, or may not, have been forced to spend additional money purchasing vehicles for the CAF that it may not have planned to spend.  (Makes sense to have a common fleet of vehicles, and the older support vehicles needed to be replaced anyway - so this may have just happened to be lucky for the CAF.)

So between the Saudis not paying $3.4B that was already agreed to, and the Government of Canada in turn spending billions it may not have planned on - the consequences of the breached contract were serious enough that I believe any confidentiality clauses would cease to be in effect.



The GoC should do a press release about the broad details.  Even something as simple as "The Saudis breached the contract and stopped making payments, so we in turn purchased the vehicles ourselves ahead of the 2022 planned timeframe in order to keep GDLS plugging along."

Whats the worst case scenario?  The Saudis try to sue the GoC for breach of contract?  Good luck with that...

Relations with the Saudis becomes testy & goes negative for a while?  Oh wait...
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #183 on: October 31, 2019, 22:01:28 »
LAV's sent to the Saudis should have backup lights.  ;D

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #185 on: November 06, 2019, 13:58:59 »
Slightly tangentially, there are some good articles out there regarding ethics and the arms trade.

My overriding impression? Use caution because 'there be dragons'....

The Ethics of the International Arms Trade

Gavin Maitland

Unless one is a pacifist there is little difficulty in theory in ethically justifying a country's
entitlement to produce or to purchase, or even to market, weapons for the preservation of
internal order or external peace. In practice, however, the international arms industry gives
considerable cause for ethical misgivings, which are here explored. It is difficult to escape
from the notion that the primary factor behind the international sale of arms is the generation
of profits. If companies are left unchecked, there is considerable evidence that companies
will exploit commercial opportunities to the detriment of ethical considerations.''

https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/4214-maitland-g-the-ethics-of-the-international-arms
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #186 on: November 06, 2019, 16:42:42 »
If Saudi doesn't want to pay up just sell the remainder to the Yemeni Rebels.

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #187 on: November 06, 2019, 17:45:07 »
If Saudi doesn't want to pay up just sell the remainder to the Yemeni Rebels.

You, Sir, are an evil genius.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #188 on: November 06, 2019, 19:17:50 »
You, Sir, are an evil genius. have alot of potential to do well in a high pressure international sales environment.

There, FTFY :)
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #189 on: November 06, 2019, 19:32:15 »
Recent big LAV deal for GDLS London to compensate for Saudis not paying?

Quote
General Dynamics is missing $1.5 billion due to a Canadian-Saudi spat
By: Aaron Mehta

 An ongoing diplomatic battle between Canada and Saudi Arabia is hitting American defense firm General Dynamics hard, to the tune of about $1.5 billion in missing payments for land vehicles sold to the kingdom.

During the company’s Oct. 23 quarterly earnings call, officials from General Dynamics revealed the roughly $1.5 billion in payments Saudi Arabia currently owes for a light armored vehicle contract run through General Dynamics Mission Systems–Canada.

More specifically, that figure stems from vehicles delivered to Saudi Arabia that have not been paid for, and the amount has grown quarter by quarter in the last year, according to General Dynamics filings. The number could grow as large as $2.6 billion given production that is already underway on vehicles not yet delivered, the company added.

In the quarterly earnings call, General Dynamics CEO Phebe Novakovic acknowledged that “the payments on our international program out of Canada have remained slow,” but stressed that “there no dispute on the fact that it is owed. It’s simply a question of timing, and we are still hopeful that we resolve that by the end of the year.”

Several industry analysts said that amount of delayed payments is unusual, with one analyst, speaking on condition of anonymity, saying the issue is having real impacts on the defense firm.

“It is doing great damage to GD. Most defense primes are up 30 to 60 percent year to date, while GD is only up 11 percent,” the analyst said. “This will be a nail-biter right to the very end.”

Technically Saudi Arabia doesn’t owe General Dynamics anything; military sales are run through the Canadian Commercial Corporation, which acts as a middle man. However, General Dynamics effectively is taking the hit, as CCC can’t pay for the vehicles if the kingdom doesn’t hand over the cash. Notably, the Canadian government last summer moved up its plans to buy its own light armored vehicles, or LAV, handing over a large advance payment to General Dynamics with that contract; while officially unrelated to the Saudi situation, this move was seen by many in Canada as CCC trying to do right by its industry partner [emphasis added]...



The LAV deal is the second of its kind signed between General Dynamics Land Systems-Canada and Saudi Arabia, with an estimated 1,400 LAVs going to Riyadh over the previous two decades. Those vehicles are equipped with a variety of weapon systems, ranging from 25mm cannons to 90mm guns.

Frozen relations

In 2014, Canada agreed to a roughly CA$14.8 billion (U.S. $11.3 billion) deal to sell to Saudi Arabia hundreds of the light armored vehicles; the exact quantities of the deal, along with many other aspects of the contract, remain secretive, but media reports suggest finalized deal may be for about 700 vehicles, with more than 200 already delivered. Despite some domestic opposition to Canadian arms sales to Saudi, the deal was upheld by the Trudeau government due to the impact on jobs.

But in August 2018, relations between Riyadh and Ottawa crumbled when Canadian officials issued statements of support for human rights activists that had been detained in Saudi Arabia. In a shockingly fast escalation, Saudi government officials quickly moved to kick out the Canadian ambassador and announced the suspension of any potential new business with Canadian firms, as well as recalling all Saudi students from Canadian universities.

That relationship remains “frozen,” said Thomas Juneau, a professor at the University of Ottawa who previously worked as an analyst with the Canadian Department of National Defence.

That’s important, he added, because of how Saudi Arabia views its defense expenditures. Certainly, there is a national defense aspect to it, but the kingdom also views large defense purchases as a key tool in creating diplomatic ties with nations.

If those diplomatic ties remain frozen, Juneau noted, spending “those billions doesn’t make sense anymore.” In fact, giving a Canadian firm all that money — and the roughly 3,000 jobs associated with it — could even be “counterproductive, to some extent,” he said.

“Given that context, it’s very, very likely to me that the main reason for that delay is the political context of Canadian-Saudi relations,” he added. “I have a very hard time conceiving of any other dominant reason why Saudi [Arabia] would be so late in the payments. It has to be because of the bilateral relationship context [emphasis added'.”..
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2019/11/06/general-dynamics-is-missing-billions-due-to-a-canadian-saudi-spat/

Mark
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Offline Shrek1985

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #190 on: November 25, 2019, 13:26:44 »
There was no way in hell the Liberals were going to do anything to hurt GDLS, even slightly before the election; now that it is over?

Canadians have ably demonstrated the willingness to forgive any Liberal misdeeds to a greater degree than ever before. If they are going to slap some wrists any do something that forces the best employer in Liberal Stronghold London to lay off some employees; now is the time.

Offline Ping Monkey

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #191 on: April 15, 2020, 10:08:29 »

Canada to resume approving military-goods exports to Saudi Arabia


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-to-lift-ban-on-export-of-military-goods-to-saudi-arabia/


Quote
The Canadian government is lifting a moratorium on approving new permits for military exports to Saudi Arabia after renegotiating some terms of a controversial $14-billion deal to sell light-armoured vehicles to Riyadh.


The government said Thursday it would begin reviewing export permit applications on a case-by-case basis, ending a ban on new permits for shipments of controlled goods to Saudi Arabia imposed in the fall of 2018. Controlled goods include military equipment such as light-armoured vehicles (LAVs) made by General Dynamics Land Systems in London, Ont., under a long-term contract brokered by the Canadian government.


The federal government also revealed for the first time that it would have been on the hook for up to $14-billion if it had cancelled the LAV contract or disclosed its terms to Canadians.


In the fall of 2018, after news broke that the Saudi government had ordered the murder of dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi, the Trudeau government announced a review of all Canada’s existing arms sales to Saudi Arabia. Ottawa also put a moratorium on new export permits for shipments of controlled goods destined for Saudi Arabia. These measures were made as Riyadh was facing mounting condemnation for the costly war it is waging in neighbouring Yemen.


This November, 2018, ban on new permits did not affect already-approved permits, so this meant shipments of greenlit military exports continued.


In late 2018, Mr. Trudeau even publicly talked about trying to find a way to end shipments of armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia.


On Thursday, however, Foreign Affairs Minister François-Philippe Champagne and Finance Minister Bill Morneau announced the suspension of approval of new permits for Saudi Arabia is now lifted. They cited a government review made public last September to tell Ottawa it had found no credible evidence linking Canadian exports of military equipment or other controlled goods to Saudi Arabian human-rights violations. The same report also advised the government that 48 export permits were ready to be signed should the government lift its moratorium.


"Following the conclusion of the review of export permits to Saudi Arabia conducted by officials from Global Affairs Canada … we have now begun reviewing permit applications on a case-by-case basis,” Mr. Champagne announced, adding later that there would be no “blank cheque” approvals.


“As always, we will ensure that they comply with the aforementioned legal requirements under Canadian law and the [global Arms Trade Treaty].”


Mr. Champagne said General Dynamics will require extensions of export permits to complete the $14-billion deal with Saudi Arabia, a transaction he said is now about 50-per-cent complete. That’s one way this resumption of permit approvals could help the company


“The company will have to submit [applications for] extensions of existing permits to be able to continue to perform under this contract,” he told reporters.


The General Dynamics factory in London is still producing LAVs. “Following critical infrastructure and essential service guidelines of the governments of Canada and Ontario we remain open and operational,” spokesman Doug Wilson-Hodge said in an e-mail.


Mr. Champagne and Mr. Morneau also announced that after a renegotiation of terms with Saudi Arabia, the Canadian government is able to be more transparent about the contract and can reveal it would face penalties of up to $14-billion, or the full value of the agreement, if it were to cancel or discuss terms of the LAV deal. The 2014 deal was signed by the Harper government but it was the Trudeau government that gave the crucial approval of the first export permits for the LAVs.


The ministers said negotiations have also secured a change ensuring that Ottawa’s “exposure to financial risk will be eliminated where future export permits are delayed or denied" if it’s ever forced to suspend, cancel or deny export permits because the LAVs are found to be used for reasons other than their defensive purpose.


The announcement Thursday was made as Canada struggles with an economic crisis caused by COVID-19, but Mr. Champagne denied the timing of Ottawa’s move on export permits to Saudi Arabia was linked to the pandemic or the volatility in oil prices related to a feud between Moscow and Riyadh.


He said he’s informing Canadians about developments because the Saudis signed the amendments to the LAV contract March 31.


The Foreign Affairs Minister rejected the notion that this represents an improvement in Ottawa-Saudi relations. “I am not sure about that. Suffice to say the human-rights’ record of Saudi Arabia remains troubling, particularly when it comes to social and political rights and women’s rights, so we will continue to advocate for human rights.”


Under Canadian law, Ottawa must deny export permits “if there is a substantial risk that the export would result in a serious violation of human rights.”


Arms control advocate Cesar Jaramillo, with Project Ploughshares, criticized the removal of the moratorium on new export permits.


“It is utterly disappointing that only days after Canada endorsed the UN Secretary-General’s call for a global ceasefire in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, Canada decides to continue arming one of the world’s worst human-rights pariahs, who is also the chief instigator of the catastrophic humanitarian crisis in neighbouring Yemen – now in its fifth year,” Mr. Jaramillo said.


“It is hard to understand how or why the prospect of economic penalties would override the Canadian government’s obligation to uphold the law, including as it relates to denials of export permits when there is a clear and present risk of misuse, as is undoubtedly the case with Saudi Arabia.”


Ottawa announced it would create an advisory panel of experts to help strengthen Canada’s arms export approval process and will push for an international inspection regime for arms sales.


This announcement was made seven months after Global Affairs told the Trudeau government it didn’t believe that Canadian exports of military gear to Saudi Arabia were being used unlawfully. This review also warned the government that a moratorium on approving exports of this sort was further damaging already depressed trade relations with the desert kingdom. In a Sept. 17, 2019, memo published on Global Affairs’ website, public servants told the government that while Saudi Arabia’s human-rights record “remains problematic,” with unlawful killings, forced disappearances and torture, Ottawa has no information or evidence linking Canadian military exports to unlawful conduct.


NDP foreign affairs critic Jack Harris panned the decision to reopen export permits. “The Conservatives started this but the fact remains, the Liberal government is sending armoured vehicles to an undemocratic authoritarian regime with a terrible human-rights record. This contract should have been cancelled. Period.”.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #192 on: April 15, 2020, 10:31:45 »
Quote
NDP foreign affairs critic Jack Harris panned the decision to reopen export permits. “The Conservatives started this but the fact remains, the Liberal government is sending armoured vehicles to an undemocratic authoritarian regime with a terrible human-rights record. This contract should have been cancelled. Period.”.


They also haven't paid their bill in awhile last i checked
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #193 on: April 15, 2020, 10:34:20 »
Sell LAVs to both sides.

Follow up on AARs after both sides clash.

Could provide valuable information if we ever find ourselves.......fighting Canadian made LAV3s.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #194 on: April 15, 2020, 11:10:00 »
Sell LAVs to both sides.

Follow up on AARs after both sides clash.

Could provide valuable information if we ever find ourselves.......fighting Canadian made LAV3s.

If the Saudi's abandon their paid for LAV's and the other side uses them I would rather see a remote self destruct capability like a thermite grenade on the engine block.

Offline CBH99

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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #195 on: April 15, 2020, 15:42:55 »

They also haven't paid their bill in awhile last i checked


As of 2 weeks ago, apparently the Saudis started sending payments again.  (I'm at work right now, but will hunt down the link a bit later tonight)
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Re: Saudis sending Canadian-made LAVs to combat Yemeni Rebels
« Reply #197 on: April 16, 2020, 12:14:46 »
If the Saudi's abandon their paid for LAV's and the other side uses them I would rather see a remote self destruct capability like a thermite grenade on the engine block.

It would make better economic sense to send a sales and tech support team :)
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