Author Topic: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes  (Read 21137 times)

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Offline Sky-Dreamer

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bonjour/hello,

French version will follow

I have just called the recruiting center in Quebec as I consider a career as a pilot. The recruiter told me that the failing rate is very high and that I should always have a B plan. Could someone told us what is the drop rate, 30%...50%?and why it is so high ?what tests trigger dropping people out of the army? Was it just because of my age (35)?

Je viens d'Appeler le centre de recrutement des forces armées parce que je veux devenir pilote. Le  recruteur m'a informé que le taux d'échec est très elevé dans cette carrière et que je dois toujours garder un plan B. C'est quoi le taux d'échec? 30%...50%? pourquoi est il si élevé? Quels tests mettent les gents à la porte ? peut çetre il m'a dit cela à cause de mon age..35..?

Merci pour vos réponses

Offline Kirtaries

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 13:33:14 »
Hello,

I believe what the recruiter is telling you is to not quit your current job or education banking on the fact that your going to be a pilot.

I am in the pilot appication process myself and I'm being held up right now due to medical reasons that I previously never even knew of!

Here is a break down based on what I gathered from others and my own experiance with the process thus far.

These are just my estimates not hard facts.

Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - Lets say a 60% pass rate for Officer Qual which you need to be a Pilot.
Aircrew Medical - Lets say 80% pass rate if you have perfect eye sight and no underlying known medical conditions.
Aircrew Selection Center Testing - With previous pilot qualification and experiance maybe a 60% pass rate and with no previous experiance roughly a 30% pass rate.
More Advanced medical screening in toronto - Not sure what the pass rate is there but it is another obstacle.
Actually being competitive enough to be offered a pilot position - Meaning if they want 10 pilots and have 30 applicants there gunna take the top 10 applicants based on there testing scores.
Passing Basic Trainning - Not sure what the failure rate is here but this could be one of the bigger obstacles depending on your determination to be in the military.
And then you have pilot training which is extreamly mentally and physically demanding.

So my estimate would be that out of every 10 people that apply roughly 3 will get the shot at going through pilot trainning!

But dont let this discourage you! Be positive and do everything in your power to make your odds of being a pilot greater!

Cheers,
Kirtaries

Offline Griffon

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2014, 13:58:43 »
You are being told that you should hae a Plan "B" in the event you do not pass pilot training.  In the event you are selected for further processing, you will have to attend Aircrew Selection in Trenton; historically, less than half of the candidates that attend Aircrew Selection pass it. If you are successful, you will be sent to Toronto for further medical evaluations, where a good number of applicants are screened out as well.  If you get through those two obstacles, then you still have to get through BMOQ, and Ph I, Ph II, Ph III, and possibly Ph IV (fast jets only) flight training.  The current pass rates used for occupation planning (which may not reflect reality) show that those selected and accepted into the CAF as a pilot have about a 50% chance of making it to wings, and that's AFTER enrolment.  The "failure rate" that the recruiter is referring to is this 50% I have outlined, coupled with the failure rate in the selection process itself.

To recap: you have a less than 1 in 2 chance of succeeding at Aircrew Selection.  If you do, and are selected, you will again be faced with a 50% chance of being successful.  If you fail out of pilot training after having attended subsidized education (i.e. ROTP, CEOTP AEAD), you will incur Obligatory Service, meaning the CAF will most likely require you to transfer to another occupation to serve that time.  This is why the recruiter recommends a Plan "B" to applicants looking to become a pilot.
Dream no small dreams for they have no power to move the hearts of men - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Offline Sky-Dreamer

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2014, 17:24:35 »
thank you guys for replying ..this helps a lot..

Another question... is there a problem with lasik eye surgery...

I did it in the lasik MD clinics.. It is mentioned that 'some' refractive corrections are correct , and so are eye glasses..

is it ok for the lasik surgery to be a pilot ?

Offline Mab163

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 12:13:01 »
thank you guys for replying ..this helps a lot..

Another question... is there a problem with lasik eye surgery...

I did it in the lasik MD clinics.. It is mentioned that 'some' refractive corrections are correct , and so are eye glasses..

is it ok for the lasik surgery to be a pilot ?

I believe lasik surgery is now accepted for pilot. My room mate in Toronto for the medical tests at DRDC had lasik surgery and he got accepted. However, they check your surgery to be sure it's okay.

About the failure/passing rate for pilot, here's a copy/paste of another post about this subject:

''It varies, and I can't speak for ratios of applicants to recruitment offers, but post CFRC, here's what I saw during my training.

Pre Flt trg - 40% pass rate (basic trg, etc...)
Ph 1 - 25% pass rate
Ph 2 - 60% pass rate
Ph 3 - 85% pass rate
A/C  - 100% pass rate (I was 1/1 ;) )

Total = 0.051:1 probability, or 20:1 odds against, once you get through the Recruiting Center. ''

Offline Messerschmitt

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 01:01:52 »
The statistics are not as grim as they ought to be.

This is from my own experience during my process.

-Air crew selection pass rate was somewhere lower than 50%.
-Basic training was roughly 80 to 90% pass rate (highest dropout is due to injury which I was "this" close to become a statistic because of it).
-Phase 1 pass rate was roughly 85% based on the previous course and my course. This did not include a few candidates who had to be recoursed due to medical/personal reasons. Instructors mentioned a historical 30% average fail rate.
-Phase 2 and 3 I have yet to see

It's true that overall probably 50% make it. However, pilots are not the only trade with high failure rate. From what I have heard, AEC's have somewhere 80% failure rate, with highest being air weapon systems and lowest (naturally) being the VFR. ACSO's also have it hard (not sure the pass rate).

Heck, I heard infantry pass rate was below 50%. So yea, there are quite a number of trades where failure rates are high.

Just keep up and try to do your best. That's what I'm trying to do.
Good luck!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 01:05:58 by Messerschmitt »

Offline Gunshark

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 16:58:09 »
I wouldn’t focus too much on any specific numbers. (But if you did want numbers, I think Messerschmitt’s numbers look about right.) Let me describe to you in more general terms the process (including potential spots for failure, since you asked), from my own research and experience. I am still a pilot applicant myself and have been in this process for quite a while. So I might as well try to help you (if you're coming back to this forum) and others in the mean time.

The ‘failing rate’ all depends on where you start counting the failures. There are people who want to be pilots who do not score high enough on the CFAT, which is the first thing you do after you submit your paperwork. Though if you are reasonably good at things like math, logic, problem solving, visualization, you should be alright. Good news is that you can prepare for this test to a certain extent. You cannot control the personality assessment part (TSD) that you fill out at the time of your CFAT, so don’t worry about that.

Next, if you don’t pass a reliability/reference/credit check, you may be disqualified or introduce a delay into your application until you resolve the issue. If you’ve kept a good character, been paying your bills, and haven’t robbed a bank some time in the past, you should be fine.

Next, a medical issue can be discovered during your medical or extended medical (additional tests that you do on your own), which can set you back or disqualify you. If you’re generally healthy, and don’t have anything out of the ordinary medically speaking, you are at good odds to go through. But you won’t know for sure until you do this.

Next, you may score low in your interview, which may put you at a disadvantage against other applicants. However, if you prepare well and have a solid resume, chances are you won’t have a problem with this. You can always improve your resume in the mean time by doing some leadership activities for example, etc.

The above steps (CFAT, TSD, reliability check, medical, interview) are more or less the standard steps, and you have a good chance of making it though them all, and even competitively. There is plenty of information on this forum on what you can do to prepare and help your chances to do well. If you have passed all these steps without trouble, you get scheduled for the aircrew selection test in Trenton.

Now this aircrew selection test is where you will be challenged, and I mean it. Historically, the average pass rate is about half, and that has been my experience when I did it. The dream will not die if you fail. You can do it up to 3 times, with a year wait in-between, if you wish. I would say this test is the toughest part of recruitment. Someone mentioned flying experience and its connection to this test. Some flying experience may have been beneficial back when this test was done in a flight simulator (CAPSS), but it has since been changed to a computerized test. You don’t need flight experience for it. But you will see some flight instruments in the test study guide, so… Take good note, and do with that information what you will!

If you pass aircrew selection, right away you go to Toronto for a more comprehensive medical exam and body measurements. Occasionally, people have been removed from pilot selection at this step, but again, you will not really know until you do it, so there’s no reason to worry about it. If you are exceptionally tall or have exceptionally long torso or legs, you can chat with the recruiter to get an idea if this may be a problem. (You need to fit properly in the cockpit of the training and operational aircraft.)

After you have done all that, your medical papers will be examined, and what’s known as your Air Factor will be sent to your recruiting centre within some time. You need an Air Factor of 1 to qualify for pilot. Once you are awarded this AF, you will be merit listed. At this point you officially enter the pool of candidates (the merit list) from whom the CAF selects applicants to award job offers. Chances are, this merit list will contain more candidates than job offers, and only top applicants will get selected. I believe your applicant score is composed from scores from your CFAT, TSD, interview, and aircrew selection test, so it’s important to do well on everything. But it still seems to be a mystery how exactly each part is weighted.

If you are merit listed, but not selected, not all is lost. You can wait and see if you make the next selection, or the next, and discuss your file with the recruiting centre in the mean time. Selections are not usually ongoing. They seem to happen only several times a year.

If you receive an offer, you go to BMOQ (basic training). Now I can’t say how tough it actually is because I haven’t done it, and I am going to assume very tough indeed, but presumably it will not be the toughest part of your career. It may help take comfort in the fact that thousands of officer candidates have taken and passed BMOQ.

Now you’re onto flight training, which will consist of Phase I, II, and III (among some other things). I have heard that the pass rate for Phase I can vary quite a bit. You can have the whole class pass or only say half. I have heard that this is the phase where you really get to find out if you are going to generally grasp flying or not. This is the phase with the highest fail rate, whatever that rate may be these days. Phase II will see a lot less people failing, and Phase III even less. From what I gather, the instructors are not out to get you, but help you to pass as much as they can.

If you are a direct entry officer (DEO), should you fail any of the flight phases, I believe you can either release or see if you can go into a different trade, depending on what you qualify for and what is available at the time (this is important for career planning, and should be double-checked with recruiter). If the military has paid for your education (e.g. ROTP entry plan), I am assuming it won’t be as easy to release, but I don’t really know anything about that as I am applying DEO.

While you should be success-driven, having some kind of Plan B is not a bad idea in my opinion when you’re applying for pilot. Have some other trades in mind that you think would suit you. As for vision, when I asked a flight surgeon what happens if vision deteriorates during service, she just said to get lasik, as if it was no big deal haha. As for age, I have been told multiple times that age is not a factor as long as you are meeting all standards. Just do your very best, always.

Finally, keep in mind this is quite a lengthy process. Your patience and motivation will be tested. The wait and especially the uncertainty are perhaps the toughest tests of all. From first application to BMOQ can take you under a year if you’re lucky, or more likely over a year. If will depend on how smoothly your process goes. For example, if you fail aircrew selection and wish to retry in one year, naturally you will extend your recruitment process by quite a bit. Also, some things become obsolete (e.g. your medical expired after one year), so if you are still in recruitment process, you will need to redo them. But don’t think like that. Full steam ahead and no regrets!

There are some good threads on this site on aircrew selection, pilot career progression, etc. Do some searching and you should find all this and other good info. I described the process here in one place so hopefully it helps new candidates like yourself to get started. (If I have made a mistake somewhere, someone feel free to correct me.) Good luck.

Mods, this thread should probably be merged with the ‘So You Want to Be A Pilot’ thread?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 09:40:24 by Gunshark »

Offline sonic

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2016, 21:07:22 »
Curious! what are some of the common reasons why people fail in phase 1 and 2 of pilot training ?

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2016, 21:28:08 »
Curious! what are some of the common reasons why people fail in phase 1 and 2 of pilot training ?

Lack of aptitude or an inability to react/adjust with the required pace of learning/adaptation.

Offline sonic

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2016, 21:50:12 »
Lack of aptitude or an inability to react/adjust with the required pace of learning/adaptation.

Will getting private flying lessons help improve the chances ?

Offline Loachman

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2016, 22:00:59 »
That has been discussed to death here. They may, they may not, they may reduce one's chance of success.

Offline Downhiller229

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2016, 23:38:19 »
In my brief experience, people unable to compartmentalize stress and expectations did very poorly. Moreso then the not naturally talented ones.

Offline sonic

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 13:20:24 »
In my brief experience, people unable to compartmentalize stress and expectations did very poorly. Moreso then the not naturally talented ones.

Thank you Downhiller. Thats what I was wondering about, is it pure flying talent or overall aptitude that leads to ultimate success. Thank you again.

Offline airforce101

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2016, 12:57:00 »
Curious! what are some of the common reasons why people fail in phase 1 and 2 of pilot training ?

People who fail the phase one are who do not have natural abilities to perform as a pilot. they could b super smart in school but being a pilot multi tasking and hands on job. multi tasking doesn't mean doing everything at the same time, its about prioritizing the tasks.
Most of the people failing flight trainings are in the flying portions, a very few fail the ground school. following are the few things told by a flight instructor that fail ppl.
1. Landing
2. Emergency procedures
3. Landings with simulated engine fail.
4. Formation flights(phase 2)
and panicking where you need to be calm and follow the procedures.etc

Offline airforce101

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2016, 13:01:12 »
Will getting private flying lessons help improve the chances ?

I would say having flying experience before flight training is almost a must. In private training u can make all the mistakes and learn without having a pressure of failing the course. And u can b comfortable with flying specially landing and emergency procedures. If u fail the PFT u have to come back with the CPL. PFT u get 15 hrs with the instructor if he doesn't think u can go solo u r out.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2016, 15:41:34 »
When I did Primary Flying Training a few decades ago, it was not really considered to be "training", but an extension of the selection process. None of what we learned in Portage was directly transferable to the Tutor in Moose Jaw.

Crosswind landings got a bunch of guys on my course; they were taught early in the course (January) when we had dead calm winds, which persisted right up until many guys were doing their Final Clearhood Test (FCHT) and crosswinds were barely within student limits. Nobody had a chance to do any real crosswind landings prior to that.

Aerobatics nailed a few as well - they, like most of the rest of the flying portion, are exercises in co-ordination.

Bad luck and factors beyond your control can trip you as well - see "crosswind landings". Instructor-student relationship is important. Not everybody works well with everybody else. Not everybody who could/should pass does. We had guys fly well during lessons, but freeze during tests. There is pressure to perform and to succeed, but relaxing and enjoying what you are doing (admittedly not easy) can help.

As for previous flying lessons, see replies 9 and 10 above, and the other, longer, Pilot thread. You may learn something useful, and you may also learn some bad habits that can trip you up (I instructed for a little over three years and saw how difficult it is for people to break habits and learn the way that we want them to do something). If you want to get a private pilot licence, get a private pilot licence, but otherwise, you may just be wasting your money. Plenty of people pass with no previous time, and plenty of people fail with previous time - including one guy with a commercial licence a course or two behind me in Moose Jaw.

The goal is not to train people to fly, but to produce Pilots for the CF that meet the standard within the time and budget allotted. There is a difference. Passing depends on your ability to learn at the expected rate, perform to the expected standard, and some good fortune.

The only factor completely within your control is the effort that you put in. Study hard. Ask questions. Know your stuff completely.

Quote

u ... u can b ... u ... u ... u ... u ... u r ...

"You" ... "you can be" ... "you" ... "you" ... "you" ... "you" ... "you are" ...

Proper English, please.

Offline Downhiller229

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2016, 18:48:18 »

I would say having flying experience before flight training is almost a must. In private training u can make all the mistakes and learn without having a pressure of failing the course. And u can b comfortable with flying specially landing and emergency procedures. If u fail the PFT u have to come back with the CPL. PFT u get 15 hrs with the instructor if he doesn't think u can go solo u r out.

Previous flying experience is most certainly NOT a must. People have different strength and weaknesses and different ways to learn.

As Loachman said it can be hard breaking habits from learning on the civy side, I certainly experienced that having a CPL coming in.

My main advice as always is, don't take yourself too seriously

Offline Loachman

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Re: Failing rate for pilots/taux d'échecs pour les pilotes
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2016, 05:18:38 »
And the commercial-licenced guy that I mentioned was utterly convinced that he would top his course due to his experience, too.

Arrogance and/or complacency may, as a result, have contributed to his failure. Under-performing should have disabused him of his flawed notion of invincibility, but perhaps too late to correct his errors.

Confidence is great. Over-confidence is not, any more than under-confidence is.

Whenever I find myself struggling with something, I tell myself that "dumber people than me have been able to do this". I remain aware, however, that smarter people than me sometimes could not.