Author Topic: Meanwhile back at the perpetually offended tent/Infidel tattoo questions  (Read 6029 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Fishbone Jones

    MSC -5620.

  • "Some people will only like you if you fit inside their box. Don't be afraid to shove that box up their ass."
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 277,312
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,587
    • Army.ca
Quote
"I have no hard feelings about this guy if he's not an Islamaphobe," Hutten said. "I don't want him fired, but he shouldn't be wearing that tattoo in public."

Says Mr Judge, Jury and Executioner.

How have we reached the spot where a single individual can ruin a career and become an internet celebrity, by doxxing someone because of a tattoo that hurt his feelings and he went off half cocked without knowing the background, use or origin.? :facepalm:

Not including all the wasted time and manpower in the CoC, DJAG, press, etc investigating this.

Another word wiped from language and use, because it's deemed offensive by a single individual.
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 190,580
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,216
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Says Mr Judge, Jury and Executioner.

How have we reached the spot where a single individual can ruin a career and become an internet celebrity, by doxxing someone because of a tattoo that hurt his feelings and he went off half cocked without knowing the background, use or origin.? :facepalm:

Not including all the wasted time and manpower in the CoC, DJAG, press, etc investigating this.

Another word wiped from language and use, because it's deemed offensive by a single individual.

With respect--and at the risk of becoming embroiled in a thread I wanted no part of--I think that you are missing the target here.

It's not so much whether one person was offended or not but what is the person with the tattoo trying to say. I firmly believe in freedom of expression but with that freedom comes the countervailing fact that when you are expressing yourself then you are sending a message that you want others to receive. So my question is: what message is this sailor trying to convey by virtue of dedicating a fairly large patch of publicly viewable skin to a permanent marking that says "Infidel" in the shape of an automatic rifle?

No matter which way you cut it, he's either being subtlety or blatantly intolerant of something or just plain immature. The fact that some people might be offended by this is hardly surprising; neither is the fact that there are some people who would fight to the death to support his right to express himself this way. And it probably surprises no one that I stand in the middle: I'm neither outraged by nor supportive of the tattoo, however, I think that anyone who has one like this should not be surprised in the least by the fact that the chain of command will want to investigate his motives and level of common sense and make their own determination of whether or not he's what the military is about in this day and age.

 :2c:
+600
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 288,681
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,785
Quote from: FJAG
So my question is: what message is this sailor trying to convey by virtue of dedicating a fairly large patch of publicly viewable skin to a permanent marking that says "Infidel" in the shape of an automatic rifle?
Well, he IS an infidel who carried an AR15.

There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Cloud Cover

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 37,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,053
It's actually what is the person intending to communicate, and whether that communication violates some established rules based order that is lawful. Any civilian can have that tattoo. Since a person's skin is not owned by the CAF, the tattoo is not an adornment on a uniform. It is not part of the uniform. It appears to be part of a "creed",  the interpretation of which is subjective and not necessarily designed or intended  to be offensive, racist, intimidating or blasphemous.  It may be all of those things to some people, but that's just too bad for them if the creed is bona fide. In the same manner the CF must accommodate religion with uniforms  and gender (and gender choice) with requested accommodations, they must accommodate creed. It isn't optional.

Edited for spelling and clarity.
+300 « Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 13:18:32 by Cloud Cover »
Living the lean life

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 500,935
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,261
    • The job.
Any civilian can have that tattoo.

Where I worked, before I retired, ALL tattoos had to be covered.

Long-sleeve shirts in July and August.

Now, departmental policy is, "Tattoos depicting nudity, obscenity, racial, sexual, political or social bias must be covered."

That's with a union. AFTER you get hired. After you are off probation.

In our business, it doesn't matter how well we do our job; if a member of the public feels our self-expression comes off as offensive, we are of no use to them.

The barometer was pretty simple.  How would people, especially senior citizens, feel with us coming into their homes.

For Dispatchers, it was less of a concern.

Quote
Canada: Can An Employer Prohibit Tattoos And Piercings?

The answer on hiring is simple and straightforward – an employer can legally choose not to hire based on any (visible) tattoos or piercings. There would be no violation of the Human Rights Act and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not relevant. This simple statement applies whether it is a unionized workplace or a union free workplace
http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/460616/employee+rights+labour+relations/Can+An+Employer+Prohibit+Tattoos+And+Piercings
The situation is more complicated after an employee has been hired. Here the employer's rights differ greatly depending on whether it is a unionized workplace or a non-union workplace.

As noted, the rules differ once an individual is hired depending upon whether it is a unionized workplace or not.

Best bet is to wait until AFTER you get your union card.

Edit for spelling.









« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 16:22:13 by mariomike »

Offline Cloud Cover

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 37,920
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,053
I see police officers, paramedics, firefighters with exposed tattoos all the time, including police officers in Toronto on bike patrol. Maybe there is a policy stating these must be covered, but whether that is enforceable at all in say, a disciplinary setting, is quite different than just having a written policy.

You might also take note that in the absence of a union (which has a grievance system and a right to fair representation), a non-union employer will receive much more scrutiny in order to  assess their disciplinary actions. 
Living the lean life

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 500,935
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,261
    • The job.
, a non-union employer will receive much more scrutiny in order to  assess their disciplinary actions.

Scrutiny from whom?

Quote
The answer on hiring is simple and straightforward – an employer can legally choose not to hire based on any (visible) tattoos or piercings. There would be no violation of the Human Rights Act and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not relevant. This simple statement applies whether it is a unionized workplace or a union free workplace

Non-union workplace

Here there are no legal restrictions on prohibitions by employers against tattoos and piercings. Simply put the employer's rights are as broad as noted above with respect to hiring.

That is from the above Canadian source.

Also this. From another Canadian source. Something to consider if changing employers,

Quote
So long as the tattoos or piercings are not part of an ethnic, religious or tribal custom, the Human Rights Act and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms do not apply to employers’ hiring choices with regards to body modifications.
https://www.kcyatlaw.ca/tattoos-piercings-workplace-canada/

This can also be a hiring factor,

"Distinguish between employee roles (i.e. those that do and do not interact with customers or clients)"

eg: A call-centre or warehouse etc.

I see police officers, paramedics, firefighters with exposed tattoos all the time, including police officers in Toronto on bike patrol. Maybe there is a policy stating these must be covered, but whether that is enforceable at all in say, a disciplinary setting, is quite different than just having a written policy.

I would guess most waited until after  they got hired. That's the conventional advice to candidates.

After they get on the job, I think covering and discipline depends on individual circumstances. Being unionised, there is also a grievance and arbitration process.

Trivia,

( Most probably would not remember, but it wasn't so long ago that all Metro officers - with or without tattoos - wore long-sleeved shirts all summer. And that was before their cars had air-conditioning! )







« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 18:55:52 by mariomike »

Offline Brad Sallows

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 66,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,759
Well, find a nordic ancestor and go nuts with your Viking tribal customs.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 217,832
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,447
People from my ancestral area of origin (Norfolk/East Anglia) either beat up the locals or were beaten up by the "migrants" prior to eventually intermingling and crossbreeding over a millennium ago, so I probably could "go nuts".

I have some ideas in mind - perhaps a C7 composed of the word "Pride" (thanks, Jarnhamar - excellent suggestion; it reclaims "pride" as well) crossing a dripping bearded axe - but lack any interest in acquiring a tattoo.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 23:51:49 by Loachman »

Offline X Royal

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 20,180
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 587
"deemed to be"   Who doesn't love being put into a Orwellian scenario??
Meaning changes greatly when you drop the first part of the quote.
It said "that could be deemed to be offensive".
The "that could be" changes the whole meaning. Far more inclusive.
But for some reason you knew that.
+300 « Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:15:24 by X Royal »

Offline Chief Engineer

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 741,367
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,990
I think the moral of this story is that a tattoo that you gotten with the best of intentions at the time could very well come back to haunt you years later. Our ship just came back from Fleet Week in New York where a sizeable amount of our sailors got tattoos some free because it was part of a Fleet Week promotion. I wonder in 10 years time could some of these tattoos could be deemed offensive and come back to haunt them.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

كافر

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

    Is a pinball wizard.

  • Lab Experiment #13
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 248,830
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,900
  • WHERE IS MY BATON?
    • http://www.canadianbands.com./home.html
Meaning changes greatly when you drop the first part of the quote.
It said "that could be deemed to be offensive".
The "that could be" changes the whole meaning. Far more inclusive.
But for some reason you knew that.

Actually it doesn't change a thing....makes it even more ambiguous.   I could be a rock star,...I'm not, but "could be".   What???
Floating goal posts....so good when you'd rather "call for an investigation" rather then deal with it at your leadership level..
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 288,681
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,785
I personally think this incident is another example of someone looking for something "Islamophobic" to be offended about and start a witch hunt over.


There are no wolves on Fenris

Online AbdullahD

    update status.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 25,335
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 468
I personally think this incident is another example of someone looking for something "Islamophobic" to be offended about and start a witch hunt over.

Nah, this is a great post of idiocy on all sides.

People need to go live their lives not exist in them and these silly issues will not be a big deal.

This sailor didn't hurt anyone, we are all spending a lot of energy wondering his motives. Why not just ask him and leave it at that? And who cares if he is an islamophobe. We can draw our own personal conclusions what that will mean about him.

Instead we all pontificate (current favorite word lol) about this that and the next thing.

Abdullah

P.s not necessarily meaning members here, but in a general sense.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

    Is a pinball wizard.

  • Lab Experiment #13
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 248,830
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,900
  • WHERE IS MY BATON?
    • http://www.canadianbands.com./home.html
People need to go live their lives not exist in them and these silly issues will not be a big deal.

Truly unfortunate, but that ship has sailed, aided by a more then willing media, since outrage sells.  200 people protest, top story, 200 million shrug their shoulders and go to work??    Crickets....
+300
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 190,580
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,216
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
+900
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/