Author Topic: CF moving to Multicam?  (Read 29145 times)

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Offline FSTO

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2017, 22:33:56 »
There was a saying when I was in the army...

"No inspection-ready unit will likely pass combat, and no combat-ready unit will likely pass an inspection".

I've done CofC parades in combat w/FFO.

Just because these "traditions" are part of the Army does not mean they have to leak over into the RCN. I have no snappy sayings to counteract your Army mantra, I just feel in my bones that the creeping leisure suit Larry look has no place in the Navy when we're ashore.

 :salute:


Offline MilEME09

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2017, 00:15:45 »
That would never happen if we didn't keep trying to parade in clothing that was never supposed to be used for parades!  There is NO good reason for any unit to "parade" in operational clothing.  Just as there is no good reason for anyone to wear operational clothing in climate-controlled offices in Canada.  Perhaps if we only used operational clothing for the purposes for which it was designed (field/sea operations) than we wouldn't have the shortages we do with desk officers wearing out our most expensive clothing while sitting at a computer in Ottawa.
So a return of Garrison dress?

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2017, 01:33:11 »
So a return of Garrison dress?

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Now that I'll never ever have to wear it again, I say go for it!
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2017, 02:02:57 »
Just because these "traditions" are part of the Army does not mean they have to leak over into the RCN. I have no snappy sayings to counteract your Army mantra, I just feel in my bones that the creeping leisure suit Larry look has no place in the Navy when we're ashore.

 :salute:

I must admit that I think it's stupid (and somewhat disrespectful) to parade the colours in combat/Cadpat gear. Unless you're in a theatre of operations I guess.

I assume that it's a bad habit we've acquired from Uncle Sam. Good thing we don't have helmet liners anymore or I assume we'd be polishing those too, instead of our boots and the rocks :)

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Happy Guy

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2017, 06:30:58 »
When I joined the CF, over 34 years ago, all parades were done in CF greens and forage caps.  We never wore combats while on a formal parade.  The default these days to wear operational dress for almost all occasions really bothers me. We now have an entire generation of soldiers (I don't know about the Navy or AF) who probably don't even know how to wear the DEUs properly.  I was at CFSU(O) Clothing Stores several years ago and an Army Cpl didn't know which direction the CD should be while wearing undressed ribbons. The group that she was with didn't know either.  I had to show her and her friends.

At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur, I was an NCO not so long ago, I am deeply disappointed at the slovenly dress standards today.  Members wearing wrinkled CADPAT uniforms with scrunched name tags and flags.  People wear poorly ironed shirts and boots/shoes with no effort to even brush shine them.  No one seems to respect the uniform that they are wearing these days. SrNCOs not doing their jobs to enforce dress discipline and young Officers flaunting the dress regulations gets me upset.  Although I shall be retiring soon, I still make a conscientious effort to ensure that my uniforms are clean, tidy and presentable in the streets.  Yes, I try to look presentable while I wear civilian clothes too but this is more to please my wife than the general public.

Sigh, ... I'm a cranky old soon to be pensioned dinosaur.

Cheers



Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2017, 07:43:06 »
SrNCOs not doing their jobs to enforce dress discipline...

Why do people always point to the Sgts and never the Warrant Officers?

I see 2 different but related problems with the standard of dress seen these days:

1.  Self-discipline; the levels are down (doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, when no one is watching).  And not just the jnr ranks, either.  I see as many shitpump uniforms on Junior Officers as I do Jnr ranks (Avr - MCpl).

2.  Enforcement of standards;  this is not just a Snr NCO problem (Warrant Officers are not Snr NCOs, the same as OCdt's are not Jnr Officers.  Yes, there's a big deal and yes, people still want to kick others who let things like this go because ""its not important").  Cpl's are Jnr NCOs, the same as MCpl's are.  If I see an Avr out of dress, who am I going to correct?  I am going to find the MCpl on his/her crew and talk to them.  They should then speak to the Cpl on his/her crew, who should pull the Avr aside.  If its bad enough, sure I will correct on the spot but I am still going to find that MCpl.  If I don't MAKE the Cpl do his job and MAKE the MCpl do their job, and let them know, yes I AM watching, what is the motivation for them to do it, all the time?  It used to be a different thing, but I refer you to Point #1 above.

This goes for Officers as well.  If you see people in your unit lines that look like they ironed their 3B, as an example, with a cold potato...well, you have a unit Warrant Officer of some kind to handle that if they are NCMs.  If they are Officers and subordinates, deal with it yourself, go to the unit Adjt or whoever is the *hammer* in the Jnr Officer world.  If they are senior to you, well deal with it the best way you can.  Maybe talk to the MWO, who will talk to the DCO or something and then the message gets sent out to everyone.  Personally, I have no issues at all telling a Jnr Officer they are doing something contrary to CF/RCAF/Wing/Sqn Dress Instructions.  There is a professional way to do it, of course, but it has and likely will happen again and is usually worded as a suggestion. 

If dress and deportment standards are that atrocious at a unit anyone is in, and you are a minimum rank of Jnr NCO (Cpl), then that is a leadership issue that you need to be part of the solution to.  If the MCpls and Lt's are all walking around like bags of crap, then that suggests to me that the Sgts and Capt's aren't doing their jobs as superiors. 

** reference for my "Warrant Officers are not Snr NCOs" comment.  QR & O, Vol 1, Chap 1, Art 1.02 'Definitions'

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;

and CAF Rank & Appointment Insignia

Dress and deportment aren't the only things that have seen a drop in the standard;  GSK (General Service Knowledge) has as well.  Like referring to anyone in the NCM Corps above the rank of Sgt/P02 as a SNCO. 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 08:44:45 by Eye In The Sky »
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jollyjacktar

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2017, 08:18:48 »
Why do people always point to the Sgts and never the Warrant Officers?

Cuz Sgts are the backbone of the organization.

jollyjacktar

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2017, 08:20:10 »
Sigh, ... I'm a cranky old soon to be pensioned dinosaur.

You'll need to change your moniker then, me thinks.   ;)

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2017, 09:16:16 »
Generally, in Commonwealth and other Armed Forces, today's service dress uniform was yesterday's combat uniform. The predecessor units of the one on parade in the preceding photograph once fought in the same scarlets as the band is wearing, which was subsequently replaced with khaki drab service dress for field use. Tomorrow's field uniform will likely be form-fitting spandex with a powered armored exoskeleton and modular built-in radios, sensors, and weapons, and automatic chameleon camouflage, whereupon today's CADPAT will become the dress uniform.


*mind blown*
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2017, 09:16:37 »
When I joined the CF, over 34 years ago, all parades were done in CF greens and forage caps.  We never wore combats while on a formal parade.

I joined the CF over 26 years ago, and my sense at that time was that dress for parades seemed to be very much unit dependent. The Canadian Airborne Regiment seemed to rarely wear CFs (or later DEU), while the battalions of The RCR were bringing dress uniforms and colours for parades while deployed on operations in Cyprus.

I've suggested in the past that we should readopt Battle Dress (in appropriate modern synthetic fabrics) to fill the niche that was supposed to be filled by Garrison Dress -- a uniform cheaper and better looking than Combat Uniform but still durable enough for routine garrison work (have you ever crawled under a desk to reattach a disconnected printer cable while in DEU 3B? I have, and you don't resurface looking ready for parade).

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2017, 09:55:51 »
(have you ever crawled under a desk to reattach a disconnected printer cable while in DEU 3B? I have, and you don't resurface looking ready for parade).

OK. I just have to intervene here.

First, are you seriously suggesting that the one time in your life (Ok, maybe two or three out of a 26 years career) that you had to get under your desk to reattach a cable justifies dressing sloppily in CADPAT or acquiring a "garrison" dress of sorts?

Second, even while working at desk jobs in DEU, nobody is suggesting that you should be as spit and polish as if you were about to step on parade. There is the daily standard (and I have said it before - the standard is following good business attire practices from the professionals in your city, and no, I don't count engineers and software coders as professionals  ;D) which is clean, generally pressed and shoes black and clean - not necessarily "spit-shinned", and then there is the parade level for parades and important functions which has all the polish and crisp press in the world.

Finally, and I know this is something else the Navy is anal retentive about ... but have you considered getting your office cleaned properly by the personnel responsible for cleaning it up?  You know, regular cleaning stations of everything, over, under and all nook and crannies followed by an inspection, flashlight in hand, and perhaps a Captain's inspection from time to time! Then you could go under your desk occasionally without coming out covered in dust  [:D.

Offline Happy Guy

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2017, 14:44:54 »
I have reattached a cable underneath my desk while in DEU 3B.  I placed a couple of paper towels on the carpet to protect my pants.  When I got up I straighten my pants and shirt and I looked fine.

What you seem to be advocating is a return to a work dress uniform which I used to call the bus driver uniform.  I wore work dress while I posted in Calgary and garrison dress while I was working at LFCHQ St Hubert.  It was functional if you worked in an office environment or warehouse.  The problem with the work dress was that you didn't look military.  I do not want a return to a work dress type uniform because of the high cost, and we (the CAF) are frankly not capable of designing a uniform that is functional, comfortable, stylish and sufficiently military looking.  I believe that the Army made a bad style and comfort choice when we got rid of the CF Greens and accepted the DEUs.  A return to more universally recognized khaki brown uniform with a more modern cut would have been better.

I'm with OGBD here, what we have now is fine.  Leave it alone.

Back on topic, I'll agree that further analysis is required.  I've seen the British, US Army and USMC versions of the MultiCam and I have no idea which of these cam patterns will suit our requirements.  I think that if we do change the Army operational dress please re-look at the design of the uniform and not just the cam pattern.  Get rid of the velcro as much as you can!  Give me buttons for my pockets any day.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2017, 14:56:31 »
But...what would we do with the patches everyone is sporting now?

It might be out officially now;  RCAF pers will be allowed to wear sqn patches, skill/qual badges, etc on their CADPAT now. 
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2017, 14:58:01 »
But...what would we do with the patches everyone is sporting now?

It might be out officially now;  RCAF pers will be allowed to wear sqn patches, skill/qual badges, etc on their CADPAT now.
I have started seeing senior officers wearing Div patches so im not surprised.

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2017, 18:16:11 »
you seem to be advocating is a return to a work dress uniform which I used to call the bus driver uniform.  I wore work dress while I posted in Calgary and garrison dress while I was working at LFCHQ St Hubert.  It was functional if you worked in an office environment or warehouse.  The problem with the work dress was that you didn't look military.  I do not want a return to a work dress type uniform because of the high cost, and we (the CAF) are frankly not capable of designing a uniform that is functional, comfortable, stylish and sufficiently military looking.  I believe that the Army made a bad style and comfort choice when we got rid of the CF Greens and accepted the DEUs.  A return to more universally recognized khaki brown uniform with a more modern cut would have been better.

Well....If having Work Dress pants and boots bloused doesn't look military, I don't know what would.  I guess you will win the argument though, as there seems to be a shortage of boots.   >:D
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2017, 18:19:41 »
Well....If having Work Dress pants and boots bloused doesn't look military, I don't know what would.  I guess you will win the argument though, as there seems to be a shortage of boots.   >:D

Work dress looked like a bus driver or possibly a gas station attendant.  With addition of the ascot, I'm at a loss for words for a description...
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2017, 18:31:58 »
Work dress looked like a bus driver or possibly a gas station attendant.  With addition of the ascot, I'm at a loss for words for a description...

I was living on a Radar Base in Saskatchewan when Work Dress came out.  Airmen never had Cbt Boots, so ankle boots were the order of the day.  With the initial issue, there was also a ball cap.  In those days, they didn't look much like bus drivers to me, although that is what they later became known as; but more like the local farmers out in the wheat fields.  They fit right in at the local Seed Mills and Grain Elevators. 

Perhaps we should bring back the pants, bloused of course, and Red T-shirts with unit crests on the Left Breast.  Commanders would wear orange T-shirts, Engineers wear yellow, Medical wear green......etc.  With the trend to go "retro" lately, this would take us back to the '60's and fit right in.....and should last us until Star Date 2050.
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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2017, 19:33:01 »
I was posted to my first regiment in 1980.  We had a routine on Fridays of parade, maintenance morning, sports afternoon, refreshments at the Jolly Miller.  Only one parade a month was in "greens", the other three were in varying orders of dress, combat and work dress. These were very much formal parades, 0700 weapons draw, fall in in front of the barracks, markers called, march on your markers, the lot. Daily dress was combat with regimental tee shirt underneath.  This was 37 years ago, but then us 1 CBG guys were always non conformists.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 19:56:41 by Kat Stevens »
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Offline MCG

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2017, 19:52:03 »
Work dress looked like a bus driver or possibly a gas station attendant.  With addition of the ascot, I'm at a loss for words for a description...
Google can help you with that:

jollyjacktar

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2017, 20:07:04 »
If that doesn't just scream "pump jockey", nothing will.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2017, 20:07:47 »
I dunno.. the first google image when I type "CF work dress ascot" is below; given the odd headdress I'm thinking it must be some Reserve highland regiment...

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2017, 20:15:33 »
Hmmmm?  dapaterson's version of "CF work dress ascot" does look like a promising proposal, for non-male members who identify with this gender (Being non-gender specific in this discussion.).     :warstory:
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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2017, 23:01:56 »
I must admit that I think it's stupid (and somewhat disrespectful) to parade the colours in combat/Cadpat gear. Unless you're in a theatre of operations I guess.

I assume that it's a bad habit we've acquired from Uncle Sam. Good thing we don't have helmet liners anymore or I assume we'd be polishing those too, instead of our boots and the rocks :)

Agreed.  But if you compare the two above photos, you will notice (if you look closely) that, in the Brit parade, the colour party is in No. 1 dress (i.e. blues) so they make more than an effort to "respect the colours".  The Canadian colour party, on the other hand . . . I suppose we should be grateful that the boots are, at least, blackened.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2017, 13:05:29 »

It might be out officially now;  RCAF pers will be allowed to wear sqn patches, skill/qual badges, etc on their CADPAT now.

Looks like it must be official...https://www.facebook.com/ALCOMANR/posts/1456958294324788
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Offline Flavus101

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Re: CF moving to Multicam?
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2017, 13:35:43 »
Looks absolutely ridiculous.

This whole fascination with velcro (whoops, I mean hook and loop) is mind boggling. Buttons are much more quiet and they rarely open up when you brush against something, velcro on the other hand...