Author Topic: Air Defence appreciation  (Read 28920 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Petard

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 30,365
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,239
  • Once a gunner, always a gunner
Air Defence appreciation
« on: April 28, 2017, 23:18:35 »
Interesting article, and food for thought considering Canada divested it's ground based air defence capability a few years ago, but the need for all arms air defence sure didn't go away
http://groundedcuriosity.com/a-shared-responsibility-growing-our-understanding-of-air-defence/
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 23:23:18 by Petard »

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 135,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,177
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 23:25:52 »
Sadly we won't have the capacity to build 3 positions and our guys upon seeing drones will have to resort to rifle fire to bring it down, 1939 ADA for sure.

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 35,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,556
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2017, 01:14:57 »
There is a project to get us new shoulder fired AA weapons but its still in its infancy and mot expected to have anything delivered till the mid 20s

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 216,020
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,753
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2017, 07:18:56 »
Essentially we are accepting going into battle with an open flank, exposing our troops to observation and attack from above.

Offline GK .Dundas

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 17,945
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 444
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2017, 10:32:54 »
We are once again expecting someone else  to do the heavy lifting . what  will we do (aside from die in job lots? ) when they can not arrive in time to do something we should already be doing. Apparently aircraft are a product of someone  else's  vivid imagination Aircraft do not exist  or least that seems to be the official position.
"Norman. You know my policy on arming morons.If you arm one you have arm them all. Otherwise it 's just not sporting!"

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,407
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2017, 10:56:48 »
Who made the determination to eliminate our air defense and self-propelled artillery capability?

  :salute:
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 135,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,177
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2017, 11:33:09 »
Likely the same people who felt we didn't need tanks, ATGM, pioneers or heavy weapons in Infantry battalions.

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 441,830
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,265
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2017, 11:45:52 »
The same ones who, in the 1990s, decided to keep bands and eliminate fitness instructors in the CAF.

Priorities...
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 214,092
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,342
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2017, 12:57:44 »
Who made the determination to eliminate our air defense and self-propelled artillery capability?

This can be traced to the latter days of WWII, when the Allies had air supremacy and the Canadian Army re-roled many Air Defence troops into Infantry.

The Great Awakening in the mid-eighties saw us acquire ADATS, but the threat was once more assumed to have evaporated once the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact collapsed.

Now it's Tradition.

Offline Bird_Gunner45

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 52,291
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,111
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2017, 14:34:52 »
The same ones who, in the 1990s, decided to keep bands and eliminate fitness instructors in the CAF.

Priorities...

Incorrect. The demise of the Ground Based Air Defence is almost entirely a self inflicted wound by the artillery branch. The decision to divest the Javelin and 35mm was driven by the desire of the branch to re-roll reserve AD units and focus resources on the ADATS, as the intent (2005/2006) was to have the ADATS moved to the direct fire squadron. Once the DFS met its fate, the intent for the ADATs changed to use the system as a low level air defence radar and integrate it into the Local Air picture via Link 16 and the ADSI for use in Afghanistan.  However, the technology used for this (which was from the MMEV project) couldn't push the local radar feed to the ADSI due to issues with the ADATS radar.

At the same time, 4 AD started to focus on ASCC and UAS deployments (Sperwer and Scan Eagle) as a means of deploying soldiers. The addition of the UAS started the move towards the transition to the "GS" regiment as the resident UAS expertise became a product of 4 AD.

So, this left the GBAD with only 1 system which was basically undeployable, mechanically unreliable, costly to run, and logistically heavy and a regiment full of SME's in STA. The cancellation of the MMEV also left no clear way forward. There was, at one time (2006) and intent to take Phalynx off of the Frigates to give them to 4 AD as a C-RAM capability, which fell through, and to have the regiment kitted with avengers for the Olympics (2010) which fell through. Moreover, the artillery branch wanted to get into HIMARs, so there was a project at getting HIMARs to fire both SS and SA missiles, which clearly also fell through. Thus, the GBAD was left with no weapon systems once the ADATS was divested in 2012/2013 and no real plan for replacement.

From discussions with many pers in Ottawa it was clearly laid out that the army was concerned about GBAD but the artillery branch was more interested in divesting the capability IOT clear PYs and money for things it deemed more important, such as STA and HIMARs.

On a side note- the RCAS GBAD cell was discussing the inherent issue with defending against a MUAS and came to the AAAD conclusion. The inherent problem with C-MUAS is that you can detect the systems but they would be extremely difficult to target the system directly. The easy solution would be to jam the video feed, rendering the system useless, but requiring some sort of jamming capability. The second option was to engage the system via AAAD, which would be extremely difficult to say the least. The third option would be to engage the control station.

The proposed SOP was that once a launch was detected the main effort would be in identifying where the control system was (since they would need a LOS and would need to be relatively in the open and within 3-5 km of the unit being targetted) based on where the detections were spotted and engaging the control system via artillery or other effect. For those being targeted, the SOP would be to adopt a posture akin to the old "actions on air attack" where the units attempts to hide or disperse before the MUAS can target it and call in their own effects.


Offline Cdn Blackshirt

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 13,225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,407
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2017, 15:39:52 »
Regardless of what Artillery wanted to do, who was at the top while this happened?

I understand that at times the individual trades are going to try to stuff like this, but the guy at the top has to be responsible for maintaining a big picture view of what's going on.

Especially with how long it appears to take us to procure anything and re-develop a competency, to have allowed the army as a whole to have lost the entire GBAD capability while pursuing other areas of interest, is negligent.

A quick clarification....

I don't understand how air assets could be deemed the best solution for countering opposing UAS assets?  With many of opposing uas assets being COTS toys costing only hundreds of dollars, it seems like a less expensive and more immediate solution would be more appropriate - something like MANTIS in combination with just about any MANPAD-based system that we could buy off the shelf?


Thanks in advance, Matthew.  :salute:
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 135,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,177
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2017, 16:37:10 »
What they could have done is tasked 2-3 Reserve units as AD and given them some light guns, task one Reg force artillery unit to support a Troop of Manpads and a troop of the same guns as the Reserves, using whatever Manpads are used by our allies. Their job is to maintain some expertise in this field. Because we know things fall apart and procurement fails, plus we never have enough air assets to go around.   

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 229,835
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,134
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2017, 16:47:47 »
Coincidentally, they're making a movie about what happens to an Army that has no adequate anti-air defence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRtZUkAR2u4
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 178,850
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,055
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • WordPress Page
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2017, 16:48:00 »

I don't understand how air assets could be deemed the best solution for countering opposing UAS assets? 


Welcome to the better part of my artillery career in the 60s and 70s when we had zero air defence assets except our C2s and 30 cals and every exercise scenario started with the stupid phrase "we have air superiority".

As I was leaving in the early eighties we were just starting to rebuild our AD and locating capabilities but it's not hard to understand where a decade of darkness followed by a decade of fighting an insurgency which had no air resources has led to the situation we're in now.

I do agree with the question about who are the senior leaders responsible for this state of being? Leaving it up to the infantry and the artillery to sort out their own organizations within the limited permissible PYs seems to me an abrogation of responsibility within the senior army and CF leadership to develop sound doctrine and overall force structures.

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" book series at:
https://wolfriedel.wordpress.com

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 441,830
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,265
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2017, 16:51:01 »
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Bird_Gunner45

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 52,291
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,111
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2017, 16:52:10 »
Regardless of what Artillery wanted to do, who was at the top while this happened?

I understand that at times the individual trades are going to try to stuff like this, but the guy at the top has to be responsible for maintaining a big picture view of what's going on.

Especially with how long it appears to take us to procure anything and re-develop a competency, to have allowed the army as a whole to have lost the entire GBAD capability while pursuing other areas of interest, is negligent.

A quick clarification....

I don't understand how air assets could be deemed the best solution for countering opposing UAS assets?  With many of opposing uas assets being COTS toys costing only hundreds of dollars, it seems like a less expensive and more immediate solution would be more appropriate - something like MANTIS in combination with just about any MANPAD-based system that we could buy off the shelf?


Thanks in advance, Matthew.  :salute:

Ahhh yes, that's the part of the story that was left out. The artillery branch advisor pushed the plan based on his preference for HIMARS to the then Army Commander, LGen Leslie, who conveniently also hated the Air Defence (he said as much at a town hall in Gagetown) and advised as such. The decision to maintain a capability gap was then decided upon for 2 key reasons:

1. The push at the time was for a Counter Rocket, Mortar, and Artillery (C-RAM) system since it was believed that an air threat outside of C-RAM didn't exist; and
2. The GBAMD project was in swing with an anticipated completion date of 2021 at that time and it was believed that it was better to wait for a more modern solution than to rush something.

There were attempts from 2012 to today to procure an interim GBAD system, including staff checks in DLR for Stinger/RBS-90 missiles and the request from 2 VP for a MANPAD system last year. The first one was rejected as it was believed that the threat was only C-RAM and UAS in nature, which are not systems that can be readily or easily engaged by a MANPAD system. The second is still in the ringer.

Air assets ARE NOT optimal for counter UAS, particularly at the SUAS and MUAS levels. For something at the HALE/MALE level an aircraft could certainly do it, but the others are too small and slow for easy identification and generally work in the close fight.

Offline Infanteer

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 167,950
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,145
  • Honey Badger FTW!
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2017, 18:41:08 »
I guess this is where 1% of the GDP gets us.... :-\
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 35,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,556
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2017, 20:25:38 »
Funny how changing how assets are allocated for the airforce creates a capability gap. However not having AD for almost 10 years is not a capability gap.

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 213,295
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,559
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2017, 20:43:20 »

I don't understand how air assets could be deemed the best solution for countering opposing UAS assets?  With many of opposing uas assets being COTS toys costing only hundreds of dollars, it seems like a less expensive and more immediate solution would be more appropriate - something like MANTIS in combination with just about any MANPAD-based system that we could buy off the shelf?



The systems are out there, we just are hoping someone else buys and deploys them.  This is the way we do business, its called piggy-backing.  Hell, we don't even do SFA for Christmas for the troops deployed on IMPACT, just let the USAF and DFAC do all the real lifting.  It seems to be our SOP, and our second SOP is to make excuses about why we do the first SOP.

Other people, of course, are spending money to counter the UAV/UAS/RPA threat...http://www.janes.com/article/67118/auds-achieves-trl-9-deploys-with-us-forces

The new cam and concealment on the battle field could be the IR spectrum, etc in the near future.  If you are out there, and not under cover, and someone is above you with IR or EO...good luck hiding.  Paint yourself green, scrim up...not going to matter much if someone has an IR lens on you from above.
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Loachman

  • Former Army Pilot in Drag
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 214,092
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,342
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2017, 00:07:43 »
Funny how changing how assets are allocated for the airforce creates a capability gap.

That had nothing to do with a capability gap. Somebody needed an excuse to buy anything-but-an-F35 in order to fulfill a campaign promise, no matter how ridiculous that campaign promise was.

Offline Bird_Gunner45

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 52,291
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,111
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2017, 09:49:57 »
The systems are out there, we just are hoping someone else buys and deploys them.  This is the way we do business, its called piggy-backing.  Hell, we don't even do SFA for Christmas for the troops deployed on IMPACT, just let the USAF and DFAC do all the real lifting.  It seems to be our SOP, and our second SOP is to make excuses about why we do the first SOP.

Other people, of course, are spending money to counter the UAV/UAS/RPA threat...http://www.janes.com/article/67118/auds-achieves-trl-9-deploys-with-us-forces

The new cam and concealment on the battle field could be the IR spectrum, etc in the near future.  If you are out there, and not under cover, and someone is above you with IR or EO...good luck hiding.  Paint yourself green, scrim up...not going to matter much if someone has an IR lens on you from above.

It's sad but true in this case.... when they divested the ADATS the Army commander simply said that "the US would provide any AD we needed". When he was asked why, by the same logic, we needed field artillery, armour, aircraft, or HIMARs he was less than impressed.

Offline Rifleman62

    Retired.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 94,330
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,081
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2017, 11:04:00 »
As stated in another thread, Moochers.

Quote
Thou shalt not take moochers into thy hut?
Homer

Sooner or later Pres Trump is going to lay down the law.

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,82898.1650.html

Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster (President's National Security Advisor) on foreign policy. 30 Apr 17 Extract from Fox News Sunday With Chris Wallace transcript.
Never Congratulate Yourself In Victory, Nor Blame Your Horses In Defeat - Old Cossack Expression

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 135,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,177
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2017, 13:43:31 »
According to Wiki
20mm guns would give us coverage to 1600m-2600m
35mm Skysweeper was 13,600m
Mistral SAM was a 6km range

The 20mm would be good for the reserves, smallish footprints and good for a lot of the smaller UAV/drones

The 35mm bigger footprint but better for the larger UAV's and the Mistral (or similar) would give us enough presence to deter ground attack aircraft.

Offline Journeyman

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 536,315
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,878
  • Your example, not your opinion, can cause change
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2017, 14:07:42 »
When he was asked why, by the same logic, we needed field artillery, armour, aircraft, or HIMARs he was less than impressed.
He wasn't used to being questioned by his closest advisor -- his mirror.


But thank you for these posts; it's always awesome seeing informed input.   :nod:
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline NavyShooter

    Boaty McBoatface!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 182,421
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,974
  • Death from a Bar.....one shot, one Tequilla
Re: Air Defence appreciation
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2017, 14:25:26 »
The 20mm would be a good start, we probably still have a pile of Oerlikon's in the system from WWII that we can put back in service, maybe not even needing to hit museums this time?

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer: