Author Topic: May 2017 Manchester UK bombing (split fm Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition)  (Read 7043 times)

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ariana-grande-concert-northern-england-1.4126934

'Number of confirmed fatalities' at Ariana Grande concert in U.K., say police
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Offline tomahawk6

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22 dead and 59 wounded is the toll so far.One person has been arrested,expect to see more as the support cell is rounded up.

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And we have a split from the non-Muslim thread with this "#ISIS releases English-language version of claim for #Manchester bombing" - graphic from monitoring group Tweet attached.
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

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Apparently the worst terrorist attack since 2005, RIP to those taken to soon and my heart to the ones that remain.

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Apparently this piece of crap was known by authorities.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4531940/Emergency-services-rush-Manchester-Arena.html  This really makes my blood boil, these bastards that are known and even on watch lists still walking the streets.  When will we wake the frig up?
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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I know you are venting, jjt, but you know we will "wake the frig up" only the day you and I accept being stopped, searched, held without charge, etc. at the police's sole discretion. I for one will never accept that.

The difference between them and us is we have Rule of law, they have Rule of God. I much prefer the first one.

Meanwhile, we must all hope that those injured get well sooner rather than later, and pass our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims.

Offline GK .Dundas

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I know you are venting, jjt, but you know we will "wake the frig up" only the day you and I accept being stopped, searched, held without charge, etc. at the police's sole discretion. I for one will never accept that.

The difference between them and us is we have Rule of law, they have Rule of God. I much prefer the first one.

Meanwhile, we must all hope that those injured get well sooner rather than later, and pass our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims.

Well said ,sir !

Edit by PC to fix formatting error in quote tag.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 18:58:16 by PuckChaser »
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I know you are venting, jjt, but you know we will "wake the frig up" only the day you and I accept being stopped, searched, held without charge, etc. at the police's sole discretion. I for one will never accept that.

The difference between them and us is we have Rule of law, they have Rule of God. I much prefer the first one.

Meanwhile, we must all hope that those injured get well sooner rather than later, and pass our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims.
:goodpost:
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

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Online jollyjacktar

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I know you are venting, jjt, but you know we will "wake the frig up" only the day you and I accept being stopped, searched, held without charge, etc. at the police's sole discretion. I for one will never accept that.

The difference between them and us is we have Rule of law, they have Rule of God. I much prefer the first one.

Meanwhile, we must all hope that those injured get well sooner rather than later, and pass our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims.

As far as I am concerned, those who would be a danger to the rest of us such as this ******* obviously was, should not be running around and able to blow 8 year olds to bits, sorry.  Yes, we have the rule of law to protect society and as far as I am concerned, it the law needs to be changed to do so, the so be it.  Those that protect us in some cases need to have the fetters that bind them and make it impossible loosened.  I would say there are at least 100 families in the UK who would agree with me today.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Lessons on how to fight terror

A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success.

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline tomahawk6

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Lessons on how to fight terror

A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success.

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/

You have an active fifth column in much of Europe. How do you solve the problem ? They use our laws and pc society as a shield from which to launch attacks at will. The security services end up reacting rather than being proactive.

Offline FJAG

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You have an active fifth column in much of Europe. How do you solve the problem ? They use our laws and pc society as a shield from which to launch attacks at will. The security services end up reacting rather than being proactive.

I've always had a simplistic way of looking at this rooted in the law of armed conflict. When you go to war with a state then whatever member of the armed element of that state that comes into your control is detained for the duration of the conflict even where they have never fired a shot or committed any act of war themselves. Merely being a member is enough to justify detention as a POW. Those who have actually committed war crimes themselves can be tried and punished for those crimes.

My view is that ordinary criminal law works sufficiently for ordinary criminals but once you start dealing with international mobs of criminals and their wanabes you have to apply something similar to the law of armed conflict. Those individuals who are members of, supportive of, finance or otherwise facilitate acts of terrorism by such groups as ISIS should be detained until the end of hostilities whether or not they have actually committed an act of terrorism themselves.

The "law against terrorism" obviously needs to be different from the LOAC in that one does not wish to give a veneer of legitimacy to terrorists which the LOAC and POW status as we know it now does but I think it's time that we admitted when there are organizations that number in the tens of thousand and who have significant financial and weapons resources, then the ordinary criminal law and its convoluted processes (even when modified to include terrorist acts) is insufficient.

:cheers:



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Meanwhile:

Gerry Adams sends his condolences.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/808317/Manchester-bombing-terror-explosion-Gerry-Adams-IRA-arena-attack-Ariana-Grande

I'm sure that Mancunians appreciate his concern.

That's one you got wrong there D&B.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

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I've always had a simplistic way of looking at this rooted in the law of armed conflict. When you go to war with a state then whatever member of the armed element of that state that comes into your control is detained for the duration of the conflict even where they have never fired a shot or committed any act of war themselves. Merely being a member is enough to justify detention as a POW. Those who have actually committed war crimes themselves can be tried and punished for those crimes.

My view is that ordinary criminal law works sufficiently for ordinary criminals but once you start dealing with international mobs of criminals and their wanabes you have to apply something similar to the law of armed conflict. Those individuals who are members of, supportive of, finance or otherwise facilitate acts of terrorism by such groups as ISIS should be detained until the end of hostilities whether or not they have actually committed an act of terrorism themselves.

The "law against terrorism" obviously needs to be different from the LOAC in that one does not wish to give a veneer of legitimacy to terrorists which the LOAC and POW status as we know it now does but I think it's time that we admitted when there are organizations that number in the tens of thousand and who have significant financial and weapons resources, then the ordinary criminal law and its convoluted processes (even when modified to include terrorist acts) is insufficient.

:cheers:

 :goodpost:

This.  This is what I mean by wake the frig up OGBD et al.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline Chris Pook

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Some thoughts on what to do with "the opposition"

Shoot them out of hand at the scene.  (Law of Armed Conflict)
Gratuitously slaughter them by hanging them in droves or pinning them to their doors as their houses burn around them (Worked with the Grahams and Armstrongs)
Incarcerate them in prison hulks and dungeons and let disease and starvation solve the problem (Highlanders)
Ship them overseas and tell them never to come back again (the Irish to Botany Bay)
Press them into the army and navy and use them to fight other people's wars.
Offer them land in someone else's country.

Or, incarcerate them for the duration (the Huguenot Wars lasted from 1520 to 1998 - Stockholm Bloodbath to Good Friday Agreement) at taxpayers expense, providing 3 hots and a cot, tv, recreation and educational facilities.

Or, treat it like background noise and be prepared to manage the chaos independently.



"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

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Lessons on how to fight terror

A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success.

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/

Actually the UK done fairly well out of it's Counter insurgency/terrorism programs, basically won in NI and definitely won in Malaysia

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Let the Gurkha pay some of these known folks nocturnal visits ala Malaysia/North Africa/Falklands...  That sends a message they'd understand.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Actually the UK done fairly well out of it's Counter insurgency/terrorism programs, basically won in NI and definitely won in Malaysia

It's been a program of 'make it up as you go along', and has resulted in thousands of senseless deaths while preventing thousands of others. But it's the only one that has ever, kind of, worked.... whatever it's called.

But that doesn't make it any easier to see 8 year old girls brutally killed though, does it? And that's the hardest part of these newest battles: winning them without using revenge as the key motivator.

'Steel my soldier's hearts', indeed.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Jarnhamar

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Not in the non-muslim terrorist attacks thread anymore?
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Offline daftandbarmy

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"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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It's been a program of 'make it up as you go along', and has resulted in thousands of senseless deaths while preventing thousands of others. But it's the only one that has ever, kind of, worked.... whatever it's called.

But that doesn't make it any easier to see 8 year old girls brutally killed though, does it? And that's the hardest part of these newest battles: winning them without using revenge as the key motivator.

'Steel my soldier's hearts', indeed.

As far as Colonial Powers are concerned, the Brits play the long game better than anyone else and it's mostly because they've had a few hard losses (Ireland/South Africa/India).  The French learned similar lessons, albeit later.  It took Algeria to make them realize Shadow Diplomacy and Shady Middlemen work better than occupying armies. 

Fighting Terrorists/Insurgents/Freedom Fighters/Guerillas/Criminals (whatever you feel like calling them) isn't complicated in theory.  Kill the leadership, Isolate them from the population and take away their resources.  The problem is that rarely do all three of these get targeted at the same time or at all.

The war against Islamic extremist organizations will never be won because we categorically refuse to dismantle the considerable financial muscle backing these organizations.  A small example of this is Opium production in Afghanistan.  From 1996 to 2001 the Taliban actually banned opium cultivation nearly eradicating its production in early 2001 and were openly praised by the US Government for doing so.  See the following article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/20/world/taliban-s-ban-on-poppy-a-success-us-aides-say.html

What was unknown at the time was the Taliban had been secretly stockpiling refined opium, which has a very long shelf life (decades if stored properly) and had created an artificial glut in the market which caused the price of illegal opiates to skyrocket.  When war broke out following the September 11 attacks, the Taliban immediately legalized opium cultivation again and flooded the market with their surplus which was sold at a very high price giving the Talban a massive injection of cash.  Opium production in Afghanistan has doubled to what it was when the United States entered Afghanistan and it grows yearly.  They say a picture paints a thousand words and it's no secret that the war in Afghanistan really flared up in 2006, right as ISAF expanded across Afghanistan and Taliban kicked production in to overdrive with only brief dips since then.

Afghanistan Opium Production by Year:


Of course, destroying the opium crops would "hurt the farmers" and prevent us from winning the "hearts and minds" (whatever that means) but considering the US government has spent over a trillion dollars on the war in Afghanistan alone (In a country with a GDP of only $64 billion annually) perhaps our strategy was/is deeply flawed?  It's been the equivalent of pissing money down the toilet. 

What we should have done was used the tanks to burn every single poppy field to the ground, taken 3/4 of that money we spent on fruitless military adventurism and put it towards actual economic development and BUYING the hearts and minds.  We systematically failed to isolate the Taliban from their cash flow, cash they use everyday to buy weapons, bribe government officials, pay their fighters, etc.  We have massively misused our considerable financial and military might, the result is pretty conclusively a loss. 

The same could be said for our dealings with the Saudis.  Until we stop buying Saudi oil, attacks in our cities will continue unabated and Terror Organizations will continue to receive funding.  How many citizens lives is a barrel of Saudi crude worth?

Note:

A good book to read about The drug trade in Afghanistan is called "The Dark Art: My Undercover Life in Global Narco-Terrorism".  It's written by a retired DEA Special Agent named Edward Follis who served as the head of the DEA in Afghanistan. 

https://www.amazon.ca/Dark-Art-Undercover-Global-Narco-terrorism/dp/1592408931
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 22:29:49 by Humphrey Bogart »

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Quote
Morrissey attacks politicians and the Queen over Manchester terrorism response

The Manchester-born singer, Morrissey, has hit out at politicians for their reaction to the bombing in his hometown that has killed 22 people and injured 59 more.

In his statement, the former Smiths frontman claimed that politicians are safe from attacks, while the rest of the country is left vulnerable. The MP Jo Cox was murdered by a rightwing extremist in June last year.

Morrissey cited government immigration policy among his complaints saying the prime minister would never change her immigration policy in the light of the attacks. Police have said that the bomber, Salman Abedi, was British-born and from Manchester.

He also appeared to suggest that a desire to adhere to “political correctness” was behind politicians’ unwillingness to specify that the attack was the work of an Islamist extremist, rather than simply an extremist. The same claim is often made by people on the far-right.


“In modern Britain everyone seems petrified to officially say what we all say in private. Politicians tell us they are unafraid, but they are never the victims. How easy to be unafraid when one is protected from the line of fire. The people have no such protections,” the singer wrote on his Facebook page.

“Manchester mayor Andy Burnham says the attack is the work of an ‘extremist’. An extreme what? An extreme rabbit?”

Criticising the prime minister, he claimed that “her own life is lived in a bullet-proof bubble, and she evidently does not need to identify any young people today in Manchester morgues”.

The musician added: “Also, ‘will not break us’ means that the tragedy will not break her, or her policies on immigration. The young people of Manchester are already broken - thanks all the same, Theresa.”

Morrissey also criticised the London mayor, Sadiq Khan, who he said had failed to condemn the Islamic State group after it claimed responsibility for the attack. A link to the terrorist organisation has not been confirmed by the security services, who are still working to identify whether or not Abedi worked alone or as part of a cell.

In a statement released on Tuesday, Khan said: “London stands united with the great city of Manchester today after this barbaric and sickening attack. This was a cowardly act of terrorism that targeted a concert attended by thousands of children and young people.”

Also in line for criticism from Morrissey was the Queen, who he said had received “absurd praise for her ‘strong words’ against the attack, yet she does not cancel today’s garden party at Buckingham Palace - for which no criticism is allowed in the Britain of free press”.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/celebrity/morrissey-attacks-politicians-and-the-queen-over-manchester-terrorism-response/ar-BBBtsZu?li=AAggNb9&ocid=iehp
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline tomahawk6

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In all fairness to the Queen she lived through the Blitz and its horrors first hand. I think not giving in to terrorism by keeping to the scheduled events is important.

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Morrissey attacks politicians and the Queen over Manchester terrorism response
  ???    And...?
Someone with supposedly celebrity status yammering about a topic in which they know nothing;  the first three substantive paragraphs of the article were each his statement, followed by it being debunked by the writer.
As for the Queen cancelling a garden party... now that  would send terrorists some sort of message... I guess   :dunno:   I'll have to wait until the Dixie Chicks weigh in on this one......


As for some of the suggestions here....
I'm assuming that everyone is up to speed on Bill C-36 (Anti-Terrorism Act, 2001), Bill C-44 (Protection of Canada from Terrorists Act, 2014), and Bill C-51 (Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015).  All were passed in the shadow of a recent terrorist action; many of their provisions, when used in court, were overturned as being unconstitutional.  That's a problem when people try to rush through quick 'fixes' when angry/scared.  Personally, I see a very good reason that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms forms the first part of our Constitution Act.

For example, taking incarceration until the end of conflict, without trial, based on someone being known to hold extremist views....
Will implementing that:
a)  be a propaganda/radicalizing tool against the currently undecided, being further evidence of "how we are oppressors"?
b)  be remotely effective with a youth considering becoming a suicide bomber -- "gosh, I could end up in jail; I better turn my life around"?
c)  perhaps see an increase of people deemed suspiciously extremist?

....in effect, we would move closer to behaving like the very extremists whose behaviour we cannot comprehend.  This is Canada; I like to think we're better than that.  It's lunacy to even suggest such behaviour.


Nietzsche: He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.  And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.

Yoda: Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force.  But beware.  Anger, fear, aggression.  The dark side are they.  Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.