Author Topic: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread  (Read 10764 times)

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Offline Ditch

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #75 on: June 14, 2017, 22:17:23 »
Self-loading meat bag...
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CRIPT had/has a defensive cyber security mandate and leveraged reservists with the skillsets required. They got special training, but none of those folks got that training and ran to the civvies sector AFAIK.

Let's keep in mind here that Cyber Op is a trade with a name, and that's it. We barely have the semblance of an employment concept, how many PYs, and where they are going to work. The employment concept is critical to what pay level they will receive, so conjecture about paying them SOF-esque allowances is not really anything other than pissing into the wind at this point.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #77 on: June 14, 2017, 23:52:42 »
Ya wait till they show up to work and start using 10 year old computers operating windows 98.

Besides, doesn't Ottawa already have a cell of nerds? And I don't mean comms research.
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Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2017, 09:46:50 »
So I looked into how the American's are doing it, just to see how it's organized. Most of the US Army's Cyber capabilities (Defensive and Offensive Cyber Ops) are captured under the US Army Cyber Command, and specifically the 780th Military Intelligence Bde, which has 2x subordinate MI Bn's. As of 2015, they stood up the Cyber Operations Specialist (17C) MOSID.

The trade is an entry level-job:

https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories/computers-and-technology/cyber-operations-specialist.html

Currently qualifying for a 7K(USD) enlistment bonus, and as of 2015, qualifying for an Assignment Incentive Pay of 250/300/500$.

Job training for a cyber operations specialist requires completing 10 weeks of Basic Combat Training and two phases of Advanced Individual Training (AIT). Phase one is located in Corry Station, FL for 25 weeks and phase two is located in Fort Gordon, GA for 20 weeks.

Trade requirements:

Quote
PHYSICAL DEMAND RATING OF MEDIUM.

PHYSICAL PROFILE OF 222221.

NORMALCOLOR VISION.

QUALIFYING SCORES.
–A MINIMUM SCORE OF 110IN APTITUDE AREA FOR GT AND A MINIMUM SCORE OF 112IN APTITUDE AREA ST ON ASVAB TESTS ADMINISTERED ON AND AFTER 1 APRIL 2014.

THE SOLDIER MUST MEET TOP SECRET (TS) SENSITIVE COMPARTMENTED INFORMATION (SCI) ACCESS ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS TO BE AWARDED AND MAINTAIN MOS.

SOLDIER IS REQUIRED TO RECEIVE AND PASS A COUNTERINTELLIGENCE SCOPE POLYGRAPH (CSP) PRIOR TO BEING AWARDED THE MOS AND MUST CONTINUE TO PASS SUBSEQUENT CSPSTO HOLD THE MOS. SOLDIERS WHO REFUSE TO TAKE OR FAIL A CSP WILL BE RECLASSIFIED.

FORMAL TRAINING (SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF 17C CYBER OPERATIONS SPECIALIST COURSE, CONDUCTED UNDER THE AUSPICES OF THE US ARMY CYBER SCHOOL) IS MANDATORY. HOWEVER, CONSTRUCTIVE CREDIT WAIVER FOR FORMAL TRAINING MAY BE GRANTED BY COMMANDANT, US ARMY CYBER SCHOOL, FORT GORDON, GA 30905-5300

So basically, entry-level job, have to complete basic, medium fitness required, and deployable. Potential for some waivers, but must complete their Individual trg (which looking at the curriculum, is quite heavy). They are separated into national mission teams, combat mission teams (which are in direct support of combatant commands), and cyber protection teams. They get some extra money, but not a huge amount in the scheme of things.

As a personal side, considering the information available to a cyber op, and the potential threat, I would hope that our own Cyber Ops would be required to complete Conduct after Capture level C, which you can certainly argue has a requirement for some level of physical fitness.
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Offline Beadwindow 7

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2017, 09:50:04 »
I started replying here with a lot of details I'd found on the US Army's Cyber Op MOSID, but realized it was better suited in the Cyber Op mega Trade:

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,125966.msg1492367.html#msg1492367

Key take-away from that post that is relevant to this one is this:

The trade is an entry level trade, all trg provided, with some potential for waivers on previous experience/training. They get some incentive allowances, but not a huge amount (max 500$ as of 2015). 7K Enlistment bonus.

Physical demand rating of MEDIUM, and they are deployable.
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2017, 10:14:59 »
...... realized it was better suited in the Cyber Op mega Trade
Hopefully the posters will take it there, because that was like watching the president of the chess club having a *****-slap contest with the school's Pokémon champ.  :slapfight:

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #81 on: June 16, 2017, 11:13:16 »
This thread has taken some odd drifts... Are we all going to suddenly act like we don't know a bunch of cases of people who were really solid soldiers, got injured/ill to the point of some sort of long term disability that would preclude them from deploying in a combat arms capacity, but who nonetheless have a lot of subject matter knowledge that is worth preserving in the training, planning, or administrative worlds? Absolutely we do need to keep an operationally focused military. We need to be able to send task forces out the door to kick *** and take names, but a lot of people are behind that effort at home. We sometimes are ill-served by our haste to remove people from service who breach UoS when they still have a lot to potentially contribute. Perhaps there would be other ways to administer of employees, such as a civilian instructor/civilian administrator category of employee for the medically invalided, if people really insist on getting these folks out of uniform?

 :goodpost:

My personal opinion is that the biggest difficulty the CAF will have in developing highly technical and specialized Offensive/Defensive capabilities in the Cyber Domain will be the "prick measuring contest" that's an ingrained trait in classical military culture.

Small Wars Journal put out a great article a few years ago called "Leadership of Cyber Warriors: Enduring Principles and New Directions". 

Quote
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a545300.pdf

If the military wants to try and steal some of the brain power from these places:





Than the paradigm better be changed because the top IT talent cares far less about PR's on the bench press and completing the Petawawa Ironman than they do about intellectual ability and critical thinking.

I think the article I alluded above provides a very good example of the difference between cyber warriors vice kinetic warriors:

Quote
Differences Between Cyber and Kinetic Warriors

There are similarities between cyber warriors and kinetic warriors as well as stark
differences. The ideal cyber warrior will possess high technical aptitude, be a creative problem
solver, and possess a hacker mindset that enjoys manipulating complex systems and pushing
technology in ways unintended by its designers
. One downside of the hacking ethos is the siren

song of conducting unethical or illegal activities, particularly as one‟s skills advance. A key
leadership challenge may be to ensure fundamental values of integrity, loyalty and duty are
internalized by the cyber warrior and the unit. Where a kinetic warrior may own a Beretta 9mm
pistol, a cyber warrior may have their own malware analysis lab tucked away in their basement.
From our experience, cyber warriors are often independent and expect that their leaders are at
least as bright and technically skilled as they
. Many will have college degrees and professional
certifications and take part in alternative hobbies and lifestyles. Contrast this with the physical
prowess-centric kinetic warfare environment, where being the biggest caveman in the tribe is
often enough to earn the respect of the led. Hackers and cyber warriors have a RTFM (Read The
Manual) culture, which expects individuals to make every effort to answer their own question
before asking an expert. In the intellect-centric environment of cyber warriors, general
leadership and management skills alone, without intelligence and technical competence, will not
carry the day. Because of their independent streak and desire for intellectual peers (or betters)
for leaders, building teams of cyber warriors is a non-trivial leadership challenge for the
uninitiated [8].
Different incentive structures may be necessary, for example pinning an
achievement medal on a cyber warrior may not be valued as much as an opportunity for access to
a new piece of technology or an advanced malware analysis course.

The best leaders will adapt to the characteristics and needs of their people. The cyber
warrior is a different animal than the kinetic warrior. In the next section we've outlined
leadership principles, both old and new, for taking these differences into account.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #82 on: June 16, 2017, 11:43:16 »
:goodpost:

My personal opinion is that the biggest difficulty the CAF will have in developing highly technical and specialized Offensive/Defensive capabilities in the Cyber Domain will be the "prick measuring contest" that's an ingrained trait in classical military culture.

Small Wars Journal put out a great article a few years ago called "Leadership of Cyber Warriors: Enduring Principles and New Directions". 

If the military wants to try and steal some of the brain power from these places:





Than the paradigm better be changed because the top IT talent cares far less about PR's on the bench press and completing the Petawawa Ironman than they do about intellectual ability and critical thinking.

I think the article I alluded above provides a very good example of the difference between cyber warriors vice kinetic warriors:


Well, that's all fine, but....

...Imagine investing a lot of money training someone with very specific expensive courses and then a company will come along and offer 20-40k more. That trade will need to have some something at least to offset that. The only thing I guess they can offer now is no deployments, postings and an early pension. The pay will definitely not be competitive.

What about never leaving the office and the early pension? ???

G2G

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #83 on: June 16, 2017, 11:47:46 »

Well, that's all fine, but....

What about never leaving the office and the early pension? ???

G2G

Great point G2G,

I've got a sneaking suspicion that unless we offer as a minimum, Senior Officer pay to some of these folks, we aren't going to get what we want or need.

Quote
Top Cyber Security Salaries In U.S. Metros Hit $380,000
   
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevemorgan/2016/01/09/top-cyber-security-salaries-in-u-s-metros-hit-380000/#46376bbe7ef8
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 11:51:41 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #84 on: June 16, 2017, 11:57:18 »
:nod:

I get a feeling the type of cyber-operator we'd want is more someone who would rather hang out "after-hours" (if such a beast exists for these folks) in the "Cyber Fight Club" than try to compare with all the other MOSIDs in the CAF.

:2c:

Cheers
G2G

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #85 on: June 16, 2017, 12:07:33 »
Why can't CAF use CSIS resources or take secondments from CSIS and have highly trained personnel with no recruiting or training costs?  Why is CAF once again reinventing the wheel?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 12:12:10 by Simian Turner »
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #86 on: June 16, 2017, 12:09:17 »
Why can't CAF use CSIS resources or take secondments from CSIS and have highly trained personnel with no recruiting or training costs?

I think you mean CSEC but we should probably use CSIS as well  ;D


Offline Simian Turner

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2017, 12:12:28 »
I meant CSIS:  https://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/ththrtnvrnmnt/nfrmtn/index-en.php

"Because the threat from cyber-espionage, cyber-sabotage and other cyber-operations are part of a broader economic threat to key sectors of Canadian society, CSIS works closely with other government departments and international partners in order to remain abreast of the global threat. As outlined in the Government of Canada’s Cyber Security Strategy, the Service analyzes and investigates domestic and international threats to the security of Canada, responding to the evolution in cyber-security technologies and practices."
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2017, 12:45:51 »
"remains abreast" does not equal "does the work." 

One could assume, safely one should believe, that CSEC is one of those "OGDs" that CSIS "works closely with" to "stay abreast."

:2c:

Regards,
G2G

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment
« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2017, 12:58:23 »
. . . secondments from CSIS [or CSEC] and have highly trained personnel with no recruiting or training costs? . . .

There are always recruiting and training costs, the only difference is whose budget it is charged against.  Just like the CAF, CSIS/CSEC's establishments are developed by "one job, one man".  They don't have spare pricks laying about, available to be used at will by other government agencies (oh, maybe their establishments are different than the CAF).  Just a WGA, (though I did do a couple of courses at CSE back when the earth was cooling - why would an HCA get loaded on something like that?) but the typical experienced CSIS/CSEC* employee who is maybe working in this field would more likely (based on duties, educational background, and salary) expect to be treated as equivalent to a junior officer rather than the entry level junior NCM "smart fat kid on a computer in his parent's basement" that has come to mind in this discussion.

*https://www.csiscareers.ca/en/jobs/security-assessment-analyst-0
https://www.cse-cst.gc.ca/en/node/1462

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Offline Journeyman

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #90 on: June 16, 2017, 13:00:33 »
Since this cyber chat isn't going over to the Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread, I'll continue the derail.

Ok, we're talking about the CAF. No one really knows where we're going with this (except apparently one poster who is amazingly prescient, or hooked up to the Matrix).  One thing we do  know, is how the Force's tribal elders deal with retention issues, whether SOF or this Sheldon Cooper Command.....


...uniforms & badges.

I predict that we'll see Cyber Commando uniforms combining the 'best' elements of Starship Troopers and Transformers and whatever else the little geek darlings are into these days.... such that they'll be the envy of COMICONs everywhere.

     :nod:

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #91 on: June 16, 2017, 13:06:36 »
Since this cyber chat isn't going over to the Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread, I'll continue the derail.

Don't worry, some of the staff will be around to tidy this thread up and exercise a bit of topic discipline, Journeyman.  :-\

Cheers
G2G

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #92 on: June 16, 2017, 14:48:52 »
Don't worry, some of the staff will be around to tidy this thread up and exercise a bit of topic discipline, Journeyman.  :-\
Well, we saw that the boss tried  to add chlorine to the DS pool.... but he's only got so much to work with.     >:D

Hey, it's Friday.    :cheers:

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #93 on: June 16, 2017, 15:05:37 »
Well, we saw that the boss tried  to add chlorine to the DS pool.... but he's only got so much to work with.     >:D

Hey, it's Friday.    :cheers:

Lol tell me how you real feel JM. 

Edit:

Entire topic merged, you're welcome  [Xp
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 16:19:50 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline garb811

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Re: "Canadian military to relax deployment-readiness rule" ...
« Reply #94 on: June 16, 2017, 21:21:07 »

...uniforms & badges.

Apparently user trials are already ongoing...


Offline Neso

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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2017, 20:46:19 »
Looks like the SOF analogies weren't too far off the mark

www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4164696

Quote
There is a reference to creating a special forces reserve unit, which Rohozinski said would develop offensive cyber capabilities, particularly in the area of information operations.

"That was a bit of a surprise, but uniquely Canadian," he said.

It's important from the point of view of attracting top cyber talent.

There will be a focus on recruiting cyber reservists, who work in the private sector by day, where they earn top dollar, but then also get to put their skills to use with the cachet of being a part-time special forces operator.

"Special operations command has a unique incentive structure and unique selection criteria. And because they are mission-oriented — the pointy end of the spear — their ability to motivate people beyond monetary remuneration is pretty significant," said Rohozinski. "Taking that approach to cyber warriors is pretty unique and a pretty clever thing to do."




CANSOFCOM investments

http://dgpaapp.forces.gc.ca/en/canada-defence-policy/news/investments-special-operations-forces-joint-capabilities.asp

Quote
Improve cryptographic, information operations, and cyber capabilities to include:
Cyber security and situational awareness projects;
Cyber threat identification and response;
Development of military-specific information operations; and
Development of military-specific offensive cyber operations capabilities able to target, exploit, influence, and attack in support of military operations.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 21:07:33 by Neso »

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #96 on: June 19, 2017, 00:32:12 »
"Special operations command has a unique incentive structure and unique selection criteria. And because they are mission-oriented — the pointy end of the spear."

However, these cyber-SOF will not be the pointy-end of the spear or have to pass the unique selection criteria that the rest of the operators do - so how will they be eligible for the unique incentives?  How will they be welcomed by their peers? 
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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #97 on: June 19, 2017, 01:24:41 »
"Special operations command has a unique incentive structure and unique selection criteria. And because they are mission-oriented — the pointy end of the spear."

However, these cyber-SOF will not be the pointy-end of the spear or have to pass the unique selection criteria that the rest of the operators do - so how will they be eligible for the unique incentives?  How will they be welcomed by their peers?

They'll likely be welcomed after they pass their green course at the training centre and then whatever training and indoctrination CANSOFCOM deems appropriate thereafter, then they will no doubt get out and support the assaulters and operators as a team, in the AO if need be, I'm willing to bet.  Assaulters and operators aren't Neanderthals when it comes to giving dues to those who contribute to the team's overall success -- they appreciate their supporters, physical and soon to be formalized cyber supporters.  It is not unreasonable to imagine that there are some incentives out there that are not dependant on assaulter or operator selection.

:2c:

Regards
G2G   

Offline MCG

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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #98 on: June 19, 2017, 01:37:16 »
However, these cyber-SOF will not be the pointy-end of the spear or have to pass the unique selection criteria that the rest of the operators do ...
Funny thing about the unique selection criteria: it is unique to the role and unit that one is going into.  Selection for CSOR is not selection for CJIRU, which is not selection for JTF 2 assaulter or coxswain.  So, the precedent is already set for elements not passing the same selection criteria.   

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
« Reply #99 on: June 19, 2017, 15:58:34 »
Funny thing about the unique selection criteria: it is unique to the role and unit that one is going into.  Selection for CSOR is not selection for CJIRU, which is not selection for JTF 2 assaulter or coxswain.  So, the precedent is already set for elements not passing the same selection criteria.

Nor the precedence of Reservists filling specialist roles......CIMIC and Humint.
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