Author Topic: Can EC's go to PRB?  (Read 3922 times)

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Offline Memorize

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Can EC's go to PRB?
« on: October 22, 2017, 13:28:15 »
Hello,

Longtime reader however first time posting here.

I wanna start by saying that I am back in the training system as a remuster. I am being told that if we fail 3 EC's in one PO it will consist of a PRB OR 2 EC's and one PC will consist of a PRB. Right now my training is expected from the start, to finish DP1 is about 14 months. Now if I fail an EC (quiz) 3 times within 3 weeks I may be sent back months, any longer from my family and my wife will have my head on a pike. I have tried to look everywhere I can to find some documentation on the matter but to no avail. I was under the impression that EC's, enabling checks are for a method to see how a said member is doing. I have seen a lot of people as a student and instructor pass a course or PO and did well but did not pass the EC's. Some people take longer for them to "click" on the subject.

So my questions are;

1. Who dictates what constitutes a PRB? The school or standards?
2. Can EC's fail you off a course?
3. Where can I find course TP's?
4. How do the initial and formal warning systems work?

Maybe I am getting this all wrong. I don't know. Just looking for clarification.

Thanks all!

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2017, 13:43:01 »
Likely what you're missing here is that the ECs have to be under the same PO. A Performance Objective (PO) is subdivided by multiple Enabling Objectives (EO) and each EO has an EC and each PO has a PC. PCs are a big deal, like failing an exam in school. Your ECs show how well you are grasping the content, so if you fail multiple ECs in the same PO, its an indicator that you likely would not be successful on the PC. Failing an EC in month 1, another in month 4 and another in month 10 (provided they aren't the same PO) shouldn't be a big deal, unless your school is very draconian in how it deals with EC failures.

Standards is who decides what constitutes PRBs, and they don't do that in a vacuum. The Army training is all run by CTC and courses all generally follow the same format.

I've personally never seen someone fail from ECs, but usually they've failed multiple ECs over a few POs and failed a PC twice which launched the PRB. You'll find the standards briefs are to scare you into paying attention, but the goal of your course staff is to make sure you learn the material. If you don't understand something and feel uneasy about an EC/PC, you need to make your staff aware and get help from them or another student who has the material down pat.

Standards in their inbrief should have covered exactly how your school applies Initial and Formal warnings, and what would get you where on the ladder. Typically I've seen Initials are EC failures, Formals are PC failures and EC retest failures, and PRBs are for PC restest failures and serious academic misconduct (cheating).

Course TPs are available on the CTC Gagetown DWAN site if you're in the Army. It has every career course and every OSQ that you could do. Also has the qualification standards which is the document that the TP is derived from.

Offline Memorize

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2017, 18:03:55 »
Puck,

First off thanks for the answers and quick reply. Maybe I wasn't clear enough but when I say fail 3 EC's it is all in the same PO or subject that brings someone straight to PRB. It would be great to get the extra help when needed however it is civilian staff teaching and any request for extra help gets denied by the military staff because of "paying for overtime" or "PT is a priority". It is difficult. I am just trying to grasp my head around this. It has changed several times already in a few months how this school deals with ECs, PCs and how to get to PRB's.

Thanks for the help of understanding. I just didn't believe it when they said (after a change) that 2 EC fails and 1 PC fail in the same PO is a PRB. When there is up to about 4 EC's per PO.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2017, 18:16:55 »
If you're being denied extra help for a subject you're having trouble with, that's something you need to document each and every time you were denied in case you have to go to a PRB. If need be, write memos requesting the assistance if verbal denials are too frequent. Make sure you're an active participant in class as well. These things will assist you should you go to PRB, keeping in mind not every PRB decision is recourse. Very likely you could see yourself returned to training with that extra assistance you've asked for, and especially if you were to keep getting denied it.

I'm not sure how much exposure you have to the military testing system, but the questions are usually very straightforward, with lots of multiple choice (at least in the NCM world). I've only had 1 course where I was expected to produce a lot of written answers, and we did an exhaustive review ahead of time.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 00:01:12 »
Depending on your trade there may be orders that provide guidance.  For RCAF managed trades there is a 1 Can Air Div order that provides higher level policy for the AF TEs (5-035) that is then amplified further in each QS and TP.   
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Offline Memorize

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 11:33:19 »
These things will assist you should you go to PRB, keeping in mind not every PRB decision is recourse.


We've been told that the 2 EC failures and the 1 PC failure leads us to a PRB with no retest, no if and's or buts automatically...

Just so everyone understands;

3 EC's failures is a PRB, or
2 EC's failures and 1 PC failure is a PRB with no retest...

I am just venting at this point, and still confused this is not how I thought the system worked. I was under the impression that EC's are initial's with counseling and PC's are formals with a rewrite before a PRB with a chance for a third rewrite, depending on the outcome of the PRB. Not straight to PRB. The mod I am on now has 5 EC's and 2 PC's within 12 training days for the PO. For some people understanding the material comes later, for it to "click". I just think the system is broken here.

Thank you all for your answers helping me try to understand this.

Oh, I am also having trouble finding course TP's from the CTC DWAN site...

Depending on your trade there may be orders that provide guidance.  For RCAF managed trades there is a 1 Can Air Div order that provides higher level policy for the AF TEs (5-035) that is then amplified further in each QS and TP.

Where is this order?


« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 11:45:45 by Memorize »

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 11:45:57 »
It used to be policy that a printed copy of the current TP was to be available in the back of the classroom.

Offline Memorize

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2017, 11:48:27 »
It used to be a policy that a printed copy of the current TP was to be available in the back of the classroom.

Maybe once, however, if I were to ask for a TP it would raise questions as to why we want one and what we plan to do with it. Overall a negative outcome.

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2017, 14:46:50 »
Can I query what course you are taking?

There is an online database of QSP's that can be queried.  (QSP = Qualification Standard Plan)

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 15:28:43 »
If you don't mind PMing me the course you're on, I can look on the CTC Gagetown page and find the TP for you.

Offline Memorize

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 15:54:30 »
If you don't mind PMing me the course you're on, I can look on the CTC Gagetown page and find the TP for you.

Hey Puck, your inbox is full  :pointdexter:

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 15:56:22 »
Hey Puck, your inbox is full  :pointdexter:

Fixed. For everyone else's reference, the max inbox storage is apparently 105 messages....  :moose:

Offline RecceO

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 18:09:38 »
I was under the impression that EC's are initial's with counseling and PC's are formals with a rewrite before a PRB with a chance for a third rewrite, depending on the outcome of the PRB. Not straight to PRB.

It depends. There are two documents that will govern how assessment is handled. The first is the QSTP. Chapter 3 - Assessment details the impact of failing each individual EC and PC. Further, it classifies some ECs as critical ECs, which if failed will usually result in some type of warning. The other place to check is in the School standing orders or conduct of courses. These documents will have amplifying details.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 21:32:24 »
Maybe once, however, if I were to ask for a TP it would raise questions as to why we want one and what we plan to do with it. Overall a negative outcome.

Students cannot be denied access to the TP.

What kind of third world training establishment are you attending?

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2017, 00:43:01 »
It seems like this is at the CTC. None of this surprises me. I have personally seen people recoursed for a single PC fail or worse the ol' "failure to maintain standard" as they ramp up the difficulty beyond the TP. I heard some disturbing stuff out of CFSME last year such as attempting to charge someone who was uninvolved with an incident because "they needed to charge some one".


Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 20:12:54 »
We've been told that the 2 EC failures and the 1 PC failure leads us to a PRB with no retest, no if and's or buts automatically...

Just so everyone understands;

3 EC's failures is a PRB, or
2 EC's failures and 1 PC failure is a PRB with no retest...

This part is what is concerning to me;  isn't the whole purpose of a PRB to determine the who's, why's etc of why the trainee is struggling? The PRB therefore can't even recommend "remedial trg with final attempt at the PC" or something to that effect.  I am doubtful this would stand up to an unbiased review;  'situating the estimate' and all that.

Quote
Oh, I am also having trouble finding course TP's from the CTC DWAN site...

Where is this order?

CTC...the Center of Excellence!!  I've spent some time around the battle mall and yup, there is always a chance to experience some Confirmation Of Combat Knowledge.

My experience at Air Force Training Establishments is that the Course Qualification Standard (QS) and TP (Training Plan) are provided to the students; when I last attended a formal TE course, those documents were available in hard copy in binders in the back of the class.  For us in the RCAF, there are orders specifically concerning conduct of training, etc, which form part of the 1 Cdn Air Div Orders, which are also applicable to 2 Cdn Air Div training establishments (I've attended training at TEs both in 1 and 2 Cdn Air Div...always had access to my QS and TP).

This doesn't seem to be the case at the CTC TE you're at.  Unfortunate;  however, maybe someone can post what the current C Army/DAT/etc policy is for provision of QS and TPs to candidates on a course.

I am away from the DWAN...I am curious what the CFITES states WRT to this too.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 20:18:13 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline RecceO

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2017, 21:22:48 »
This doesn't seem to be the case at the CTC TE you're at.  Unfortunate;  however, maybe someone can post what the current C Army/DAT/etc policy is for provision of QS and TPs to candidates on a course.

I do not know of any stated policy on the provision of QS/TPs, but in my experience, they are made available to students on request. Assessment checklists are typically the only parts that are actively pushed to students.

All QS/TPs can be found on the AITIS ACIMS web page which is accessible from the CTC DWAN page. Further, Canadian Army Order 24-08 (Annex E) is the order that applies to the administration of the warning system and performance monitoring for Army courses.


Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2017, 21:56:26 »
I do not know of any stated policy on the provision of QS/TPs, but in my experience, they are made available to students on request. Assessment checklists are typically the only parts that are actively pushed to students.

I am a fan of the "available for the candidates, freely"...both so they can use them to succeed, and so that a valid trg failure can't try the "I didn't know what was expected of me" line in the PRB process.

Quote
All QS/TPs can be found on the AITIS ACIMS web page which is accessible from the CTC DWAN page. Further, Canadian Army Order 24-08 (Annex E) is the order that applies to the administration of the warning system and performance monitoring for Army courses.

Then it sounds like they are avail (perhaps not easily found by Candidate Joe Schmoe sometimes but...) and 24-08 contains the same training direction that 1 Cdn Div Order, Vol 5, 5-035 CONDUCT OF AIR FORCE INDIVIDUAL TRAINING AND EDUCATION (AF IT&E) provides. 
I feel the need...the NEED to FEED! - Prop Gun

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Can EC's go to PRB?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 23:01:58 »
I do not know of any stated policy on the provision of QS/TPs, but in my experience, they are made available to students on request. Assessment checklists are typically the only parts that are actively pushed to students.

All QS/TPs can be found on the AITIS ACIMS web page which is accessible from the CTC DWAN page. Further, Canadian Army Order 24-08 (Annex E) is the order that applies to the administration of the warning system and performance monitoring for Army courses.

Back when the earth was cooling, I was a student and later, an instructor (and finally a Standards O) at the CTC.

During every single Standards in brief, the Standards O/WO would point to the hard copy of the TP in the back of the classroom. During periodic standards visits to the classroom the Standards rep, in addition to conducting a write up on the classroom instructor, would check to ensure the TP was complete and update. Woe betide the Course O that was found to have lacking instructors or TP that was not current.