Author Topic: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks  (Read 13356 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CanadianTire

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 9,344
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 795
CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« on: November 01, 2017, 19:06:08 »
I just noticed that Logistik Unicorp has a little note under the listing for the long sleeve shirt that future production runs will include an extra button hole for cufflinks. Did I miss something? Are cufflinks authorized for wear in DEUs?
"Theirs not to reason why/Theirs but to do and die." - Tennyson

Online ModlrMike

    : Riding time again... woohooo!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 215,619
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,822
    • Canadian Association of Physician Assistants
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2017, 19:08:13 »
I see the same note attached to the long sleeve white shirts. Mmmmmm... very curious. Watch and shoot I suppose.
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
Zero tolerance is the politics of the lazy. All it requires is that you do nothing and ban everything.

Offline CanadianTire

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 9,344
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 795
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2017, 19:12:00 »
Good to know. One of my co-workers is an air cadet instructor, so I'll see if it's the same case for the blue shirts (I would assume it is at this point).
"Theirs not to reason why/Theirs but to do and die." - Tennyson

Offline Ostrozac

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 32,000
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 715
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2017, 19:50:44 »
I have a friend who likes cuff links, and has been slightly rebellious and has been wearing cuff links with DEU for a while now. He bought a few Royal Navy shirts, but I suppose he could have modifed RCN white shirts through a civilian tailor.

As to the rules? Most people rarely wear DEU anyway, and when they do wear DEU with the long sleeves they tend to be under a tunic or a sweater anyway. People will likely be able to wear their own cufflinks, so long as they aren't massively professionally gaudy -- basically the same rules as wrist watches.
 

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 242,110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,621
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2017, 20:18:01 »
Excellent. We need more dandyish and affectations in the CAF.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline FSTO

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 49,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,781
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2017, 20:22:50 »
Finally!  :king:

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 456,840
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,609
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2017, 21:06:09 »
Excellent. We need more dandyish and affectations in the CAF.

Bring back the Sam Browne belt, puttees, aluminium mess tins, Ross Rifle, old style raingear that lets water in and keeps it in, the Iltis...

This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 177,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,229
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2017, 21:18:12 »
People will likely be able to wear their own cufflinks, so long as they aren't massively professionally gaudy

Easier to hide though.  I eagerly await the first person to wear Francis Underwood ones  >:D
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Mike63

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 4,200
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 90
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2017, 22:54:23 »
Bring back the Sam Browne belt, puttees, aluminium mess tins, Ross Rifle, old style raingear that lets water in and keeps it in, the Iltis...

I agree with the Sam Browne belt, that always looked great.  Bring back the Iltis, fun thing to drive however, that old style rain gear can stay lost....I hated that piece of useless kit more than the puttess!
Proud To Have Served My Country!

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 242,110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,621
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2017, 00:24:20 »
I agree with the Sam Browne belt, that always looked great. 

I'm guessing that you've never had to highly polish one.... an activity that should be introduced as an activity to break down the resistance of POWs prior to interrogation.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Mike63

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 4,200
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 90
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2017, 00:57:00 »
I'm guessing that you've never had to highly polish one.... an activity that should be introduced as an activity to break down the resistance of POWs prior to interrogation.

LoL...no I've never even wore one, I'm just saying that they looked good.  When I was in the Army Cadets in the 70's, only the two CSM's and the RSM work the Sam Browne, except they were black, don't know why that was.  I did have the old web belt with the brass buckles though...they were a pain to keep shiny!
Proud To Have Served My Country!

Offline Pusser

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 87,210
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,850
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2017, 10:54:20 »
The Clothing and Dress Committee has recently approved the wear of cufflinks with long-sleeved shirts in No 1 and 3 orders of dress (they were always approved in No 2 orders).  I think it's great that Logistik has taken on the task of putting the extra button holes on the cuffs as it saves me the effort of doing it myself (which I've been doing for years).  It's worth noting though that wearing cufflinks is not mandatory.  The shirts still include buttons on the cuff, so the choice remains with the member.

Tangential rant:  There is no such order of dress called, "DEU."  "DEU" is/was a project name meaning, "Distinctive Environmental Uniform," and it refers to all uniforms deemed to be distinctly environmental, including mess dress.  In other words, all No 1, 2 and 3 orders of dress are "DEU."  When dress is promulgated, it should be in the form of "1," "1A," "2B," "3D," etc.  To tell folks to wear, "DEU," is actually quite meaningless as there are many forms (e.g. jacket and tie with/without medals, mess dress, short sleeve shirts, etc.).  If only there was a book that described all of this...
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Big Spoon

  • New Member
  • **
  • 3,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 42
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2017, 11:45:54 »
Just took a look at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-265/dhh_dress_instr_adh265000_ag001-19Sep16-eng.pdf and did a search of Cuff Link and did not find any instruction for wear for anything outside of mess dress. That being said I know that the instruction will be coming out.


I like shiny things and all but I'm not sure what I think about this.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 13:42:00 by Big Spoon »

Offline dangerboy

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 330,909
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,923
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2017, 13:38:44 »
The Clothing and Dress Committee has recently approved the wear of cufflinks with long-sleeved shirts in No 1 and 3 orders of dress (they were always approved in No 2 orders). 

Do you have a link for this? I just looked at the National Defence Clothing and Dress Committee minutes that are online from 2 Dec 16 (the most recent one online) to 30 Sep 11 at http://cmp-cpm.mil.ca/en/honours-history/publications-history/national-defence-clothing-dress-committee.page and could not find any reference to this.
All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us... they can't get away this time.
- Lt Gen Lewis B. Puller, USMC

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 222,085
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,809
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2017, 22:27:50 »
Good to know. One of my co-workers is an air cadet instructor, so I'll see if it's the same case for the blue shirts (I would assume it is at this point).

 :nod:
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Furniture

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 28,422
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 416
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2017, 00:42:24 »
Just took a look at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-265/dhh_dress_instr_adh265000_ag001-19Sep16-eng.pdf and did a search of Cuff Link and did not find any instruction for wear for anything outside of mess dress. That being said I know that the instruction will be coming out.


I like shiny things and all but I'm not sure what I think about this.

This is one of the least offensive and expensive things yet. You can wear them or not, just like a tie bar... bring on the cuff links, or not!

Offline Big Spoon

  • New Member
  • **
  • 3,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 42
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2017, 06:49:24 »
WeatherdoG, if you are who I think you are (by looking at your profile) then you well know that I love shiny objects, I'm not sure I'll be taking part in this one.

Offline Pusser

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 87,210
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,850
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2017, 10:55:33 »
Do you have a link for this? I just looked at the National Defence Clothing and Dress Committee minutes that are online from 2 Dec 16 (the most recent one online) to 30 Sep 11 at http://cmp-cpm.mil.ca/en/honours-history/publications-history/national-defence-clothing-dress-committee.page and could not find any reference to this.

Those are indeed the correct set of minutes.  Perhaps it's just not obvious as that is not the heading of the paragraph where it is mentioned.

Para 11 refers:

11.  Changes to Long and Short Sleeve Shirt Material

RCAF brought forward concerns with changes to the standard of the material being used in our shirts. DSSPM confirmed that the material has been looked at by the Tech Authority and it has been deemed to fall within the specifications of the contract. DSSPM will conduct “hand-tests” across all three elements and report back to NDCDC. Buttonholes for French cuffs as previously approved will be added to LS Shirts; policy for cuffs will be promulgated in the near future by environments, and added to the Dress Manual.
Item: Open


Of course, they got the type of cuff wrong.  All they're doing is putting a button hole on the other side of the cuff, turning it into a "convertible cuff" (i.e. one that can be closed with either a button or a cufflink), but it is still a single cuff.  A "French cuff" is a double cuff (i.e. one that is double in length and turned back on itself - considered more formal), which is not what we're getting. 
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 222,085
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,809
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2017, 11:15:04 »
which is not what we're getting.

Oh, that is actually good to hear.  I can't imagine ever wearing cufflinks on my LS shirt but...it might actually look sweet with my Austin Power boots and Yukon hat!   ;D

I think I'll get a set of these, and get a picture of the Sqn boss and SCWO put in each one. 

Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 456,840
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,609
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2017, 11:18:46 »
There are some sellers on eBay offering a pair of compasses set in cufflinks - perfect for the ACSO in your life...
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 177,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,229
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2017, 11:21:43 »
There are some sellers on eBay offering a pair of compasses set in cufflinks - perfect for the ACSO in your life...

No, but miniature GPSes though...   ;)
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 456,840
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,609
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2017, 11:25:36 »
Re: French cuffs and cufflinks: Item first raised by the RCN in 2015; dress committee endorsed it as an optional item for the RCN, with only RCN Ensign cufflinks, to be purchased at member's expense.

Somehow, this has morphed... good idea fairies are everywhere.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Simian Turner

    is a veteran who enjoys oddities!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 49,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,641
  • Do the right thing; do the thing right!
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2017, 00:23:18 »
So if you choose to wear cuff links and some others don't, does that take the uniformity out of the uniform.  Maybe it is more like the variety of berets and styles that you see in a military unit, to each his own and uniformity is lost.  Having to starch French cuffs so that you could actually wear the cuff links would surely be a deterrent to some.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 00:27:56 by Simian Turner »
The grand essentials of happiness: something to do, something to love, something to hope for.  Allan K. Chalmers

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 222,452
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,208
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2017, 00:46:43 »
So this is what the deep thinkers in the CAF have come up with?

 :facepalm:
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline FSTO

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 49,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,781
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2017, 09:13:52 »
So if you choose to wear cuff links and some others don't, does that take the uniformity out of the uniform.  Maybe it is more like the variety of berets and styles that you see in a military unit, to each his own and uniformity is lost.  Having to starch French cuffs so that you could actually wear the cuff links would surely be a deterrent to some.

The shirts will not have French Cuffs. There will be a hole in the regular cuff to put cuff links through. Not a big deal.

Offline Simian Turner

    is a veteran who enjoys oddities!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 49,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,641
  • Do the right thing; do the thing right!
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2017, 09:59:36 »
The shirts will not have French Cuffs. There will be a hole in the regular cuff to put cuff links through. Not a big deal.

I have read this thread and know they won't have French cuffs. I was merely observing that the announcement said they would and it would be deterrent if it was accurate.
The grand essentials of happiness: something to do, something to love, something to hope for.  Allan K. Chalmers

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 84,540
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,592
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2017, 13:00:06 »
Well, I'm glad that the whole cuff link thing for LS shirts, that I'm not sure anyone in any numbers was clamoring for, has been approved.   

Yet the Army still is adamant that fleece is not an outer garment, even though that has been coming up in town halls with the troops since the fleece entered the system (even though the RCAF has made it work even for RCAF pers on Army bases without the sun exploding), ball caps are not military headdress (RCN seems to have decided otherwise) and we are absolutely steadfast that short hair and clean shaven is a hygiene requirement and the standard that males will follow notwithstanding this is another item perennially on the town hall topic list, even through hundreds, maybe thousands, across the CAF are wearing beards due to being RCN, having a medical chit, Muslim, Sikh, Norse pagan or any other religious accommodation without their face falling off and somehow the ladies with long hair, Indigenous, Sikh and others with religious accommodations for hair length, somehow avoid lice infestations.  And...uniformity, right?

But I get it, cuff links were huge in the times when we had "historical" ranks and uniforms so this is a logical progression for the minority of the CAF who actually care about such things.  Next up?  Regimental and Branch Ascots for short sleeve shirts that I'm sure 2 or 3 people who loved the things would be happy to see back? I still have mine, somewhere, so that will save me some money I guess...

End of the day, there are a bunch of items that the Dress Committee could take on and approve that would have a far more beneficial impact on morale because large numbers of people actually care about the issues, yet we keep seeing stuff sprung on us out of the blue that 99.5% of the CAF really doesn't care about that somehow makes its way onto the agenda.

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2017, 15:40:28 »
C'mon, nothing says 70's stylin like a bitching Ascot.   8)

Seriously though, l'd like a head dress l could wear with NCD in winter that doesn't let the wind whistle over/hit my ever expanding forehead like the knit of my black toque does.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 15:45:45 by jollyjacktar »

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 140,725
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,649
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2017, 15:55:57 »
That head dress exists, JJT.

I know that the "RCMP" hat like that was authorized at some point in the 90's so long as it was purchased at one's own cost. I don't know if it still is the case. Personally, I always felt it was the perfect winter head dress for operational dress and would have liked to see it adopted as such.


jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2017, 16:24:44 »
True, and l love mine dearly but its not authorized for NCD.  CFs only.

Offline RomeoJuliet

  • Donor
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 10,885
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 475
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2017, 16:57:21 »
That head dress exists, JJT.

I know that the "RCMP" hat like that was authorized at some point in the 90's so long as it was purchased at one's own cost. I don't know if it still is the case. Personally, I always felt it was the perfect winter head dress for operational dress and would have liked to see it adopted as such.
Yukon headdress can be ordered via Logistik.  Vast improvement over the massive toaster like monstrosity from the 80's early 90's.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 177,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,229
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2017, 17:33:38 »
That head dress exists, JJT.

I know that the "RCMP" hat like that was authorized at some point in the 90's so long as it was purchased at one's own cost. I don't know if it still is the case. Personally, I always felt it was the perfect winter head dress for operational dress and would have liked to see it adopted as such.

I'd like to think that the Ushanka would lose all credibility if it wasn't Sean Connery wearing it in that scene.  That being said, I love my Muskrat hat.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline RomeoJuliet

  • Donor
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 10,885
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 475
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2017, 19:14:32 »
I'd like to think that the Ushanka would lose all credibility if it wasn't Sean Connery wearing it in that scene.  That being said, I love my Muskrat hat.
It is a sweet piece of kit. Sean Connery is a stylish gentleman. Has there ever been a unit on parade with all members wearing it? Photos or it didn’t happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 222,085
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,809
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2017, 22:53:43 »
Yukon headdress can be ordered via Logistik.  Vast improvement over the massive toaster like monstrosity from the 80's early 90's.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The RQ at our unit back in the day dubbed it the “cap, fuzzy, ridiculous”.
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 222,085
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,809
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2017, 10:30:15 »
Well, I'm glad that the whole cuff link thing for LS shirts, that I'm not sure anyone in any numbers was clamoring for, has been approved.   

Yet the Army still is adamant that fleece is not an outer garment, even though that has been coming up in town halls with the troops since the fleece entered the system (even though the RCAF has made it work even for RCAF pers on Army bases without the sun exploding), ball caps are not military headdress (RCN seems to have decided otherwise) and we are absolutely steadfast that short hair and clean shaven is a hygiene requirement and the standard that males will follow notwithstanding this is another item perennially on the town hall topic list, even through hundreds, maybe thousands, across the CAF are wearing beards due to being RCN, having a medical chit, Muslim, Sikh, Norse pagan or any other religious accommodation without their face falling off and somehow the ladies with long hair, Indigenous, Sikh and others with religious accommodations for hair length, somehow avoid lice infestations.  And...uniformity, right?

But I get it, cuff links were huge in the times when we had "historical" ranks and uniforms so this is a logical progression for the minority of the CAF who actually care about such things.  Next up?  Regimental and Branch Ascots for short sleeve shirts that I'm sure 2 or 3 people who loved the things would be happy to see back? I still have mine, somewhere, so that will save me some money I guess...

End of the day, there are a bunch of items that the Dress Committee could take on and approve that would have a far more beneficial impact on morale because large numbers of people actually care about the issues, yet we keep seeing stuff sprung on us out of the blue that 99.5% of the CAF really doesn't care about that somehow makes its way onto the agenda.

I flip the coin on the whole lot of it.   Is beards and who can grown their hair long REALLY the biggest issues we face?  I am like my WCWO.  I am so ******* tired of the talk about beards.  Seriously if the most grave issue that a group of people can bring up at a Wing townhall is beards we as a military are so far into the hurt locker it’s more than concerning. 

The RCAF fleece was designed as outerwear from the get go.   Epilauttes for rank slips on and Velcro for name tapes etc.  The army designed it differently with a different intended use.  Is this really the most pressing issue people posted to the C Army have?

Your post suggest there are other more pressing issues than cuff link have les that need to be addressed like beards and fleece.  I see things that fall under the lists I will call Operations and Support etc that should be a higher priority than all of this dress crap.

Why don’t we insist at town halls those things get sorted out instead of beards and fleece?  Because beards and fleece don’t add to or detract from our ability to close with and destroy an enemy.  Or keep SLOCs open.  Or intercept airborne or seaborne threats tonour northern border.  Stuff like that. 

Beards. I could care less.  Our aging fighter and MPA fleets....those are real issues. 
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 920,570
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,177
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2017, 10:34:18 »
Problem is, beards can be changed by the CAF CWO with support of the CDS. Fighters, MPAs and the 50 other major equipment pieces that are falling apart need funds from the government, and I'd like to think the troops are smart enough to know that. Why ***** about something you know the person running the townhall has no ability to change?

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 222,085
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,809
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2017, 10:37:42 »
I’ll answer with a question.  Why give Snr leadership the impression we care about beards more than real issues?

I went to a townhall with the 1 Cdn Air Div Commander last summer.  Someone wasted 15 minutes over the topic of digital signature and their use.  Seriously?  This is the best use of time with the Div Cmdr????????

We focus on the peas and not the steak far to frequently when given the opportunity to bend the ear of leadership.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 10:44:27 by Eye In The Sky »
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 180,105
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,947
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2017, 12:41:41 »
I’ll answer with a question.  Why give Snr leadership the impression we care about beards more than real issues?

I went to a townhall with the 1 Cdn Air Div Commander last summer.  Someone wasted 15 minutes over the topic of digital signature and their use.  Seriously?  This is the best use of time with the Div Cmdr????????

We focus on the peas and not the steak far to frequently when given the opportunity to bend the ear of leadership.

Now, I served in an era when open to all ranks townhalls with senior commanders were unheard of, but the same picking flyshit from pepper was also heard during Pl Comd's/OC's/CO's hours.  While I respect your interest in making use of these rare opportunities to raise matters of operational importance, my take is that these meetings (like a Pl Comd's hour) is a way to informally pass on info of general interest and to gauge what is bugging the troops.  Well, for the "time wasting someone", the issue of digital signatures was obviously important enough for him/her to raise it in that venue; perhaps the concerns they had had not been adequately met when raised at a lower level.  Of course, there will always be that certain someone who wants to jump in with a comment/question just to hear themselves speak.  Did you ever think that the "digital signature" dude may also think that always bringing up issues that can only be addressed by the political masters may be wasting time and doing so excludes issues (like his) that could actually be resolved by bringing it to the direct attention of a higher commander.

Not everyone's burning issue is ops primacy.  For a lot of soldiers/sailors/airmen, their quality of life boils down to getting paid regularly (and better), being able to have some freedom in their appearance, not getting ****ed over and generally having a fun time.
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 222,085
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,809
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2017, 16:38:56 »

Not everyone's burning issue is ops primacy.  For a lot of soldiers/sailors/airmen, their quality of life boils down to getting paid regularly (and better), being able to have some freedom in their appearance, not getting ****ed over and generally having a fun time.

Trust me, I know.  Hence why we are discussing the importance of beards and digital signatures over the importance of ALSE, decent boots and a whole other list of things that hold actual importance to the business a military conducts.  There's generally 2 types of folks in the military;  those who conduct ops, and those who support.  I've seen way too much tail wagging the dog the past several years, where the "operations are cutting into administration" mindsets prevail.

There's a slight difference in Pl Comd's hour and *Air Div Cmdrs* hour.  IMO.  Time and place, know your audience, etc.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 16:43:08 by Eye In The Sky »
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline captloadie

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 37,178
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 597
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2017, 09:02:42 »
EITS - You have enough time in and experience to know that you can ask the pointy ended questions all you want, and you will never get an answer from a Div Cmdr or the Comd RCAF. Why you may ask? Because the big things are almost all politically motivated in some way (and I'm not just talking Gov't politics, I mean office politics as well).
The higher echelon positions aren't just about being great leaders anymore. They need to be great managers, and great politicians. If I were the 1 CAD Comd, at the beginning of every town hall question period, I'd say "If your question is about when PLD is going to change, when we are getting new airframes, why you can't get flight suits or boots, I am abundantly aware of your concerns, but I don't have the answers. So what's on your minds?"

As for your blanket statement about the support apparatus wagging the dog, maybe don't paint everyone with the same brush. We as an organization have lost much of our ability to control the support processes. PSPC and SSC are external orgs that we must bow to. And every time DTEP comes calling for bodies to make more pointy ended positions, the support side usually takes the hit.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 222,085
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,809
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2017, 17:04:05 »
My "tail wagging dog" examples that pop into my head are all ones within a JTF org and not anywhere near SSC, etc.  They were definitely all caused by folks in uniform trying to "play army".  Missions and 'engaging the enemy' shouldn't have SFA to do with parade plans/requirements, CofC ceremonies and stuff like that but...in this day and age, they have been. 

I'd still rather send my Comd the message "the things you mentioned are really my concerns, so if you don't have anything on those, then lets all get back to work.  Beards and digital signatures aren't that important afterall".  That's me.  I rarely wear Yukon hats, long sleeve CF shirts and such.

I do wish I had a decent flashlight (I bought my own...), survival knife (again...I bought my own...a Mora Bushcraft Surival in orange)...I'd kill for an EO turret with a LD in it (I did NOT buy my own of this one...).
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 84,540
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,592
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2017, 21:51:59 »
I flip the coin on the whole lot of it.   Is beards and who can grown their hair long REALLY the biggest issues we face?  I am like my WCWO.  I am so ******* tired of the talk about beards.  Seriously if the most grave issue that a group of people can bring up at a Wing townhall is beards we as a military are so far into the hurt locker it’s more than concerning. 
The problem is we, the CAF, has allowed it to become a problem.  We have let people game the system by trumping up excuses to get medical chits. 

I was at a briefing where the senior medical staff of a major base stated they didn't even have control of the issue anymore; when they started to crack down on chits, a dermatologist in the city next to the Base realized there was money to be made and started providing "specialist" chits that the Base surgeon had no choice but to accept.  So now the latest is we are going to "enforce" the rule that a no shaving chit means no shaving at all in order to lessen the incentive to fake a problem to grow a beard.  So we have people with beards that start under their eyeballs and continue right on into their chest hair; how professional and uniform looking is that?  We also have inconsistent wording on shave chits.  I've seen it vary from "no shaving" all the way to, "shaving as tolerated by member's skin condition"...

Fortunately we have the DAOD on religious accommodation which is already the go-to for those who want a beard (and usually there is a caveat thrown in about hair length as well)...which they get to decide what it looks like IAW their "religion" (Can't wait to see someone with the braided ponytail beard a la Vikings on some self identified Norse pagan).

Quote
The RCAF fleece was designed as outerwear from the get go.   Epilauttes for rank slips on and Velcro for name tapes etc.  The army designed it differently with a different intended use.
Really?  The Army did?  Only piece of "non-outwear" I've been issued that has an epulate, and none of my "underwear" has an epulate. I've heard a dozen different reasons on what the intent was, and why it can't be worn as outer wear, none of them make any sense (a Bde SM proclaimed it was sleep wear only). Even the official fallback now, that it doesn't have a nametape, doesn't hold water.  My gabardine, nylon DEU rainjacket or DEU parka don't need a nametag, yet somehow I can wear those a-ok as outerwear.  End of the day, there is no "reason" we couldn't wear it as outerwear, other than a few people who can't admit that maybe a bad call was made when the item was originally issued.

As for why the troops "waste time" in townhalls with the senior leaders about this stuff, it's pretty simple.  They have formed the opinion that the message isn't being passed up the chain because "someone" doesn't like the idea.  They are right, "someone" doesn't like the idea, unfortunately they are right at the top and more concerned with historical rank, velcro army qualification badges on CADPAT (conveniently combat arms centric), patrol blues, cuff links...

As someone pointed out, these are zero cost, zero effort initiatives we could give the troops to show them we are listening and can move forward with the times instead of constantly looking and moving backwards...

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2017, 22:39:28 »
The RQ at our unit back in the day dubbed it the “cap, fuzzy, ridiculous”.

It made a fantastic wash mitt for the vehicles.

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 207,950
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,762
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2017, 22:46:56 »
Can't wait to see someone with the braided ponytail beard a la Vikings on some self identified Norse pagan.
It is already out there.  I have seen it twice.

Offline garb811

  • MP/MPO Question Answerer
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 84,540
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,592
Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2017, 22:53:31 »
It is already out there.  I have seen it twice.
:facepalm: