Author Topic: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks  (Read 13338 times)

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Offline Simian Turner

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2017, 09:59:36 »
The shirts will not have French Cuffs. There will be a hole in the regular cuff to put cuff links through. Not a big deal.

I have read this thread and know they won't have French cuffs. I was merely observing that the announcement said they would and it would be deterrent if it was accurate.
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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2017, 13:00:06 »
Well, I'm glad that the whole cuff link thing for LS shirts, that I'm not sure anyone in any numbers was clamoring for, has been approved.   

Yet the Army still is adamant that fleece is not an outer garment, even though that has been coming up in town halls with the troops since the fleece entered the system (even though the RCAF has made it work even for RCAF pers on Army bases without the sun exploding), ball caps are not military headdress (RCN seems to have decided otherwise) and we are absolutely steadfast that short hair and clean shaven is a hygiene requirement and the standard that males will follow notwithstanding this is another item perennially on the town hall topic list, even through hundreds, maybe thousands, across the CAF are wearing beards due to being RCN, having a medical chit, Muslim, Sikh, Norse pagan or any other religious accommodation without their face falling off and somehow the ladies with long hair, Indigenous, Sikh and others with religious accommodations for hair length, somehow avoid lice infestations.  And...uniformity, right?

But I get it, cuff links were huge in the times when we had "historical" ranks and uniforms so this is a logical progression for the minority of the CAF who actually care about such things.  Next up?  Regimental and Branch Ascots for short sleeve shirts that I'm sure 2 or 3 people who loved the things would be happy to see back? I still have mine, somewhere, so that will save me some money I guess...

End of the day, there are a bunch of items that the Dress Committee could take on and approve that would have a far more beneficial impact on morale because large numbers of people actually care about the issues, yet we keep seeing stuff sprung on us out of the blue that 99.5% of the CAF really doesn't care about that somehow makes its way onto the agenda.

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2017, 15:40:28 »
C'mon, nothing says 70's stylin like a bitching Ascot.   8)

Seriously though, l'd like a head dress l could wear with NCD in winter that doesn't let the wind whistle over/hit my ever expanding forehead like the knit of my black toque does.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 15:45:45 by jollyjacktar »

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2017, 15:55:57 »
That head dress exists, JJT.

I know that the "RCMP" hat like that was authorized at some point in the 90's so long as it was purchased at one's own cost. I don't know if it still is the case. Personally, I always felt it was the perfect winter head dress for operational dress and would have liked to see it adopted as such.


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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2017, 16:24:44 »
True, and l love mine dearly but its not authorized for NCD.  CFs only.

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2017, 16:57:21 »
That head dress exists, JJT.

I know that the "RCMP" hat like that was authorized at some point in the 90's so long as it was purchased at one's own cost. I don't know if it still is the case. Personally, I always felt it was the perfect winter head dress for operational dress and would have liked to see it adopted as such.
Yukon headdress can be ordered via Logistik.  Vast improvement over the massive toaster like monstrosity from the 80's early 90's.


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Offline Dimsum

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2017, 17:33:38 »
That head dress exists, JJT.

I know that the "RCMP" hat like that was authorized at some point in the 90's so long as it was purchased at one's own cost. I don't know if it still is the case. Personally, I always felt it was the perfect winter head dress for operational dress and would have liked to see it adopted as such.

I'd like to think that the Ushanka would lose all credibility if it wasn't Sean Connery wearing it in that scene.  That being said, I love my Muskrat hat.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2017, 19:14:32 »
I'd like to think that the Ushanka would lose all credibility if it wasn't Sean Connery wearing it in that scene.  That being said, I love my Muskrat hat.
It is a sweet piece of kit. Sean Connery is a stylish gentleman. Has there ever been a unit on parade with all members wearing it? Photos or it didn’t happen.


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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2017, 22:53:43 »
Yukon headdress can be ordered via Logistik.  Vast improvement over the massive toaster like monstrosity from the 80's early 90's.


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The RQ at our unit back in the day dubbed it the “cap, fuzzy, ridiculous”.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2017, 10:30:15 »
Well, I'm glad that the whole cuff link thing for LS shirts, that I'm not sure anyone in any numbers was clamoring for, has been approved.   

Yet the Army still is adamant that fleece is not an outer garment, even though that has been coming up in town halls with the troops since the fleece entered the system (even though the RCAF has made it work even for RCAF pers on Army bases without the sun exploding), ball caps are not military headdress (RCN seems to have decided otherwise) and we are absolutely steadfast that short hair and clean shaven is a hygiene requirement and the standard that males will follow notwithstanding this is another item perennially on the town hall topic list, even through hundreds, maybe thousands, across the CAF are wearing beards due to being RCN, having a medical chit, Muslim, Sikh, Norse pagan or any other religious accommodation without their face falling off and somehow the ladies with long hair, Indigenous, Sikh and others with religious accommodations for hair length, somehow avoid lice infestations.  And...uniformity, right?

But I get it, cuff links were huge in the times when we had "historical" ranks and uniforms so this is a logical progression for the minority of the CAF who actually care about such things.  Next up?  Regimental and Branch Ascots for short sleeve shirts that I'm sure 2 or 3 people who loved the things would be happy to see back? I still have mine, somewhere, so that will save me some money I guess...

End of the day, there are a bunch of items that the Dress Committee could take on and approve that would have a far more beneficial impact on morale because large numbers of people actually care about the issues, yet we keep seeing stuff sprung on us out of the blue that 99.5% of the CAF really doesn't care about that somehow makes its way onto the agenda.

I flip the coin on the whole lot of it.   Is beards and who can grown their hair long REALLY the biggest issues we face?  I am like my WCWO.  I am so ******* tired of the talk about beards.  Seriously if the most grave issue that a group of people can bring up at a Wing townhall is beards we as a military are so far into the hurt locker it’s more than concerning. 

The RCAF fleece was designed as outerwear from the get go.   Epilauttes for rank slips on and Velcro for name tapes etc.  The army designed it differently with a different intended use.  Is this really the most pressing issue people posted to the C Army have?

Your post suggest there are other more pressing issues than cuff link have les that need to be addressed like beards and fleece.  I see things that fall under the lists I will call Operations and Support etc that should be a higher priority than all of this dress crap.

Why don’t we insist at town halls those things get sorted out instead of beards and fleece?  Because beards and fleece don’t add to or detract from our ability to close with and destroy an enemy.  Or keep SLOCs open.  Or intercept airborne or seaborne threats tonour northern border.  Stuff like that. 

Beards. I could care less.  Our aging fighter and MPA fleets....those are real issues. 
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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2017, 10:34:18 »
Problem is, beards can be changed by the CAF CWO with support of the CDS. Fighters, MPAs and the 50 other major equipment pieces that are falling apart need funds from the government, and I'd like to think the troops are smart enough to know that. Why ***** about something you know the person running the townhall has no ability to change?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2017, 10:37:42 »
I’ll answer with a question.  Why give Snr leadership the impression we care about beards more than real issues?

I went to a townhall with the 1 Cdn Air Div Commander last summer.  Someone wasted 15 minutes over the topic of digital signature and their use.  Seriously?  This is the best use of time with the Div Cmdr????????

We focus on the peas and not the steak far to frequently when given the opportunity to bend the ear of leadership.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 10:44:27 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2017, 12:41:41 »
I’ll answer with a question.  Why give Snr leadership the impression we care about beards more than real issues?

I went to a townhall with the 1 Cdn Air Div Commander last summer.  Someone wasted 15 minutes over the topic of digital signature and their use.  Seriously?  This is the best use of time with the Div Cmdr????????

We focus on the peas and not the steak far to frequently when given the opportunity to bend the ear of leadership.

Now, I served in an era when open to all ranks townhalls with senior commanders were unheard of, but the same picking flyshit from pepper was also heard during Pl Comd's/OC's/CO's hours.  While I respect your interest in making use of these rare opportunities to raise matters of operational importance, my take is that these meetings (like a Pl Comd's hour) is a way to informally pass on info of general interest and to gauge what is bugging the troops.  Well, for the "time wasting someone", the issue of digital signatures was obviously important enough for him/her to raise it in that venue; perhaps the concerns they had had not been adequately met when raised at a lower level.  Of course, there will always be that certain someone who wants to jump in with a comment/question just to hear themselves speak.  Did you ever think that the "digital signature" dude may also think that always bringing up issues that can only be addressed by the political masters may be wasting time and doing so excludes issues (like his) that could actually be resolved by bringing it to the direct attention of a higher commander.

Not everyone's burning issue is ops primacy.  For a lot of soldiers/sailors/airmen, their quality of life boils down to getting paid regularly (and better), being able to have some freedom in their appearance, not getting ****ed over and generally having a fun time.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2017, 16:38:56 »

Not everyone's burning issue is ops primacy.  For a lot of soldiers/sailors/airmen, their quality of life boils down to getting paid regularly (and better), being able to have some freedom in their appearance, not getting ****ed over and generally having a fun time.

Trust me, I know.  Hence why we are discussing the importance of beards and digital signatures over the importance of ALSE, decent boots and a whole other list of things that hold actual importance to the business a military conducts.  There's generally 2 types of folks in the military;  those who conduct ops, and those who support.  I've seen way too much tail wagging the dog the past several years, where the "operations are cutting into administration" mindsets prevail.

There's a slight difference in Pl Comd's hour and *Air Div Cmdrs* hour.  IMO.  Time and place, know your audience, etc.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 16:43:08 by Eye In The Sky »
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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2017, 09:02:42 »
EITS - You have enough time in and experience to know that you can ask the pointy ended questions all you want, and you will never get an answer from a Div Cmdr or the Comd RCAF. Why you may ask? Because the big things are almost all politically motivated in some way (and I'm not just talking Gov't politics, I mean office politics as well).
The higher echelon positions aren't just about being great leaders anymore. They need to be great managers, and great politicians. If I were the 1 CAD Comd, at the beginning of every town hall question period, I'd say "If your question is about when PLD is going to change, when we are getting new airframes, why you can't get flight suits or boots, I am abundantly aware of your concerns, but I don't have the answers. So what's on your minds?"

As for your blanket statement about the support apparatus wagging the dog, maybe don't paint everyone with the same brush. We as an organization have lost much of our ability to control the support processes. PSPC and SSC are external orgs that we must bow to. And every time DTEP comes calling for bodies to make more pointy ended positions, the support side usually takes the hit.

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2017, 17:04:05 »
My "tail wagging dog" examples that pop into my head are all ones within a JTF org and not anywhere near SSC, etc.  They were definitely all caused by folks in uniform trying to "play army".  Missions and 'engaging the enemy' shouldn't have SFA to do with parade plans/requirements, CofC ceremonies and stuff like that but...in this day and age, they have been. 

I'd still rather send my Comd the message "the things you mentioned are really my concerns, so if you don't have anything on those, then lets all get back to work.  Beards and digital signatures aren't that important afterall".  That's me.  I rarely wear Yukon hats, long sleeve CF shirts and such.

I do wish I had a decent flashlight (I bought my own...), survival knife (again...I bought my own...a Mora Bushcraft Surival in orange)...I'd kill for an EO turret with a LD in it (I did NOT buy my own of this one...).
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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2017, 21:51:59 »
I flip the coin on the whole lot of it.   Is beards and who can grown their hair long REALLY the biggest issues we face?  I am like my WCWO.  I am so ******* tired of the talk about beards.  Seriously if the most grave issue that a group of people can bring up at a Wing townhall is beards we as a military are so far into the hurt locker it’s more than concerning. 
The problem is we, the CAF, has allowed it to become a problem.  We have let people game the system by trumping up excuses to get medical chits. 

I was at a briefing where the senior medical staff of a major base stated they didn't even have control of the issue anymore; when they started to crack down on chits, a dermatologist in the city next to the Base realized there was money to be made and started providing "specialist" chits that the Base surgeon had no choice but to accept.  So now the latest is we are going to "enforce" the rule that a no shaving chit means no shaving at all in order to lessen the incentive to fake a problem to grow a beard.  So we have people with beards that start under their eyeballs and continue right on into their chest hair; how professional and uniform looking is that?  We also have inconsistent wording on shave chits.  I've seen it vary from "no shaving" all the way to, "shaving as tolerated by member's skin condition"...

Fortunately we have the DAOD on religious accommodation which is already the go-to for those who want a beard (and usually there is a caveat thrown in about hair length as well)...which they get to decide what it looks like IAW their "religion" (Can't wait to see someone with the braided ponytail beard a la Vikings on some self identified Norse pagan).

Quote
The RCAF fleece was designed as outerwear from the get go.   Epilauttes for rank slips on and Velcro for name tapes etc.  The army designed it differently with a different intended use.
Really?  The Army did?  Only piece of "non-outwear" I've been issued that has an epulate, and none of my "underwear" has an epulate. I've heard a dozen different reasons on what the intent was, and why it can't be worn as outer wear, none of them make any sense (a Bde SM proclaimed it was sleep wear only). Even the official fallback now, that it doesn't have a nametape, doesn't hold water.  My gabardine, nylon DEU rainjacket or DEU parka don't need a nametag, yet somehow I can wear those a-ok as outerwear.  End of the day, there is no "reason" we couldn't wear it as outerwear, other than a few people who can't admit that maybe a bad call was made when the item was originally issued.

As for why the troops "waste time" in townhalls with the senior leaders about this stuff, it's pretty simple.  They have formed the opinion that the message isn't being passed up the chain because "someone" doesn't like the idea.  They are right, "someone" doesn't like the idea, unfortunately they are right at the top and more concerned with historical rank, velcro army qualification badges on CADPAT (conveniently combat arms centric), patrol blues, cuff links...

As someone pointed out, these are zero cost, zero effort initiatives we could give the troops to show them we are listening and can move forward with the times instead of constantly looking and moving backwards...

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2017, 22:39:28 »
The RQ at our unit back in the day dubbed it the “cap, fuzzy, ridiculous”.

It made a fantastic wash mitt for the vehicles.

Offline MCG

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2017, 22:46:56 »
Can't wait to see someone with the braided ponytail beard a la Vikings on some self identified Norse pagan.
It is already out there.  I have seen it twice.

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Re: CF green dress shirts & cufflinks
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2017, 22:53:31 »
It is already out there.  I have seen it twice.
:facepalm: