Author Topic: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)  (Read 46914 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BurnDoctor

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • 14,167
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 80
I feel this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

For one, these cases would seem to meet the Criminal Code of Canada definition of treason; namely someone holding Canadian citizenship taking up arms against Canada or her allies. Yet we've heard no talk of prosecuting these "foreign fighters" or "travelling extremists", as the Government alternately calls them.

Secondly, their atrocities are not compatible with coexisting in civilized society.

Finally, having these individuals in Canada cheapens the citizenship of law-abiding Canadians, cheapens the service of CF members by essentially having the government in the role of fifth columnists, aiding and abetting the enemy, and dishonours the memory of CF members killed fighting extremism overseas. Presumeably an implicit reason for the effort in Afghanistan (in addition to the NATO obligation, and denying Afghanistan as a safe haven to extremists) was to avoid fighting extremists here by doing it  there. Why do that if we just turn around and let the enemy back? Why have Op Impact if we just welcome the enemy back, one of whom (M. Ali) has said that he no longer considers himself Canadian? This sickens me, and I know I can't be the only one.

Yes, there are some legal considerations - I get that - but if Trudeau can drag his feet on TMX and get nothing done, he could ld drag his feet on this too, and they could stay abroad indefinitely.

Time to go have a rage workout.

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 176,770
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,537
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
They can return to Canada, once they have been cleared of wrong doing in the country they committed the crime in or have served their sentence out.

Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 69,865
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,717
They can return to Canada, once they have been cleared of wrong doing in the country they committed the crime in or have served their sentence out.

As long as we don’t repatriate their remains after their death sentences.

Ramp ceremonies are for soldiers, not murderers and rapists.

Offline CloudCover

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 57,300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,643
If the plane is on the ground, then yes.
... Move!! ...

Offline ontheedge

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • -195
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 76
There was an incredible podcast called Caliphate. Ten part series or something. Went into great detail and interviews with former ISIS Canadian. Highly recommend this podcast for folks interested in the subject. Major takeaway:  proving crimes overseas is a difficult task according to canadian criminal justice standards.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 314,225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,193
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
I feel this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

For one, these cases would seem to meet the Criminal Code of Canada definition of treason; namely someone holding Canadian citizenship taking up arms against Canada or her allies. Yet we've heard no talk of prosecuting these "foreign fighters" or "travelling extremists", as the Government alternately calls them.

Secondly, their atrocities are not compatible with coexisting in civilized society.

Finally, having these individuals in Canada cheapens the citizenship of law-abiding Canadians, cheapens the service of CF members by essentially having the government in the role of fifth columnists, aiding and abetting the enemy, and dishonours the memory of CF members killed fighting extremism overseas. Presumeably an implicit reason for the effort in Afghanistan (in addition to the NATO obligation, and denying Afghanistan as a safe haven to extremists) was to avoid fighting extremists here by doing it  there. Why do that if we just turn around and let the enemy back? Why have Op Impact if we just welcome the enemy back, one of whom (M. Ali) has said that he no longer considers himself Canadian? This sickens me, and I know I can't be the only one.

Yes, there are some legal considerations - I get that - but if Trudeau can drag his feet on TMX and get nothing done, he could ld drag his feet on this too, and they could stay abroad indefinitely.

Time to go have a rage workout.

The Trudeau government just set the benchmark for cases like this, by making Omar Khadr a multi-milionaire, didn't they?


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/trudeau-defends-apology-and-105-million-payment-to-omar-khadr/article35623594/
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 19,840
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,417
proving crimes overseas is a difficult task according to canadian criminal justice standards.

Am I missing something?  Guy leaves Canada to join ISIS and we are worried about Canadian criminal justice standards.

Most of us on here are willing to put our lives on the line to defend the rights freedoms of Canadians and this mother ****** leaves to join an organization that throws people off buildings because of their sexual preference.   

He made his choice, he can live with it.    frig him.



Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 241,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,371
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
As much as I’m not a fan of Trudeau, seems like he handled this one correctly. There is obviously an intelligent gathering benefit from having a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada. And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.

CAF SOF and Aircrew who served in that theatre might not agree with this opinion.  They worked hard over there to take individuals like this out;  they (ISIS) would not have given any quarter to Coalition/MESF forces who they got their hands on.  They proved this when they burned Jordanian pilot Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeh alive in a cage and then smashed his charred corpse into the ground with a front-end loader.

Warning:  Extremely Graphic Video:  ISIS Burns Hostage Alive:  if you're interested, the cage on fire stuff starts at about 16:16, if your stomach is strong enough to see the horror this Officer suffered at his end.

Adult decisions come with adult consequences.  I feel no sorrow for any of them; neither would you if you knew some of the things that happened over there.  Do you really want this piece of crap and his kind in your backyard, because if they decided to fry you and yours, the Canadian Legal System would be able to do very little to stop them, if they were already in your backyard.  Think about it.  These people do not fear 'a legal system' and 'court ordered restrictions' and other bullshit like that.

RIP Lt. 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 07:06:49 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 364,106
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,486
CAF SOF and Aircrew who served in that theatre might not agree with this opinion. 

Neither would the Canadian soldier who was murdered 4 years ago today on Parliament Hill.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 69,865
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,717
I'd say almost everyone that conducted ops/collected Int on IMPACT knows how sick and ruthless these monsters are. They conduct genocide, enslave young girls, torture/execute/mutilate prisoners...

We could have done a lot more to kill these assholes while they were over there. Hands were tied.

A lot of the evidence against these assholes will likely never see the light of day. So they will come back, and walk our streets freely - likely with the help of the Canadian taxpayer.

They are guilty of treason full stop. Any politician, lawyer, or bureaucrat that disagrees is just as guilty - IMO. BZ to the other countries hunting these guys down still, and BZ to the Iraqis (flawed as they are) for giving them the "trials" they deserve.

 :2c:





Offline Kokanee

  • Member
  • ****
  • 1,870
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 113
The Trudeau government just set the benchmark for cases like this, by making Omar Khadr a multi-milionaire, didn't they? ...

There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.
Retired EW 291

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 314,225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,193
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.

To us, there is a difference. To them, not so much.
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Journeyman

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 584,935
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,494
One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands.....
While the fatherhood skills clearly weren't up to the level expected of Victoria Park & Eglington's finest citizens in Toronto, the rationale for the payout was the Supreme Court's unanimous ruling that found Khadr's human rights were being violated at Guantanamo Bay." 

The father was irrelevant;  Khadr could have been with al-Qaeda, the Shriners, or the Boy Scouts -- the slap was directed solely at the American's extrajudicial processes.

And to stoke the fires... while I disagree with the amount, and that Canada paid it and not the US (which, I suspect, was tied to CSIS involvement), I have absolutely no heartache with the thought process behind it.

     Gitmo is wrong   (as was Abu Ghraib)


And for anyone wringing hands about child soldiers, let's see what comes out of Mali.    :not-again:

Offline Kokanee

  • Member
  • ****
  • 1,870
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 113
While the fatherhood skills clearly weren't up to the level expected of Victoria Park & Eglington's finest citizens in Toronto, the rationale for the payout was the Supreme Court's unanimous ruling that found Khadr's human rights were being violated at Guantanamo Bay." 

The father was irrelevant;  Khadr could have been with al-Qaeda, the Shriners, or the Boy Scouts -- the slap was directed solely at the American's extrajudicial processes.

And to stoke the fires... while I disagree with the amount, and that Canada paid it and not the US (which, I suspect, was tied to CSIS involvement), I have absolutely no heartache with the thought process behind it.

     Gitmo is wrong   (as was Abu Ghraib)


And for anyone wringing hands about child soldiers, let's see what comes out of Mali.    :not-again:

agreed, my post was more about how the OP equated Mr.khadr to a terrorist.
Retired EW 291

Online PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 949,300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,782
agreed, my post was more about how the OP equated Mr.khadr to a terrorist.

He is a terrorist. He admitted it. To be honest, I wasn't fond of the criminal charges thing. Those pers captured on the battlefield could have just been treated as POWs and held until cessation of hostilities. Then we wouldn't have to worry about $10.5M payout, or ever seeing him walk free again.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 241,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,371
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.

Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

Offline ModlrMike

    : Riding time again... woohooo!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 228,614
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,054
    • Canadian Association of Physician Assistants
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

Not that I understand the LOAC better than you, but I would agree that the above actions constitute crimes against humanity at the very least. Coupled with their other actions such as perfidy, they are broadly classed as war crimes.
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
Zero tolerance is the politics of the lazy. All it requires is that you do nothing and ban everything.

Offline Fishbone Jones

    MSC -7995.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 283,462
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,681
    • Army.ca
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 01:45:46 by Fishbone Jones »
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 301,525
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,577
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition). 

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').

To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.

As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.

For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:

https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State

Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.

Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.

See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25

The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 241,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,371
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:

My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.

I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.

I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...

How ISIS Came To Be

Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 11:31:57 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 241,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,371
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.

As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.

For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:

https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State

Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.

Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.

See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25

The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:

Thanks for that!

Offline PPCLI Guy

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 233,210
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,858
  • It's all good
They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:

I tend to agree with you...
"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

Karl von Clausewitz

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 241,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,371
    • VP INTERNATIONAL

     Abu Ghraib)




The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal frig-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 314,225
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,193
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal frig-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".

When it comes to counter-insurgency, all Armies seem to need to learn the hard way, sadly, like Internment in NI in the 1970s, which resulted in a huge set of unintended consequences:

'Historians generally view the period of internment as inflaming sectarian tensions in Northern Ireland, while failing in its goal of arresting key members of the IRA. Many of the people arrested had no links whatsoever with the IRA, but their names appeared on the list of those to be arrested through bungling and incompetence. The list's lack of reliability and the arrests that followed, complemented by reports of internees being abused far in excess of the usual state violence, led to more nationalists identifying with the IRA and losing hope in non-violent methods. After Operation Demetrius, recruits came forward in huge numbers to join the Provisional and Official wings of the IRA. Internment also led to a sharp increase in violence. In the eight months before the operation, there were 34 conflict-related deaths in Northern Ireland. In the four months following it, 140 were killed.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius

“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Fishbone Jones

    MSC -7995.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 283,462
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,681
    • Army.ca
My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.

I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.

I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...

How ISIS Came To Be

Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:

Many of us have been in much closer contact with them than watching/reporting. Matter of perspective I guess, not a pissing contest.  :salute:
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.