Author Topic: Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)  (Read 31854 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 430,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,311
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #175 on: August 21, 2019, 11:12:20 »
   :facepalm:

And of course, no one will commit to anything  potentially controversial until after the election.
:nod:
Try them all in Den Hague and those convicted be jailed there.  They can swap stories about ethnic cleansing with the ex-Yugo's.
The idea of "..."a special international tribunal in north-east Syria to prosecute terrorists" to ensure that trials are "conducted fairly and in accordance with international law and human rights covenants and charters" ..." has been brought up by the Kurds currently hosting the terror tourists.  I suspect the same issue of getting evidence from war zones and/or less-than-fully-rule-of-law states that'll stand up in court goes for int'l courts as much as it does for Canadian courts.
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Cloud Cover

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 43,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,236
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #176 on: August 21, 2019, 14:59:20 »
It can be done though. There was a special court set up for prosecutions in Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge.

https://www.nurembergacademy.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Cambodia.pdf

https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=677119021086099006106006119118122088127008049065074002106110004027029109077121083073029003016045000030051090114084018115117087057042094035072064005007120079090127031089032086025022106116072094083014088082093097095116124030013069073089096087104104106013&EXT=pdf

https://journals.sagepub.com/eprint/7MKQ3K7iSXKK6tQPSWQi/full
Note: bit of a warning about making these crimes out in international law vs local, territorial, tribal or custom law- justice will be selective, limited and probably not what victims are entitled to see done, if there is any justice at all.
“This disjuncture between victim discourse and the delivery of ‘justice’ can in part be attributed to the selective delivery of justice offered by legal institutions (Robins, 2017: 45). Only a small number of atrocities fall within the scope of ICL, and of those only some will be acknowledged as such by the international community (Cryer, 2005; Simpson, 1997). Even those victims whose atrocities fall within ICL may be excluded from recognition and redress (Robins, 2017), as prosecutorial strategies prioritise specific harms and perpetrators over others (Pritchett, 2008; Côte, 2005). Those whose victimisations are prosecuted may continue to find themselves excluded from or marginalised by the trial process, as adversarial procedures may reduce their visibility within the courtroom (Dignan, 2005). These institutional choices with regards to jurisdictional limits, charges, and modes of victim participation, create what Kendall and Nouwen (2013) have termed a ‘pyramid’ of victimhood, with victims of harm at the bottom, and those recognised by ICL institutions as worthy of redress at the top.”

Going back up to what OGBD and FJAG are pointing out, it seems illogical to prosecute any of these ISIL criminals under country of origin or even international law. Justice should be delivered within the locality of where the crime was committed. To wit: Nuremberg is in Germany and some thoughts about the type and character of the law applied by the victors: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1946/04/nuremberg-a-fair-trial-a-dangerous-precedent/306492/



Living the lean life

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 240,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,821
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #177 on: August 21, 2019, 15:58:32 »
In the Citizen today, courtesy of Reuters:

Canada says it will not help Jihadi Jack come to the country

Pretty much as I’ve been saying... We can’t keep him out, but we don’t need to send him a plane or a ticket.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 21:47:00 by Brihard »
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 430,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,311
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #178 on: August 21, 2019, 16:59:40 »
Thanks for sharing, Cloud Cover - forgot about those.
Note: bit of a warning about making these crimes out in international law vs local, territorial, tribal or custom law- justice will be selective, limited and probably not what victims are entitled to see done, if there is any justice at all.
Sadly, this wouldn't be the only such system where this'll be true ... :(
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 430,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,311
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #179 on: August 22, 2019, 21:23:12 »
... And of course immediately after I post this, the next article I read mentions that the couple has separated. So it may well end up as father and son back in Canada.
Funny you should mention that ....  ;D
Quote
The father of Jack Letts, a Canadian who was stripped of his British citizenship over his alleged support for the Islamic State, says he is hoping to visit Canada in the coming weeks to advocate for his son’s repatriation and is considering a permanent move.

(...)

John said he and Ms. Lane are considering moving to Canada in the longer term because they’ve been “basically hounded out of Britain” for being Jack’s parents.

“It’s destroyed us in a personal sense. It’s destroyed our family. It’s certainly destroyed us financially. We’re about destitute. We literally can’t pay the rent so we have to abandon our rented house,” John said.

The couple was sentenced to 15 months in prison in June, but the judge suspended the sentence for a year, saying they had lost sight of reality while trying to help their son.

John said he and Ms. Lane would like to be in Canada if Jack is repatriated, so they can support him through his return.

“If Britain doesn’t like who I am, I’d happily move to Canada, and we’re talking about that as an option," he said ...
More in the Globe & Mail here.
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 301,701
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,078
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #180 on: August 22, 2019, 21:46:51 »
Here's an idea.

John Letts and Ms Lane can hop on a flight to Syria and go support their son over there.

There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 430,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,311
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #181 on: August 22, 2019, 21:51:40 »
John Letts and Ms Lane can hop on a flight to Syria and go support their son over there.
And they though the UK treated them badly for sending money to an ISIS member ...
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 240,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,821
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #182 on: August 22, 2019, 21:58:45 »
Still not knowing if she picked up Canadian citizenship at any point, I’m not sure how well attempting to come to Canada would go for her with her conviction. I wonder if somehow they haven’t thought of that?
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 430,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,311
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #183 on: August 22, 2019, 22:02:39 »
Still not knowing if she picked up Canadian citizenship at any point, I’m not sure how well attempting to come to Canada would go for her with her conviction ...
... or the father's for that matter.

Oh my, just caught this, too ...
"Father of accused ISIL member Jack Letts challenges Andrew Scheer to a debate on son's fate"

:pop:
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 229,167
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,359
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #184 on: August 22, 2019, 22:05:52 »
... or the father's for that matter.

Oh my, just caught this, too ...
"Father of accused ISIL member Jack Letts challenges Andrew Scheer to a debate on son's fate"

:pop:

I can hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left wingers who think he's "misunderstood" etc....

Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 301,701
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,078
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #185 on: August 22, 2019, 22:19:21 »
And they though the UK treated them badly for sending money to an ISIS member ...

Maybe if they came across a pile of bones and some rotting toys they might re-evaluate defending their sons choices.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 240,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,821
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #186 on: August 22, 2019, 22:22:16 »
I can hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left wingers who think he's "misunderstood" etc....

Your ears are excellent then. I've yet to see or hear anyone coming to his defense. I'm not saying they're out there; inevitably there will be a few- just please don't presnt it as if that is a broadly held or accepted view from what you would lump as 'the left'.

... or the father's for that matter.

Oh my, just caught this, too ...
"Father of accused ISIL member Jack Letts challenges Andrew Scheer to a debate on son's fate"

:pop:

The father's a Canadian citizen. Given his propensity for running to the media, had his passport been revoked I'm sure we'd have heard of it. Though maybe in a bit of hilarity he's been added to a no fly list? Not sure. But in any case it's quite likely he'd be able to come back to Canada. His mother, providing she's not a citizenship, has been convicted of an offense that should make her inadmissible to Canada.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 430,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,311
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #187 on: August 23, 2019, 13:56:49 »
Another nudge from our southern neighbours
Quote
U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo today pointedly called on Canada to repatriate Canadian citizens who joined ISIS and are now detained in Syria.
 
"We want every country to take their citizens back. That's step one. It's imperative that they do so," said Pompeo in an interview with CBC News Network's Power & Politics. "Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists.

 
"We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."
 
The top U.S. diplomat's remarks came one day after U.S. President Donald Trump threatened to release captured ISIS fighters into Europe.
 
"We're holding thousands of ISIS fighters right now. And Europe has to take them. And if Europe doesn't take them, I'll have no choice but to release them into the countries from which they came. Which is Germany and France and other places," said Trump.
 
Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale said Tuesday on Power & Politics that the federal government will ensure that the law is applied, but Canada is not legally obliged to facilitate the return of Jack Letts, a captured Canadian citizen accused of joining ISIS.
 
Goodale said that the Canadian government's first obligation is to national security and the safety of Canadians ...
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Brad Sallows

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 73,145
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,914
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #188 on: August 23, 2019, 14:08:45 »
This is getting interesting.

All of these people are going to be disposed of somehow, unless they are to remain exactly where they are, as they are.  There will be degrees of active and passive responsibility on the parts of the nations involved.  I foresee a lot of hand-washing.

The "Canada must accept responsibility for its citizens" crowd is a little bit quiet on this matter.  Maybe if the people were all transferred to Gitmo first it would move things along?
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 430,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,311
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #189 on: August 23, 2019, 14:33:37 »
… Maybe if the people were all transferred to Gitmo first it would move things along?
If the U.S. wants foreigners to end up back in their own foreign lands, this isn't likely, but it would sure make the debate more … brisk :)
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 142,365
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,693
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #190 on: August 23, 2019, 16:19:47 »
So Secretary Pompeo has stated:

"Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists. (...) We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."

Does this mean that, in the case of Jihady Jack, the US will pressure the UK into doing the right thing and take responsibility? After all, under his circumstances, it is difficult to pretend that he travelled to Syria as a "Canadian" citizen rather than as a British one. Similarly, how can you claim that Canada should take  back someone who never left (or even ever resided in) Canada. In fact, since he has never set foot in Canada for more than perhaps a quick family trip in his youth, The U.K., from which he left to jihad, not Canada, is the only country that could have stopped him from travelling to Syria.

Offline Journeyman

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 562,995
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,247
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #191 on: August 23, 2019, 16:35:00 »
So Secretary Pompeo has stated:

"Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists. (...) We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."

Does this mean that, in the case of Jihady Jack, the US will pressure the UK into doing the right thing and take responsibility? After all, under his circumstances, it is difficult to pretend that he travelled to Syria as a "Canadian" citizen rather than as a British one. Similarly, how can you claim that Canada should take  back someone who never left (or even ever resided in) Canada. In fact, since he has never set foot in Canada for more than perhaps a quick family trip in his youth, The U.K., from which he left to jihad, not Canada, is the only country that could have stopped him from travelling to Syria.
Pffft   mere facts and logic.  Not applicable to this regime at the best of times.   ~dismissive wave~
Don't vote?  Don't complain.   www.elections.ca

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 430,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,311
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #192 on: August 23, 2019, 18:43:01 »
... how can you claim that Canada should take  back someone who never left (or even ever resided in) Canada. In fact, since he has never set foot in Canada for more than perhaps a quick family trip in his youth, The U.K., from which he left to jihad, not Canada, is the only country that could have stopped him from travelling to Syria.
Stop making the defence's case, you!  ;D
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter

Offline tomahawk6

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 111,755
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,930
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #193 on: August 24, 2019, 17:09:16 »
UN refugee camp not much fun eh ?

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 923,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,211
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #194 on: August 24, 2019, 18:08:17 »
UN refugee camp not much fun eh ?

He's in a Kurdish prison. I hope he gets a nice long sentence so he can stay there for a few decades to think about whether he's a fan of "sharia" or not anymore.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 229,167
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,359
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #195 on: August 24, 2019, 22:01:15 »
He's in a Kurdish prison. I hope he gets a nice long sentence so he can stay there for a few decades to think about whether he's a fan of "sharia" or not anymore.

I bet he’s a catcher.....
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Ostrozac

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 32,840
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 724
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #196 on: August 24, 2019, 22:10:34 »
He's in a Kurdish prison. I hope he gets a nice long sentence so he can stay there for a few decades to think about whether he's a fan of "sharia" or not anymore.

He won’t be in a Kurdish prison for decades, that isn’t an option, which is part of the problem. The stated US policy is to reduce/eliminate support for Kurdish forces in Syria, and as a result they are thinning out, and things like running a prison system aren’t in the budget. A smooth handover of their prisons to the Assad Regime isn’t in the cards, Iraq also isn’t interested, and the YPG aren’t going to simply shoot all their prisoners. We are still grasping for a solution for prisoner handling, both in this and the next few insurgencies, and we are wallpapering over that fundamental gap in capability. Gitmo was flawed, but it was multinational and supported multiple theatres, and trying to retire it without a replacement capability was a mistake.

Offline tomahawk6

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 111,755
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,930
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #197 on: August 24, 2019, 22:10:55 »
At least one US citizen turned bedroom jihadist comfort woman has been denied entry back into the US. To use an old saying " made your bed now lay in it ."

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 301,701
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,078
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #198 on: August 25, 2019, 00:08:54 »
At least one US citizen turned bedroom jihadist comfort woman has been denied entry back into the US. To use an old saying " made your bed now lay in it ."


But

Quote
"Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists. (...) We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline milnews.ca

  • Info Curator, Baker & Food Slut
  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Relic
  • *
  • 430,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 22,311
    • MILNEWS.ca-Military News for Canadians
Re: Bringing 'Em Back? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)
« Reply #199 on: September 03, 2019, 14:08:38 »
At least one US citizen turned bedroom jihadist comfort woman has been denied entry back into the US. To use an old saying " made your bed now lay in it ."
... in addition to some others nabbed & charged after being returned by the Kurds:

Meanwhile, while they're waiting ...
Quote
In the desert camp in northeastern Syria where tens of thousands of Islamic State fighters’ wives and children have been trapped for months in miserable conditions with no prospects of leaving, ISIS sympathizers regularly torch the tents of women deemed infidels.

Fights between camp residents have brought smuggled guns into the open, and some women have attacked or threatened others with knives and hammers. Twice, in June and July, women stabbed the Kurdish guards who were escorting them, sending the camp into lockdown.

Virtually all women wear the niqab, the full-length black veil demanded by ISIS’s rigid interpretation of Islam — some because they still adhere to the group’s ideology, others because they fear running afoul of the true believers.

The Kurdish-run Al Hol camp is struggling to secure and serve nearly 70,000 displaced people, mainly women and children who fled there during the last battle to oust the Islamic State from eastern Syria. Filled with women stripped of hope and children who regularly die before receiving medical care, it has become what aid workers, researchers and American military officials warn is a disaster in the making ...
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

Tony Prudori
MILNEWS.ca - Twitter