Author Topic: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]  (Read 296424 times)

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Offline vivelespatates

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #425 on: December 03, 2013, 13:30:35 »
May want to check that out - while more education *may* help at the merit boards, I am not so sure a double major does.

Must depends of the trade and scolarity.

Me, for exemple, it would help as my recruiter told me that the fact that I have one in Administration and an other one in Human ressources would help me for my trade, which is HCA.



« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 13:33:55 by vivelespatates »

Offline MJP

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #426 on: December 03, 2013, 14:05:25 »
Must depends of the trade and scolarity.

Me, for exemple, it would help as my recruiter told me that the fact that I have one in Administration and an other one in Human ressources would help me for my trade, which is HCA.

I'll wait to be proven wrong but I think the recruiter is wrong.  For meriting for folks that are in the system an undergrad is an undergrad regardless of major or double major.  Now if you had further education like a masters or a PhD then it can give you a few more points dependant on how the trades scrit is developed.

Honestly the way the scrits are right now I would worry less about my undergrad and ensure that I am am bilingual as possible.  It seems that it is worth more than further education for the Capt to Maj jump.
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Offline vivelespatates

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #427 on: December 03, 2013, 14:33:15 »
I'll wait to be proven wrong but I think the recruiter is wrong.

I'll call my recruiter this week to have more informations. Maybe I understood wrong.

Offline DAA

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #428 on: December 03, 2013, 15:19:59 »
Hello everyone!
This is my first time posting on the forum. After thinking about joining the Canadian Forces for a while, I have decided that a career in the Canadian Forces will be a great opportunity for me to apply what I learned during university.
I will be graduating from university with a double-major in Political Science and International Relations in April 2014.
MY QUESTION: What will determine my pay increment as a DEO?
For instance, I have attended university for 5 years because of my double major. I have done extensive part-time research work with my professors. Also (and please, I'm not trying to brag or pomp myself up), I have received several high distinctions and awards during my undergraduate studies. Will this help me start at a higher pay increment?
I ask this for two reasons:
First, I remember that in the past, there were individuals with three-year BAs who started at the basic pay increment.
Second, I do have a decent amount of student loans. It would certainly help to know what my pay increment would be (assuming that the CF hopefully accepts me) in order to plan my finances a little ahead.
Thank you very much!

The fact that your entry plan is DEO automatically determines your Pay Group, which will be 2Lt - Basic, Category D.  It's all the same.  The only thing that will increase your pay level is prior military service.

Also, your academic stream may not qualify you to apply for Log O nor possibly MPO but I would have to take a closer look just to be sure.

As previously mentioned an undergrad degree is an undergrad degree, there all treated relatively he same.  You would think that a post-grad degree would hold more weight but sometimes it doesn't.

Edit - so I rechecked today and your Undergrad Degree (BS) major Poli Sci/International Relations does not qualify you for either Log or MPO.  It does for Pilot but not the other two.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 09:10:20 by DAA »
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Offline reboog

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #429 on: December 10, 2013, 15:22:04 »

MY QUESTION: What will determine my pay increment as a DEO?

For instance, I have attended university for 5 years because of my double major. I have done extensive part-time research work with my professors. Also (and please, I'm not trying to brag or pomp myself up), I have received several high distinctions and awards during my undergraduate studies. Will this help me start at a higher pay increment?


If you have a university degree, you enter in as DEO and will get paid at the 2LT basic rate the moment your COS date happens. At least you don't get the OCdt rate.

Reference: It's what happened to me and the vast majority of people on my basic course.

Offline VigilamusProTe

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #430 on: December 11, 2013, 15:02:25 »
Cool, thanks for all your replies!

I'm patiently waiting for the next step in my application process. ;D
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Offline bouncer2004

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #431 on: December 16, 2013, 15:30:45 »
Be advised that MPO has an extra step in selection, the MPOAC.

DEO pay rate depends what Ottawa offers you. Case in point: A few years ago two friends of mine, 1 a MSc in Physics and 1 BA double major French and Math.  The two were 7 months apart in joining as an ACSO.  The guy with the MSc was paid at 2Lt DEO Basic while the double major started at DEO IPC 3.  There are no redress available as Ottawa D MIL C are the ones who give you the initial offer.  Don't give your hopes up.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #432 on: January 25, 2014, 14:13:20 »
There are no redress available as Ottawa D MIL C are the ones who give you the initial offer. 

I wouldn't say that.  D Mil C is not infallible and they have made mistakes in the past on this front.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline DAA

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #433 on: January 25, 2014, 14:18:48 »
I wouldn't say that.  D Mil C is not infallible and they have made mistakes in the past on this front.

Actually, D Mil C are not the ones who make the offer, unless it's a component transfer.  The offer comes from CFRG and the majority of the time, especially when it comes to DEO pay entitlements, the information is not entirely accurate.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #434 on: January 27, 2014, 05:19:20 »
Actually, D Mil C are not the ones who make the offer, unless it's a component transfer.  The offer comes from CFRG and the majority of the time, especially when it comes to DEO pay entitlements, the information is not entirely accurate.

True enough although they do so in consultation with D Mil C (as far as I know).  In other words, mutltiple opportunities to screw it up!   ;D
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline AndrewEME

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #435 on: March 21, 2015, 15:19:43 »
Hello my name is Andrew, and I am a prospective deo cadet. I have my enrolment ceremony in 5 days. During the job offer call, an account manager with the rank leading seaman called me "sir" after I accepted the job offer. Does this mean I am already a superior to NCM's? Am I a civilian until I take the oath? How will I be addressed by the NCM's during my training at CFLRS.? How should I address the NCM's? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #436 on: March 21, 2015, 15:26:45 »
He was being polite. You'll be taught how to address all ranks properly, its part of your recruit training. You do not need to show up at CFLRS with this knowledge. When in doubt, addressing an NCM by his/her rank is appropriate.

Online mariomike

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #437 on: March 21, 2015, 15:28:28 »
How will I be addressed by the NCM's during my training at CFLRS.? How should I address the NCM's?

Proper protocol for Officer Cadets 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,29679.0/nowap.html

Proper way to address a WO, MWO, CWO or Officer 
http://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,57227..0.html

Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,812.0/nowap.html
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 15:31:13 by mariomike »

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #438 on: March 21, 2015, 15:39:43 »
I'll break it down -

As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you.  This is often misunderstood even among serving members.  You are a civilian up to the point you sign paperwork confirming your Terms Of Service (IE, when you agree to X many years of service) - then you are likely on Leave Without Pay until the start of your course in St. Jean.  Many will feel you don't deserve the "sir" until after you are finished all of your qualification training, but it varies.

Address NCMs by their rank - IE MCpl Jones, Warrant Adams, etc.  When in doubt it is never wrong to address someone by their rank, and they will correct you on their proper title (if appropriate).  Address all superior officers as "sir".  Your instructors will likely refer to you as "Mr", or other less impressive titles.  I strongly recommend not trying to insist they do anything else (but hey, you are welcome to give it a try!).

As a small (but in my opinion a very important) point - it's a bad habit to look at the NCM/Officer relationship as you being "superior" - Professionalism will usually have them calling you "sir", but that says very little about how much they are willing to support you and your goals.  Far better to look at it as you have a job to do, as does everyone else you work with - no one is particularly "better" then the other, only have specialized jobs and responsibilities.  Food for thought.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 16:04:32 by Ayrsayle »
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Online Ostrozac

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #439 on: March 21, 2015, 16:23:47 »
I'll break it down -

As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you. 

Aren't DEO enrolees commisioned as Second Lieutenants on enrolment? And attend BMOQ with that rank?

Offline AndrewEME

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #440 on: March 21, 2015, 16:39:38 »
I'll break it down -

As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you. 

As a small (but in my opinion a very important) point - it's a bad habit to look at the NCM/Officer relationship as you being "superior" - Professionalism will usually have them calling you "sir", but that says very little about how much they are willing to support you and your goals.  Far better to look at it as you have a job to do, as does everyone else you work with - no one is particularly "better" then the other, only have specialized jobs and responsibilities.  Food for thought.

I think you misunderstood my tone or what I have said. I ask if I was "a superior," not "superior to" an NCM. You sounded overly critical, so I wanted to explain myself a bit better to make sense to you. I do understand that NCM's could potentially have lots of experience, and I certainly respect them.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #441 on: March 21, 2015, 17:27:33 »
Aren't DEO enrolees commisioned as Second Lieutenants on enrolment? And attend BMOQ with that rank?

Ostrozac: Not unless something radical has changed in the last 5 years.  You will be paid as a 2Lt for the duration of BMOQ (and later, should you not pass your initial course), and this will retroactively be counted toward your "time in rank" assuming you become qualified BMOQ.  You'll most certainly be an OCdt until completion of BMOQ, upon which you will be given a commissioning scroll (commissioned) and assume the duties and responsibilities of a commissioned officer.  I am not as familiar with the PRes system, and have seen some differing practices from that side of the house.

Hyung7423: You are not "a superior" in any shape or form.  PuckChaser was correct in that the person addressing you as "sir" was simply being polite (in deference for what you will eventually become).  An OCdt does not have the formal authority (given by the queen, expressed in being commissioned) to command anyone.  It was not my intention to sound critical, but simply make you aware of the realities of being an officer (from my point of view).  If you already believe what I've said, carry on!  From my (albeit limited) experience, the officers that have the hardest time being successful in their jobs are the ones who feel themselves to be "superior" to those they lead.
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline AndrewEME

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #442 on: March 21, 2015, 17:46:25 »
Just one more question : as an EME DEO, I will be attending the Infantry school twice (one for common army phase and the other for professional training). Is the common army phase what I've read as IODP 1.1?

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #443 on: March 21, 2015, 17:57:53 »
Common Army Phase is referred to by a number of names: CAP, Phase 2, etc.   IODP 1.1 is the Infantry Officer Development Programme 1.1 (Dismounted Platoon Commander) and would be considered the "professional development" period for Infantry officers (at least that is the common usage here on the site).
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline AndrewEME

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #444 on: March 21, 2015, 18:00:37 »
Thank you for the answers. I hope to become a great military engineer.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #445 on: March 21, 2015, 18:35:38 »
Good Luck!
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Pusser

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #446 on: March 30, 2015, 18:23:54 »

As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you.  This is often misunderstood even among serving members....

 Many will feel you don't deserve the "sir" until after you are finished all of your qualification training, but it varies.

Umm.  No.

The National Defence Act clearly places officer/naval cadets superior to all NCM ranks in the rank scale (although woe betide the young officer/naval cadet who tries to pull rank on the RSM or Coxswain  ;D).  Officer/naval cadets are still officers.  Strictly speaking, they are "subordinate officers" (as opposed to junior, senior or flag/general officers), but officers nonetheless.  As they are not commissioned (which does not mean they are "non-commisioned members" or "non-commisioned officers"), they are not normally saluted (although it's on wrong to salute them), but they are properly addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am."
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Ayrsayle

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #447 on: March 31, 2015, 13:29:04 »
Couldn't find it in the NDA (save for it shall be enforced along established military tradition, etc) so I decided to start digging.  Found it in the QR&O's.

(In short, if you don't want to read, my statement above was completely wrong and here is why.  Though until the individual signs his VIE, he's technically still a civilian and "sir" is being polite)

QR&O's section 3.01 - RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK

(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides:

I

OFFICERS

    General
    Lieutenant-General
    Major-General
    Brigadier-General
    Colonel
    Lieutenant-Colonel
    Major
    Captain
    Lieutenant
    Second Lieutenant
    Officer Cadet

II

NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

    Chief Warrant Officer
    Master Warrant Officer
    Warrant Officer
    Sergeant
    Corporal
    Private

Which in turn in reinforced by:

3.09 - ORDER OF SENIORITY

(1) An officer takes seniority over all non-commissioned members.

and

3.20 - COMMAND GENERALLY

In cases not otherwise provided for in QR&O, command shall be exercised by:

    the senior officer present;
    in the absence of an officer, the senior non-commissioned member present; or
    any other officer or non-commissioned member, where specifically authorized by the Chief of the Defence Staff, an officer commanding a command or formation or a commanding officer.

Absolutely no mention of commissioning as the grounds for exercising authority/command.  I had been instructed in error previously and now have the correct answer.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 13:31:57 by Ayrsayle »
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Pusser

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #448 on: April 02, 2015, 19:05:37 »
Couldn't find it in the NDA

The table of ranks is in the Schedule (i.e. at the end)
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Offline AndrewEME

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Re: Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]
« Reply #449 on: April 04, 2015, 05:36:34 »
Queen's Regulations and Orders (QR&Os)
Volume I - Chapter 3 Rank, Seniority, Command and Precedence
Section 1 – Rank and Seniority[/b]
3.01 - RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK
(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides:

I

OFFICERS

General
Lieutenant-General
Major-General
Brigadier-General
Colonel
Lieutenant-Colonel
Major
Captain
Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Officer Cadet

II

NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

Chief Warrant Officer
Master Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer
Sergeant
Corporal
Private

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member who, on or after the date this article comes into force (18 September 1986), holds a rank in the Canadian Forces set out in paragraph (1) and who, in accordance with orders and instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff wears a naval uniform, shall use and be referred to by the designation of rank set out in Column II of the Schedule to the National Defence Act having the same serial number as that of his rank in paragraph (1), and reference in this paragraph to the rank held by an officer or non-commissioned member includes any rank to which the member may be promoted, reduced or reverted from time to time.

(3) Except in accordance with paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member shall, after the coming into force of this article, use or be referred to by a designation of rank other than as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act.

(4) The ranks set out in paragraph (1) shall be used in all official communications within the Canadian Forces, except with respect to officers and non-commissioned members referred to in paragraph (2) for whom the rank designations set out in Column II of the Schedule to the National Defence Act shall be used

National Defence Act (R.S.C., 1985, c.N-5)

Powers of Command

Marginal note:Authority of officers and non-commissioned members

19. The authority and powers of command of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as prescribed in regulations. <-- schedule
R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 19;R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 60.

Schedule (National Defence Act, R.S.C., 1985)
(Section 21)
LINK
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-149.html#h-228
SCHEDULE TABLE
Column IColumn IIColumn IIIColumn IV
OFFICER
1.GeneralAdmiralGeneralAir Chief Marshal
2.Lieutenant-GeneralVice-AdmiralLieutenant-GeneralAir Marshal
3.Major-GeneralRear-AdmiralMajor-GeneralAir Vice-Marshal
4.Brigadier-GeneralCommodoreBrigadierAir Commodore
5.ColonelCaptainColonelGroup Captain
6.Lieutenent-ColonelCommanderLieutenant-ColonelWing Commander
7.MajorLieutenant-CommanderMajorSquadron Leader
8.CaptainLieutenantCaptainFlight Lieutenant
9.LieutenantSub-Lieutenant Commissioned OfficerLieutenantFlying Officer
10.Second LieutenantActing Sub-Lieutenant2nd LieutenantPilot Officer
11.Officer CadetMidshipman
Naval Cadet
Provisional 2nd Lieutenant
Officer Cadet
Officer Cadet
Non-commissioned Members
12.Chief Warrant
Officer
Chief Petty Officer, 1st ClassWarrant Officer
Class 1
Warrant Officer,
Class 1
13.Master Warrant
Officer
Chief Petty Officer, 2nd ClassWarrant Officer
Class 2
Warrant Officer,
Class 2
14.Warrant OfficerPetty Officer,
1st Class
Squadron-Quarter-
master-Sergeant,

Battery-Quarter-
master-Sergeant,

Company-Quarter-
master-Sergeant,

Staff Sergeant
Flight Sergeant
15.SergeantPetty Officer,
2nd Class
SergeantSergeant
16.CorporalLeading SeamanCorporal
Bombardier
Corporal
17.PrivateAble Seaman
Ordinary Seaman
Trooper
Gunner Sapper
Signalman
Private
Guardsman
Fusilier
Rifleman
Craftsman

I combined everything for you guys :) And I am officially an officer cadet now. On leave until June 1st BMOQ.  :salute: :cdn: