Author Topic: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0  (Read 49015 times)

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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2018, 21:11:27 »
When are we going to ban drinking and driving so no more drinking and driving related deaths occur? Oh wait... :facepalm:

Maybe before the politicians start talking about banning handguns, they should determine how someone with a history of mental illness and thus unable to legally buy a firearm, let alone a handgun, was able to obtain one.

Also, if more money was spent on treating people with mental illness, its possible we wouldn't have people going on shooting rampages.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2018, 22:42:38 »
"The vote comes at a time when gun violence has been overwhelming in Toronto with numerous incidents being reported this year. There were 39 people who fell victim to gun violence in Toronto during the month of July alone. "

www.narcity.com/news/toronto-city-council-just-voted-to-ban-the-sale-of-handguns-and-am
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« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 09:36:20 by ModlrMike »
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2018, 09:23:32 »
It's easier to scapegoat law abiding citizens than it is to deal with an issue like gangs, particularly when the gang issue is mixed up in race and class issues as well.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2018, 09:42:33 »
I'd really like to meet Ralph Goodale in person and pick his brain.

2.1 million or 5.6% of Canadians own 10-20 million guns.

I don't think the liberals fart without paying a lot of money to advisors and spin doctors to calculate how it will effect voting, polls and such. 

Ralph and friends are going to have to try pretty hard to spin a gun ban on legally owned guns based on an ******* using an illegal gun to shoot people. 

Elections coming up, go hard and use the shooting to enamor anti-gun types or kick the can down the road as to not piss off the voters on the fence.

4500 firearm and ammo businesses and 1000 restricted handguns and rifles are bought ever week, or a restricted firearm bought every 6 hours. And that doesn't include all the restricted guns that are privately sold every day. Little political minefield for Justin to dance in.
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Offline Remius

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2018, 09:57:11 »
I'd really like to meet Ralph Goodale in person and pick his brain.

2.1 million or 5.6% of Canadians own 10-20 million guns.

I don't think the liberals fart without paying a lot of money to advisors and spin doctors to calculate how it will effect voting, polls and such. 

Ralph and friends are going to have to try pretty hard to spin a gun ban on legally owned guns based on an ******* using an illegal gun to shoot people. 

Elections coming up, go hard and use the shooting to enamor anti-gun types or kick the can down the road as to not piss off the voters on the fence.

4500 firearm and ammo businesses and 1000 restricted handguns and rifles are bought ever week, or a restricted firearm bought every 6 hours. And that doesn't include all the restricted guns that are privately sold every day. Little political minefield for Justin to dance in.

Toronto is a vote rich area.  Torontonians want to see something done.  Easy win for the liberals to just ban handguns and claim they did something.  Most handgun advocates don't vote liberal for the most part so its hardly a mine field. 
Optio

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2018, 10:01:27 »
There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.

I'd really like to meet Ralph Goodale in person and pick his brain.

2.1 million or 5.6% of Canadians own 10-20 million guns.

I don't think the liberals fart without paying a lot of money to advisors and spin doctors to calculate how it will effect voting, polls and such. 

Ralph and friends are going to have to try pretty hard to spin a gun ban on legally owned guns based on an ******* using an illegal gun to shoot people. 

Elections coming up, go hard and use the shooting to enamor anti-gun types or kick the can down the road as to not piss off the voters on the fence.

4500 firearm and ammo businesses and 1000 restricted handguns and rifles are bought ever week, or a restricted firearm bought every 6 hours. And that doesn't include all the restricted guns that are privately sold every day. Little political minefield for Justin to dance in.

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2018, 10:11:11 »
There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.


We've had this discussion. Go check the old thread.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2018, 10:18:33 »
There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.

Need is rarely an approved reason to gain the privilege of private firearms ownership in Canada.  Very few concealed carry permits are issued and one must have very well defined, apparent and documented reasons.  For the most part its purely a recreational want.

This is the crux of firearms ownership in Canada.  We have no legislated right to own firearms if we wish.  So "need" or "should" cant really enter the discussion no matter how much we wish they could.

The vast majority of handgun owners are sports shooter or target shooters.  And sadly these privately handgun owners can be made criminals with a pen and a couple of votes, and thousands of dollars invested will be for not.

And it will not stop at handguns, this will continue on until we are down to levers, bolts and slides.

Unfortunately we law abiding firearms are forced to pay the consequences for criminals like this fellow in Toronto.
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Offline Remius

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2018, 10:27:56 »
There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.

There is a whole slew of reasons.

Some like to compete.  Some like to hone their skills on their own (most handgun owners I know are military, ex military or LEO). Some want something cool to do that isn't knitting or bowling.

One could ask why anyone needs to learn a martial art.  Plenty of reasons there too and no less valid. 
Optio

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2018, 10:33:20 »
Thanks for your points HT and Remius.


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Offline Colin P

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2018, 10:54:36 »
Yes, just a few months ago the Liberals were saying "We aren't going after anyone guns"....

which is why no experienced gun owner trusts the Liberals.

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2018, 11:08:32 »
Yes, just a few months ago the Liberals were saying "We aren't going after anyone guns"....

which is why no experienced gun owner trusts the Liberals.

Incorrect.  I know many experienced gun owners who trust the Liberals AND the Conservatives. Depends on whether they lie or not...

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2018, 12:05:21 »
There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.

I think that's a fair question to ask RocketRichard. I'll try not to be soap-boxy (but I'll fail!) 

It's hard to quantify a need because really it's a want and at the end of the day I think something like this boils down to what the public majority wants, what the politicians think will get them the most votes and money. It's not about saving lives, other wise we wouldn't sell cigarettes or alcohol.

I find smoking insane. People poison their own bodies, put a drain on health care and poison non-smokers with second hand smoke. How on earth do we still sell that poison? Enough people still want it and money in the business.

Alcohol? How many injuries and deaths are caused by alcohol being a factor. Domestic abuse, assaults, sexual assault. It's a substance we put in our body and just a little too much leads to people being hurt or worse. (How many of us have driven home from the mess when we probably shouldn't have?).
But the lives having no alcohol available would save isn't a big enough trade off for the monetary value alcohol brings in/jobs it creates and just how many people want it.

If we're pretending the argument is we need to ban handguns to save lives then sure saving lives is important but there's a number of areas ahead of handguns that cause more deaths so as far as I'm concerned start there.


We could (should) triple the capability of our borders. I've been trained on a pretty awesome XRay machine that could pick up weapons being carried by people inside of vehicles as they drove through the portal. You could see different metal (and liquid) densities. Let's set those up at the borders, scan everyone and everything. Instead of giving India 750 million dollars put that towards our own borders. We're such a materialistic society. I think I read CBSA only searched 3% of incoming cargo ships? That's crazy. Lets give them more money and better tools. They won't just catch guns but illegal alcohol, drugs AND humans too (whether they're illegal immigrants or especially sex trade slaves)

Domestically sourced guns? Get rid of the revolving door system we have. Double or triple the punishment for thieves and gun sellers. Families and communities can know it off with the "he's a good boy" bullshit and stop making excuses for people.




I hate bringing up Uhaul trucks, and no disrespect intended to the families of the deceased, but Faisal Hussain killed 2 people and injured 13 with a handgun. That's alot. Alek Minassian killed 10 people and injured 13 with a van attack, that's alot more.

A $400 handgun costs over $2000 on the blackmarket (ammo is very expensive too). Blackmarket isn't like a Walmart and that easy to access. From what I understand of the 2006 Toronto 18 planned terrorist attack the members tried but failed to source illegal guns on the black market.
26 foot UHaul truck is $39.95 to rent and you don't require a special license (minus Quebec).

No, we can't ban trucks but maybe looking at what we can ban is less effective than looking at how we can forecast and intervene before these attacks happen.   



Why should I be allowed handguns? Stop worrying about me and go after people who are "known to police", access violent radical websites, associate with criminals and terrorist groups or are simply criminals themselves. (Generally speaking, I know you're not targeting me personally RR).




« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 12:09:15 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Jed

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2018, 12:45:24 »
I think that's a fair question to ask RocketRichard. I'll try not to be soap-boxy (but I'll fail!) 

It's hard to quantify a need because really it's a want and at the end of the day I think something like this boils down to what the public majority wants, what the politicians think will get them the most votes and money. It's not about saving lives, other wise we wouldn't sell cigarettes or alcohol.

I find smoking insane. People poison their own bodies, put a drain on health care and poison non-smokers with second hand smoke. How on earth do we still sell that poison? Enough people still want it and money in the business.

Alcohol? How many injuries and deaths are caused by alcohol being a factor. Domestic abuse, assaults, sexual assault. It's a substance we put in our body and just a little too much leads to people being hurt or worse. (How many of us have driven home from the mess when we probably shouldn't have?).
But the lives having no alcohol available would save isn't a big enough trade off for the monetary value alcohol brings in/jobs it creates and just how many people want it.

If we're pretending the argument is we need to ban handguns to save lives then sure saving lives is important but there's a number of areas ahead of handguns that cause more deaths so as far as I'm concerned start there.


We could (should) triple the capability of our borders. I've been trained on a pretty awesome XRay machine that could pick up weapons being carried by people inside of vehicles as they drove through the portal. You could see different metal (and liquid) densities. Let's set those up at the borders, scan everyone and everything. Instead of giving India 750 million dollars put that towards our own borders. We're such a materialistic society. I think I read CBSA only searched 3% of incoming cargo ships? That's crazy. Lets give them more money and better tools. They won't just catch guns but illegal alcohol, drugs AND humans too (whether they're illegal immigrants or especially sex trade slaves)

Domestically sourced guns? Get rid of the revolving door system we have. Double or triple the punishment for thieves and gun sellers. Families and communities can know it off with the "he's a good boy" bullshit and stop making excuses for people.




I hate bringing up Uhaul trucks, and no disrespect intended to the families of the deceased, but Faisal Hussain killed 2 people and injured 13 with a handgun. That's alot. Alek Minassian killed 10 people and injured 13 with a van attack, that's alot more.

A $400 handgun costs over $2000 on the blackmarket (ammo is very expensive too). Blackmarket isn't like a Walmart and that easy to access. From what I understand of the 2006 Toronto 18 planned terrorist attack the members tried but failed to source illegal guns on the black market.
26 foot UHaul truck is $39.95 to rent and you don't require a special license (minus Quebec).

No, we can't ban trucks but maybe looking at what we can ban is less effective than looking at how we can forecast and intervene before these attacks happen.   



Why should I be allowed handguns? Stop worrying about me and go after people who are "known to police", access violent radical websites, associate with criminals and terrorist groups or are simply criminals themselves. (Generally speaking, I know you're not targeting me personally RR).
Great reply, worthy of posting to papers in the an editorial. As if that would even happen given the Mainstream Media’s bias on the storyline.
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Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2018, 13:20:08 »
I think that's a fair question to ask RocketRichard. I'll try not to be soap-boxy (but I'll fail!) 

It's hard to quantify a need because really it's a want and at the end of the day I think something like this boils down to what the public majority wants, what the politicians think will get them the most votes and money. It's not about saving lives, other wise we wouldn't sell cigarettes or alcohol.

I find smoking insane. People poison their own bodies, put a drain on health care and poison non-smokers with second hand smoke. How on earth do we still sell that poison? Enough people still want it and money in the business.

Alcohol? How many injuries and deaths are caused by alcohol being a factor. Domestic abuse, assaults, sexual assault. It's a substance we put in our body and just a little too much leads to people being hurt or worse. (How many of us have driven home from the mess when we probably shouldn't have?).
But the lives having no alcohol available would save isn't a big enough trade off for the monetary value alcohol brings in/jobs it creates and just how many people want it.

If we're pretending the argument is we need to ban handguns to save lives then sure saving lives is important but there's a number of areas ahead of handguns that cause more deaths so as far as I'm concerned start there.


We could (should) triple the capability of our borders. I've been trained on a pretty awesome XRay machine that could pick up weapons being carried by people inside of vehicles as they drove through the portal. You could see different metal (and liquid) densities. Let's set those up at the borders, scan everyone and everything. Instead of giving India 750 million dollars put that towards our own borders. We're such a materialistic society. I think I read CBSA only searched 3% of incoming cargo ships? That's crazy. Lets give them more money and better tools. They won't just catch guns but illegal alcohol, drugs AND humans too (whether they're illegal immigrants or especially sex trade slaves)

Domestically sourced guns? Get rid of the revolving door system we have. Double or triple the punishment for thieves and gun sellers. Families and communities can know it off with the "he's a good boy" bullshit and stop making excuses for people.




I hate bringing up Uhaul trucks, and no disrespect intended to the families of the deceased, but Faisal Hussain killed 2 people and injured 13 with a handgun. That's alot. Alek Minassian killed 10 people and injured 13 with a van attack, that's alot more.

A $400 handgun costs over $2000 on the blackmarket (ammo is very expensive too). Blackmarket isn't like a Walmart and that easy to access. From what I understand of the 2006 Toronto 18 planned terrorist attack the members tried but failed to source illegal guns on the black market.
26 foot UHaul truck is $39.95 to rent and you don't require a special license (minus Quebec).

No, we can't ban trucks but maybe looking at what we can ban is less effective than looking at how we can forecast and intervene before these attacks happen.   



Why should I be allowed handguns? Stop worrying about me and go after people who are "known to police", access violent radical websites, associate with criminals and terrorist groups or are simply criminals themselves. (Generally speaking, I know you're not targeting me personally RR).
Whoa. That was more of a response than expected. Really appreciate it J. You almost have me convinced;) I will use your points when I get into a debate with my friends that are very ‘left wing’. Maybe I will even buy a hand gun, nah, too much of a PIA. Have a great day.


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Offline Colin P

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2018, 14:12:40 »
Wasn't just a few months ago we were told the Liberals aren't coming for your guns.......

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2018, 14:17:04 »
Then they are fools who don't bother studying history. The Liberals are always one crisis away from banning firearms, generally by taking a few slices at a time.

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2018, 14:39:23 »
Then they are fools who don't bother studying history. The Liberals are always one crisis away from banning firearms, generally by taking a few slices at a time.
Thank you for contributing to the discussion with your blanket statements about gun owners and their political leanings and that those who trust Liberals and conservatives are fools.


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Offline Furniture

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2018, 16:21:00 »
Wasn't just a few months ago we were told the Liberals aren't coming for your guns.......

They don't want all of your guns, just the "scary" ones... they'll come back for the rest later. ;)


Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2018, 17:02:21 »

Non-restricted
Restricted
Prohibited


Ubless you're in Oshawa Ontario then they're all illegal  ;D
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Offline Colin P

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2018, 17:08:25 »
Thank you for contributing to the discussion with your blanket statements about gun owners and their political leanings and that those who trust Liberals and conservatives are fools.


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I am 12(5) so I am all to painfully aware of Liberals and their "gifts". My comment is directed to gun owners who naively think the Liberals won't come after them, because they don't own scary guns.

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2018, 17:51:07 »
CTV is now reporting the gun used was illegal to start with, and smuggled from the US.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/toronto-shooter-s-gun-was-illegal-originally-from-u-s-source-1.4027129

Quote
The gun used to shoot 15 people on a busy Toronto street was likely obtained from a “gang-related source,” according to a person familiar with the case.

CP24 safety specialist Cam Woolley says a police source has told him the semi-automatic handgun used in the shooting is illegal in Canada and was originally from the United States. American authorities are helping track the gun’s exact origin.

Hussain opened fire on Danforth Avenue in Toronto Sunday night, killing two people and wounding 13 others.

CTV News has further learned that ammunition and large-capacity magazines were found by police officers searching the apartment Faisal Hussain shared with his parents. Police are also looking into the connection between Hussain’s brother, who is currently in a coma, and a 2017 seizure of more than 30 guns in Pickering, Ont.

So how many laws were broken here? Prohibited weapon, prohibited device, carried concealed, murder, attempted murder, weapons trafficking... a handgun ban stops none of them.

Offline my72jeep

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2018, 19:03:34 »
CTV is now reporting the gun used was illegal to start with, and smuggled from the US.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/toronto-shooter-s-gun-was-illegal-originally-from-u-s-source-1.4027129

So how many laws were broken here? Prohibited weapon, prohibited device, carried concealed, murder, attempted murder, weapons trafficking... a handgun ban stops none of them.
But now your making sense, stop that it’s anti Canadian
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2018, 13:18:56 »
Mentally ill ::)

He was using illegal hi capacity magazines. I think we should lower the magazine limit from 10 to 5 just to be safer.
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