Poll

How much use do you make of a personal (non-government provided) cellular device to exercise C2 within your unit?

I don't.  My leadership and/or soldiers can wait for me to come in to the unit on paid time.
1 (4.3%)
A few texts, e-mails and/or calls a month.
1 (4.3%)
A few texts, e-mails and/or calls a week.
4 (17.4%)
A few texts, e-mails and/or calls a day.
6 (26.1%)
I'm in almost constant daily contact with my leadership and/or soldiers.
11 (47.8%)

Total Members Voted: 23

Voting closed: May 13, 2018, 01:30:26

Author Topic: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS  (Read 13742 times)

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Offline Lumber

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2018, 18:00:01 »
I've never heard of that. What would it be under?

Do you really want to be a lower deck lawyer?
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2018, 18:18:56 »
Do you really want to be a lower deck lawyer?

I thought you were serious.  I have a soldier without a phone, as far as I'm aware, and I was curious if there was an actual rule about providing contact info if you have it.
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2018, 18:25:18 »
Just don't answer the phone/e-mail outside hours where you're signed in?

You're not under any obligation to do so.

Offline Loch Sloy!

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2018, 18:49:39 »
Quote
Just don't answer the phone/e-mail outside hours where you're signed in?

You're not under any obligation to do so.

Sure and admin in virtually every reserve unit in Canada would basically grind to a halt...
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Offline Haggis

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2018, 19:01:37 »
I thought you were serious.  I have a soldier without a phone, as far as I'm aware, and I was curious if there was an actual rule about providing contact info if you have it.

If a member doesn't have a phone (and there are a few) his only means of contact would be a personal visit.  He has to provide an address for a number of valid reasons.
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2018, 22:11:56 »
Instead of being a d*ck and pretend you don't have a phone (I highly doubt that some people have such a boring life and no interractions outside of work that they don't have a phone or other means of instant communication such as Skype, FaceTime or IM protocols), why not be upfront with your CoC and let them know you would appreciate not being contacted on your time off?  Of course, sometimes there will be the inevitable recalls but generally speaking, a CoC should not constantly contact you after-hours and expect an immediate response.

As far as the reserve question goes, while technically speaking, you could claim a half days of work to answer a text message from your CoC, I would suggest you discuss with your immediate supervisor about what arrangements could be made to get fairly compensated for your work without charging 1/2 day for every 30 seconds text reply or else, if you feel so strongly, just don't action them until you stsrt clocking time at the unit...

I also find, annecdotely, that those that will exploit the system and find every loophole possible to make life more difficult for their CoC (ie: you can't force me to get a phone or tell you my phone number) are generally the first ones to say that if you don't serve exclusively for the love of their Country, else you're a traitor and are the first ones to demand respect from society "because they serve".

Rant off.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2018, 22:14:50 »
Sure and admin in virtually every reserve unit in Canada would basically grind to a halt...

No, it wouldn't.

People would just have to learn to plan and prioritize, and make use of the time and resources they have available.

E-mail, cell phones, and text messaging are effectively killing any sort of planning.

There's a time and a place for it... letting your chain of command know that you're not going to be able to make it in for a parade night? Sure. Letting your troops know there's a tasking or tour available on short notice? Sure.

Almost literally everything else, can wait till a parade night.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 22:18:53 by Not a Sig Op »

Offline dapaterson

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2018, 22:21:00 »

E-mail, cell phones, and text messaging are effectively killing any sort of planning.


This, plus ten thousand.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2018, 22:29:50 »
Instead of being a d*ck and pretend you don't have a phone (I highly doubt that some people have such a boring life and no interractions outside of work that they don't have a phone or other means of instant communication such as Skype, FaceTime or IM protocols), why not be upfront with your CoC and let them know you would appreciate not being contacted on your time off?  Of course, sometimes there will be the inevitable recalls but generally speaking, a CoC should not constantly contact you after-hours and expect an immediate response.

As far as the reserve question goes, while technically speaking, you could claim a half days of work to answer a text message from your CoC, I would suggest you discuss with your immediate supervisor about what arrangements could be made to get fairly compensated for your work without charging 1/2 day for every 30 seconds text reply or else, if you feel so strongly, just don't action them until you stsrt clocking time at the unit...

I also find, annecdotely, that those that will exploit the system and find every loophole possible to make life more difficult for their CoC (ie: you can't force me to get a phone or tell you my phone number) are generally the first ones to say that if you don't serve exclusively for the love of their Country, else you're a traitor and are the first ones to demand respect from society "because they serve".

Rant off.

I have sent 3 emails like this in the past 6 months or so, to no avail. If you're a CO? You get dozens per day, so my whining is likely the least of his worries:

"CO,

Just a heads up that ‘emails per minute’ is increasing again beyond comfortable rates of fire, at my end anyways.

I know that it’s all done in an authentic effort to keep people informed and to lean forward with planning as much as possible but, as always, there’s a fine line between important communications and SPAM.

And, ironically, I’ve just added to the pile with this email 

Thanks for your consideration.

Daftandbarmy"
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2018, 22:55:36 »
I have sent 3 emails like this in the past 6 months or so, to no avail. If you're a CO? You get dozens per day, so my whining is likely the least of his worries:

"CO,

Just a heads up that ‘emails per minute’ is increasing again beyond comfortable rates of fire, at my end anyways.

I know that it’s all done in an authentic effort to keep people informed and to lean forward with planning as much as possible but, as always, there’s a fine line between important communications and SPAM.

And, ironically, I’ve just added to the pile with this email 

Thanks for your consideration.

Daftandbarmy"

I did say CoC, not CO.  If it is indeed an issue, it will be dealt with.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2018, 23:33:50 »
I've never heard of that. What would it be under?
"Seek out and accept responsibility" :dunno:

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2018, 01:40:48 »
I've never heard of that. What would it be under?
Do you really want to be a lower deck lawyer?

I'd like to see the reference.
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2018, 01:43:59 »
Being the RegF officer in the RSS position, I can tell you it's a constant internal struggle to decide whether to send an email to a members' civilian or military email.

I'm used to quick responses and quick turn arounds in the RegF, and I've really had reign myself in to learn to decide what is and isn't time sensitive, and stop and think how/when to send emails out to the Class-As.

For routine business, if it can wait two or three days until the department heads and divisional officers are in, I will send it to their military emails, even if it means I can't finish a task right away (which is hard for me, as I'm the type that likes to get a job done right away). If it can't wait 2-3 days, then I will send it to their civilian emails. When it comes to my command team (CO, XO, Coxn), my emails almost always go to both their civilian and military emails, as they want to be informed immediately of everything going on.

That being said, I do agree that we really way too heavily on civilian cellphones and email. Sure, senior staff have sort of signed-on to be plugged into the business and can be expected to be more available, but what about our junior sailors and soldiers?

It may seem unusual to most, but there really are soldiers and sailors that cannot afford a good cellphone plan. This isn't the regular force, so they don't have a guaranteed income. We have sailors who's only source of income is their Class-A work and don't have reliable data plans, yet we still chomp on these people to respond quickly to emails from their chains of command, and I just don't think that's fair.

I've just received an email about trying to urgently deconflict some training that's double booked at the armoury on our synch matrix....

...in October 2018.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Haggis

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2018, 07:51:27 »
I've just received an email about trying to urgently deconflict some training that's double booked at the armoury on our synch matrix....

...in October 2018.

"Regret short notice."
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline Remius

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2018, 09:23:10 »
Just don't answer the phone/e-mail outside hours where you're signed in?

You're not under any obligation to do so.

Absolutely.  But in my experience, those people then are the first to complain when they miss taskings, or dates change or don't respond in time or they get bumped off a list.  Or when they get NES letters or whatever.

I have no issues with radio silence.  But I also have no sympathy for their complaints.
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2018, 09:30:47 »
Absolutely.  But in my experience, those people then are the first to complain when they miss taskings, or dates change or don't respond in time or they get bumped off a list.  Or when they get NES letters or whatever.

How often does all this happen in less than a week though?

How did we handle admin before the invention of email, cell phone, and text???

Prior to leaving the forces, I got extremely fed up with what seemed like completely unecassary changes to plans over the course of a week between parade nights.

As far as I was concerned, when the troops walked put the door at the end of a training nighy, there should know exactly what was happening the next training night, giving them a week to prepare and plan around their civilian lives accordingly.

Routinely however, over the course of the week, there'd be a half dozen emails, phone calls, or text messages, changing the plan.

Inevitably, at least some people would miss some of this communication (I have another whole angry rant about the words "didn't you get my text message?")  and it would only end it confusion.

Courtesy of working on a base dispersed over a couple of kilometers, very often the first hour of an evening was wasted just trying to get everyone to the one spot.

Reality is, the reserve world operates 1 night a week and 1 or 2 weekends a month.

Learn to work within those restrictions, it's the system you have.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 10:17:43 by Not a Sig Op »

Offline Remius

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2018, 09:43:17 »
How often does all this happen in less than a week though?

How did we handle admin before the invention of email, cell phone, and text???

A lot. Like last week trying to get guys on course.  Last minute spots opened up.

or when brigade needs names by Friday or dates suddenly change.

Or if said troop happens to miss a training night the one week has now become two.  A lot can change in two weeks.

We'll get staff checks with little detail and when the details become more clear then we have to re confirm. if buddy can't be bothered to respond until next week, I move onto the next person on the list.  Sometimes it will have to be first come first serve depending on how short notice things are.

Keep in mind that it also depends on when your training night is.  if it is a Monday or Tuesday, what you pass on in person might/will have changed by Thursday or Friday. 

Phone calls.  But if you are not going to answer and have no answering machine that isn't my problem.
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Offline Remius

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2018, 10:05:24 »
Reality is, the reserve world operates 1 night a week and 1 or 2 weekends a month.

Learn to work within those restrictions, it's the system you have.

Sorry, but that is the theory.  The reality is far from that.

We do.  Which is why I don't bemoan people who don't answer emails or phones calls.  But I also don't care if they chose to do that and missed out. Not my problem any more than it was theirs when they opted not to respond.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2018, 10:25:24 »
A lot. Phone calls.  But if you are not going to answer and have no answering machine that isn't my problem.

Ironically, we still do annual 'fan outs' by phone, just like 1979.

So we will inundate you with the trivial by email daily, then try to reach you at a number (and technology) you never use for the most urgent annually.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Mike5

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2018, 10:42:59 »
The Army's new funding model assumes about 100 days/year for unit command team.

That's five months full-time (at 20 working days/month).  How we expect Res unit command teams to (a) be senior leaders in their civilian jobs (b) be engaged in their community and (c) maintain some semblance of a family life, while working five months a year of evenings and weekends eludes me.


But god forbid a spreadsheet be late.

I resemble that comment :-).  I am a junior officer of my Res unit and (a) am a senior leader in my civilian job, (b) a Scout Leader, Little League coach and SAR volunteer in my community and (c) have a semblance of a family life.   And my spreadsheets are often late :-)
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Offline Remius

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2018, 10:50:10 »
Ironically, we still do annual 'fan outs' by phone, just like 1979.

So we will inundate you with the trivial by email daily, then try to reach you at a number (and technology) you never use for the most urgent annually.

Yep.  Phoning is still the best way to get a positive confirmation that someone received the info...
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Offline Brihard

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2018, 10:55:35 »
Ironically, we still do annual 'fan outs' by phone, just like 1979.

So we will inundate you with the trivial by email daily, then try to reach you at a number (and technology) you never use for the most urgent annually.

As soon as I get a fan out by any means, I immediately blast it in a succinct email the my section with request that they text or email when they got it. I then text them all to the effect of “fanout just came down, check your email ASAP”. Usually replies start almost immediately, and then I start the phone calls a couple minutes later in descending order of those I know are usually slowest to see email/text. It works well, usually by the time I call 3 or 4 the rest already replied concurrently by written means. Last iteration of this I was at a birthday party when Gatineau started going underwater and we got an 11pm Friday warning order.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 11:02:27 by Brihard »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2018, 11:02:03 »
"Seek out and accept responsibility" :dunno:

Problem is the guys and girls who seek out and look for loopholes. Then jag gets involved with all their rules and get out of jail free cards  ;D
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Offline Remius

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2018, 11:04:01 »
Ours was when immigrants started appearing at the Cornwall border crossing.  Fan out went out during summer stand down...
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Offline Lumber

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Re: MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2018, 13:39:14 »
I'd like to see the reference.

I thought you were serious.  I have a soldier without a phone, as far as I'm aware, and I was curious if there was an actual rule about providing contact info if you have it.

Ok I'm not 100% certain but it really seems like you guys are trying to be lower deck lawyers.

Have you honestly never been employed by a high readiness unit which requires you to be contactable?
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
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