Author Topic: Canadian Forces' senior brass have been growing at a much faster rate...  (Read 23397 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Navy_Pete

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 24,175
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 745
but we can't fail the same way a business can, what I am seeing right now is jr NCO's picking up the slack for SNCO's and officers who actually don't know what they are doing, way more then should be happening. What I can see failing is we get into a shooting war and our top heaviness is going to bite us in the *** very very hard.

Isn't the same thing happening in the jr ranks, where they get quickly promoted to fill up the more senior positions, which we have a hard time filling due to the attrition rate?  Maybe more acute in the Navy, but folks are getting into key positions with far less hands on experience than ever before. No big deal though; we have risk assessments in DRMIS to track it!  As long as you talk it til it's blue you are GTG!

Offline Old EO Tech

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 10,015
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 418
Isn't the same thing happening in the jr ranks, where they get quickly promoted to fill up the more senior positions, which we have a hard time filling due to the attrition rate?  Maybe more acute in the Navy, but folks are getting into key positions with far less hands on experience than ever before. No big deal though; we have risk assessments in DRMIS to track it!  As long as you talk it til it's blue you are GTG!

While that has been a problem in he past for some trades, at least in the CA, the SEM project and cutting of 60 CWO positions is going to put the breaks on this for likely the 2-5 years.  I'm seeing it already out west with having to find several post CSM MWO's jobs since they are not lined up this year for the few RSM jobs we have now.  This is going to trickle down to Sgt and MCpl promotions soon as well.

Jon

Offline PPCLI Guy

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 170,625
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,409
  • It's all good
While that has been a problem in he past for some trades, at least in the CA, the SEM project and cutting of 60 CWO positions is going to put the breaks on this for likely the 2-5 years.  I'm seeing it already out west with having to find several post CSM MWO's jobs since they are not lined up this year for the few RSM jobs we have now.  This is going to trickle down to Sgt and MCpl promotions soon as well.

Jon

RSM jobs are not being cut.  CWO technical jobs are, and all of those positions are being converted to either MWO or Capt.  There is zero change to the number of CSM jobs that feed the RSM pool.  This is how the non-technical trades (read combat arms) have had to do things for a long time now.
"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

Karl von Clausewitz

Offline Old EO Tech

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 10,015
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 418
RSM jobs are not being cut.  CWO technical jobs are, and all of those positions are being converted to either MWO or Capt.  There is zero change to the number of CSM jobs that feed the RSM pool.  This is how the non-technical trades (read combat arms) have had to do things for a long time now.

PPCLI Guy, no were did I state RSM jobs were being cut.  Yes the Combat Arms are not as affected as the CSS Corps, but they are still losing the CADTC Standard CWO and Career Managers, even the Combat Arms liked having tier 5 positions to develop CWO prior to being RSM's.  For the CSS Corps, losing the Tier 5 CWO means a large capability gap, downgrading them to MWO or Capt is not a solution, that just means a 25 year old Capts or 35 year old just promoted MWO are now the people being leaned on instead of a CWO with 30 years experience.  But this is another topic of discussion.

Cheers Jon

Offline CountDC

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 27,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,520
never understood why we need so many generals when it seems at least some of it could be handled at the LCol/Col level instead until dealing with mbrs of that rank that will not accept an answer from anyone that does not out rank them.  Maybe all the top heaviness is there to tell those Light and full Colonel that their staff and his staff is correct on the regulations and policies.   :facepalm:
"When the power of love, overcomes the love of power....the world will know peace" - Jimi Hendrix [1942-1970]

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 139,735
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Keep people at the Capt, Major and LCol ranks for longer, perhaps more pay levels and perhaps extra pay for certain skill sets/training. Since we know the maximum number of people that can be in, set the number of senior ranks to the numbers of pilots/soldiers/sailors serving. Also set the size of NDHQ civil and military to the size of the Combat Arms/squadrons and ships. You don't want to few senior officers, but you also don't want to many.   

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 235,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,405
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Keep people at the Capt, Major and LCol ranks for longer, perhaps more pay levels and perhaps extra pay for certain skill sets/training. Since we know the maximum number of people that can be in, set the number of senior ranks to the numbers of pilots/soldiers/sailors serving. Also set the size of NDHQ civil and military to the size of the Combat Arms/squadrons and ships. You don't want to few senior officers, but you also don't want to many.

Or we follow the lead of the private sector and embrace 'up then sideways' career pathing options:

http://fortune.com/2011/10/13/how-to-make-a-smart-lateral-career-move/
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

jollyjacktar

  • Guest
Or we follow the lead of the private sector and embrace 'up then sideways' career pathing options:

http://fortune.com/2011/10/13/how-to-make-a-smart-lateral-career-move/

Oh we're going sideways alright.  And l don't mean in a cool Ken Block fashion either.

Offline Halifax Tar

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,018
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,874
  • Ready Aye Ready
Or we follow the lead of the private sector and embrace 'up then sideways' career pathing options:

http://fortune.com/2011/10/13/how-to-make-a-smart-lateral-career-move/

Interesting concepts.  I truly hope before any "advantageous" changes are made in Officer career progression, pay grades, ect, ect; that the NCM world is thoroughly overhauled.  LT(N)/Capt already have excellent pay rates in 10 IPCs.  Meanwhile I know CPO2/MWOs who are massively underpaid in comparison to their level of responsibility both in terms of pers management and operationally.

I know a CPO2 that has roughly 75 people working for him (civi and Mil) and runs what is one of the busiest warehouses/depots in Canada, he has no Div O BTW.  Meanwhile we have an IPC 10 LT(N) who is I/C canoes.  Something is wrong there in the scheme of things, and lets not bring in the aiguillette folks who are paid to follow around our bloated brass. 

Our NCM corps deserves a major over haul in HR and Pay levels as they are in no way representative of what is expected and required of their jobs anymore, especially from the MS/MCpl rank and above. 

« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 16:32:17 by Halifax Tar »
Lead me, follow me or get the hell out of my way

Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 286,336
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,716
Quote from: Halifax Tar
Meanwhile we have an IPC 10 LT(N) who is I/C canoes.  
For real?
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Halifax Tar

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,018
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,874
  • Ready Aye Ready
For real?

Yup.  CIC/Reserve LT(N); I am unsure which as I haven't seem him with headdress on yet.  No names, no pack drill. 
Lead me, follow me or get the hell out of my way

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 207,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,756
Yup.  CIC/Reserve LT(N); I am unsure which as I haven't seem him with headdress on yet.  No names, no pack drill.
So, you know this guy is IPC 10, yet you don’t know if he is PRes or CIC? How much more of your examples were made-up/exaggerated to suit your conclusion?


Offline jeffb

    Really needs to stop buying guns... .

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 26,611
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 668
Keep people at the Capt, Major and LCol ranks for longer, perhaps more pay levels and perhaps extra pay for certain skill sets/training.

I think that time in rank is less important than the quality of time in rank. Look at the bios of most of the GOs from the Second World War. Simonds went from commanding 1 RCHA in 1940 to Bde Cdmd in 1942, Division Comd in 1943 and Corps command a year later. Patton had something like 2 weeks of combat experience before he commanded a Division in combat for the first time. Given the variety of ages and backgrounds on new officers these days, I'd offer that promotion should be more based on demonstrated competence then adherence to rigid gateways based on time. Not every year served actually improves experience or prepares for higher rank and there are many individuals entering the CAF now with civilian experience that is readily transferable.
~ Ubique ~
Simple is better except when complicated looks really cool.

Offline Halifax Tar

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,018
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,874
  • Ready Aye Ready
So, you know this guy is IPC 10, yet you don’t know if he is PRes or CIC? How much more of your examples were made-up/exaggerated to suit your conclusion?

How does one distinguish Res V Reg V CIC in NCDs ?  We don't have differentiating epaulettes like the Army does with unit tiles, all of ours just say Canada.  Headdress is rarely worn in our area; And I can only go off of what I am told and have seen.  If you want to refute that the NCM career and pay channels aren't in major need of an overhaul, be my guest.  Mature debate is always welcome, and its probably the only way we will find balance. 

All this is to say, I dont care if that LT(N) is IPC 1 or 10, lets play happy medium and say hes IPC 5; hes still making more than that CPO2 with all that staff and operational responsibility, and that simply isn't right.  I/C canoes is a job for a LS/Cpl.

Not all Officers are underemployed and not all NCMs are over employed, you can find examples in all avenues.  But in my still counting 18 years of, various bases, ships, regiments and units, I have noticed more and more work load and responsibility being pushed down upon the NCM corps without what I think is fair compensation, generally from MS/MCpl and above and especially at the MWO/CPO2 level and above.  Mean while we are cutting and slashing CPO1/CWO positions, while growing GOFO positions, because those CPO1/CWO aren't "command level". 

I have to ask, we have a uniformed service of what ?  65K (ish) ?  Yet we continue to produce shiny new A/SLTs and 2Lts at an astonishing rate.  Have a chat with your local Log O (Sea) folks, the backlog for A/HOD and HOD tours is immense, some will never get that opportunity.
Lead me, follow me or get the hell out of my way

Offline Halifax Tar

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,018
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,874
  • Ready Aye Ready
I think that time in rank is less important than the quality of time in rank. Look at the bios of most of the GOs from the Second World War. Simonds went from commanding 1 RCHA in 1940 to Bde Cdmd in 1942, Division Comd in 1943 and Corps command a year later. Patton had something like 2 weeks of combat experience before he commanded a Division in combat for the first time. Given the variety of ages and backgrounds on new officers these days, I'd offer that promotion should be more based on demonstrated competence then adherence to rigid gateways based on time. Not every year served actually improves experience or prepares for higher rank and there are many individuals entering the CAF now with civilian experience that is readily transferable.

I generally agree with this.  And I think you could import it over to NCM as well.  But how do you propose we measure demonstrated competence ?  I have been told in the US Navy in order to advance in rank you have to merit against your peers and complete leveled exams on your job knowledge, the combination of both scores pushes people forward.  Perhaps something we should look at ?
Lead me, follow me or get the hell out of my way

Offline jeffb

    Really needs to stop buying guns... .

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 26,611
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 668
This is going to sound crazy but civilians companies do this all the time. What about a promotion board that looks at your performance in your current job and your potential to advance based on your experience? Maybe even an interview? For lower ranks, this could be done by a somewhat local board comprised of members from outside your unit along with a PSO type to ensure continuity. As it stands today, you have people who are promoted simply because they added a bubble to their PER score year after year until they made it to a board with bilingualism. Perhaps not the best way to deliver competent leaders in my view.
~ Ubique ~
Simple is better except when complicated looks really cool.

Offline Cloud Cover

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 37,030
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,025
If they really want to get the job done like a company, start promoting for organizational results and sacking at a ruthless rate.
Living the lean life.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 235,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,405
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
If they really want to get the job done like a company, start promoting for organizational results and sacking at a ruthless rate.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/11/general-failure/309148/

Yup  :nod:
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 207,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,756
If you want to refute that the NCM career and pay channels aren't in major need of an overhaul, be my guest. 
Not my goal, but ... occasionally people of influence skim these boards, and even good ideas and right answers can lose support if decision makers are presented with bad arguments that arrive by accident to the correct solution.  Even a broken clock is correct occasionally.  Unlike clocks, people can be challenged on how they got to where they are and (in the process) maybe they clean-up faults found in the arguments … show they are right by design and not accident.

How does one distinguish Res V Reg V CIC in NCDs ? 
How does one distinguish one IPC from any other IPC in NCDs?  You stated as though it were known fact that this guy is IPC 10, but when you don't even know what component the guy is then I am skeptical you know his IPC.  And if you are ready to present something as known fact when it is not known fact, then you have to be prepared that people may question the veracity of everything you have typed.  It is not persuasive where your argument is that amelioration of officer career streams should be put on hold until NCM steams are addressed first (as though the two should be treated as independent silos and not addressed simultaneously) because you "know CPO2/MWOs who are massively underpaid in comparison to their level of responsibility" and you substantiate your position on two anecdotes & one generalization which may all three be solidly grounded in fiction or hyperbole.

All this is to say, I dont care if that LT(N) is IPC 1 or 10, lets play happy medium and say hes IPC 5 …
How about we not invent “facts” that may not match reality?

…hes still making more than that CPO2 with all that staff and operational responsibility, and that simply isn't right. 
Is he?  Accounting for the potential pay variances linked to not knowing component nor IPC (can I assume that you know he is not part time?), do we know this Lt(N) is making more or is this conclusion an assumption?

I/C canoes is a job for a LS/Cpl.
At face value, absolutely correct.  So, does this anecdote of the IC Canoes support the idea that “NCM career and pay channels are in major need of an overhaul” and that some CPO2/MWO are “massively underpaid in comparison to their level of responsibility” or does this anecdote reflect an aberration of an individual employed well below the level at which he should be?  And on the other hand, do you know all the duties of this Lt(N)?  Is IC Canoes a primary duty or secondary duty?  You have already demonstrated that you will play loose with the facts, so what other details have you omitted or distorted to make your case?

I know a CPO2 that has roughly 75 people working for him (civi and Mil) and runs what is one of the busiest warehouses/depots in Canada, he has no Div O BTW. 
Is he doing his job, or is he doing the job of a vacant Lt(N)/Capt position?  If he has stepped up and is filling a higher level function: would that support your idea that all CPO2/MWO should receive more compensation, or does it maybe suggest that the CAF could make more liberal use of AWSE promotions?

Not all Officers are underemployed and not all NCMs are over employed, you can find examples in all avenues. 
So it would seem reasonable that both officer and NCM positions should be examined to confirm personnel are being employed at the appropriate rank for the work being done?

But in my still counting 18 years of, various bases, ships, regiments and units, I have noticed more and more work load and responsibility being pushed down upon the NCM corps without what I think is fair compensation, generally from MS/MCpl and above and especially at the MWO/CPO2 level and above. 
I am not sure that I have seen this.  I have seen disproportionate workloads dumped on people of all ranks when other organizational positions are not filled, when the CAF elements try to do more than they were established to do, and when a few fit individuals get stuck carrying slack for unfit individuals.  I have also seen various levels of HQ claw-back authorities from subordinate levels, thereby diminishing the scope that leaders (particularly COs) have to take action. 

I have also seen plenty of Capt/Lt(N) doing jobs that should rightfully be done by Lt/SLt (and our system of time based promotions at that level sees a lot of Capt/Lt(N) who really were not ready to have been promoted past Lt/SLt).  Some clean-up and institutional discipline on this front could make sure only the right people are getting that second full bar (or third star) and that you never find them filling jobs intended to keep them away from places where they can be dangerous.

Meanwhile we are cutting and slashing CPO1/CWO positions, while growing GOFO positions, because those CPO1/CWO aren't "command level". 
What is your counter proposal?  There are a few converted CPO1/CWO positions that have been converted to CPO2/MWO or Capt/Lt(N) that I would have preferred be left as is, but there are a whole lot more that should have been converted previously.  There is also requirement to do clean-up at the GOFO level, but going in the wrong direction at that level should not be argument for not going in the right direction at the CPO1/CWO level, right?

Offline QV

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 8,945
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 330
I guess there are more than just one IPC 10 I/C of canoes around!  ;)

Offline Journeyman

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 542,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,992
... occasionally people of influence skim these boards, and even good ideas and right answers can lose support if decision makers are presented with bad arguments that arrive by accident to the correct solution.
I'm sorry Halifax Tar -- I am a fan of your posts, since you tend to post what you actually know about*... but I have to back MCG on this one.


* Ya, for whatever that's worth.  ;)
Yes folks, for Loggie (writ large) or Bin Rat (specific) issues: ArmyVern, Halifax Tar, dapaterson, and MJP.   :nod:

Yes, if you wear the crossed paper-clips and didn't make the list, maybe you need to up your game.
   :whistle:

Offline NavyShooter

    Boaty McBoatface!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 183,936
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,022
  • Death from a Bar.....one shot, one Tequilla
I'll jump in for a sec. 

I know the CPO2 in question - his role is as I/C of a warehouse.  I work as a CPO2 in the same warehouse, but under a different umbrella.  He has 70+ pers (mil/civ) under his wings, and works damn hard.  That said, he does have a civilian counterpart that he works with - not my umbrella, not my people, but the two work together as equals with the Mil/civ issues. 

I do not know the referenced LT(N).  I won't go down that path at all.

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline DetectiveMcNulty

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 58,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,487
I'll jump in for a sec. 

I know the CPO2 in question - his role is as I/C of a warehouse.  I work as a CPO2 in the same warehouse, but under a different umbrella.  He has 70+ pers (mil/civ) under his wings, and works damn hard.  That said, he does have a civilian counterpart that he works with - not my umbrella, not my people, but the two work together as equals with the Mil/civ issues. 

I do not know the referenced LT(N).  I won't go down that path at all.

NS

If I/C canoes is a real thing (and if what I saw in Ottawa was any indication, it wouldn't be a huge stretch) then you should totally beg for a CFR! What a gig!

Offline Target Up

    ........pull, patch, and score.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 222,320
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,819
  • that's how we roll in redneck land
This is funny crap. I was a Cpl in B Ops Chilliwack in 86-87. I owned  6 X Sealander bridging boats and all the wet bridging equipment at Cultus Lk.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline DetectiveMcNulty

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 58,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,487
This is funny crap. I was a Cpl in B Ops Chilliwack in 86-87. I owned  6 X Sealander bridging boats and all the wet bridging equipment at Cultus Lk.

Sounds like the Queen owes you some backpay!