Author Topic: Class A service and AWOL  (Read 11538 times)

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Online mariomike

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2018, 23:13:33 »
Yes,
It's possible and been discussed on the site before.

For reference to the discussion,

Having gone down the "charging a Class B with AWOL" road several times (with several JAGs) it's pretty well impossible in all but the most blatant cases.  Try it sometimes and if you actually get one through to a conviction, give me the name of your JAG.
 

The issue of whether or not Class Bs could be charged for AWOL (considering the provisions of QR&O 102.01 (NDA 60(1) which limits when reservists are subject to the CSD) was a matter of debate within the branch and if I remember correctly now (this goes back to many years for my brain and the interpretations did change somewhat) was dependant on how the individual's Class B contract was written. One had to analyse if the individual came within the provisions of the QR&O at any given time. The problem here was not dumb lawyers, but supervisors who thought Class B's were liable just like regular force members when in fact the laws of Canada (NDA 60(1)) said otherwise. The NDA was never changed but I believe (but am not sure) that subsequent contracts were eventually standardized to provide greater certainty.

Cheers

A reservist on Class A service, who neglects or refuses to attend a particular training session is liable to be charged and brought for trial before a civilian court pursuant to s 294(1) of the NDA and, if found guilty, is liable to be fined a maximum of $25.00 (if an non commissioned member) and $50.00 (if an officer) for every day of training he fails or neglects to attend.

A reservist on Class B or C service would in a similar case most probably be liable to charges under the CSD because at the time they fail to attend they would most probably be subject to s 60(1)(c).

As I stated above, s 33(2)(a) of the NDA gives the chain of command the legal authority to order an individual to attend training (either Class A or B) within the limits laid down by QR&O 9.04(2).

The GiC has no application or role in the circumstances of training. s 31 has a completely different purpose.

 :cheers:

etc...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 09:47:28 by mariomike »

Offline expwor

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2018, 09:50:54 »
Just a dumb question and going back to my Militia days (1979-1981) But are Reservists told when they join what their obligations are? Reason I ask after SRTP I decided to join. I knew (because I was told) that the obligation was one night a week and one weekend a month training. Nothing about duty watches. And in fairness never heard of anyone getting a duty watch. So are Reservists now told when they join that in addition to the one evening per week and one weekend a month they may pull a duty watch?
And if not isn't the Reserve unit obliged to tell a prospective Reservist what his/her obligations will be before he/she signs on the dotted line?
Again, just asking a question

Tom

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2018, 10:03:28 »
There has always been duty watches in the Naval Reserve Divisions. The units are treated as ships - not land bases - and onboard our ships in harbour, whether at night, week-end or during the work day, there is always a duty watch in function. That is just the way our working life is organized onboard a ship. Reserve Divisions copy that model to run their activities. That's all.

Offline expwor

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2018, 10:09:07 »
There has always been duty watches in the Naval Reserve Divisions. The units are treated as ships - not land bases - and onboard our ships in harbour, whether at night, week-end or during the work day, there is always a duty watch in function. That is just the way our working life is organized onboard a ship. Reserve Divisions copy that model to run their activities. That's all.

OK Thanks.  That does answer my question

Tom

Offline FJAG

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2018, 12:24:38 »
Just a dumb question and going back to my Militia days (1979-1981) But are Reservists told when they join what their obligations are? Reason I ask after SRTP I decided to join. I knew (because I was told) that the obligation was one night a week and one weekend a month training. Nothing about duty watches. And in fairness never heard of anyone getting a duty watch. So are Reservists now told when they join that in addition to the one evening per week and one weekend a month they may pull a duty watch?
And if not isn't the Reserve unit obliged to tell a prospective Reservist what his/her obligations will be before he/she signs on the dotted line?
Again, just asking a question

Tom

When a reservist joins his ultimate obligation is that he/she may be required to fight and possibly die for their country (see NDA s 33(1) http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/page-7.html#h-22). Everything else is small beer. There is no comprehensive list of what they can and cannot be required to do.

That said, it requires an order in council to activate reservists or reserve units. QR&O 9.04 is one such regulation which authorizes the making of orders requiring a reservist to attend "training". To the best of my knowledge there is no existing regulation to allow ordering them to provide security services, per se. I'll leave it to others (read that to mean a serving DJA or AJAG) to determine or argue as to whether or not the services being described here can be considered "training" within the meaning of QR&O 9.04 or any other regulation.

 :cheers:
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Offline expwor

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2018, 12:46:39 »
When a reservist joins his ultimate obligation is that he/she may be required to fight and possibly die for their country (see NDA s 33(1) http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/page-7.html#h-22). Everything else is small beer. There is no comprehensive list of what they can and cannot be required to do.

That said, it requires an order in council to activate reservists or reserve units. QR&O 9.04 is one such regulation which authorizes the making of orders requiring a reservist to attend "training". To the best of my knowledge there is no existing regulation to allow ordering them to provide security services, per se. I'll leave it to others (read that to mean a serving DJA or AJAG) to determine or argue as to whether or not the services being described here can be considered "training" within the meaning of QR&O 9.04 or any other regulation.

 :cheers:

And Thank You Too.  Also answers my question

Tom

Offline meni0n

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2018, 10:23:56 »
What is the point of doing this duty during a parade night? Who secures the building for the rest of the week? Sounds like a case of "I had to do it in the Navy, now you have to do it". If I had to take come in and spend my time doing a useless duty instead of training during what little training days there are, I would rather spend my time more wisely like with my family.

The fact that you wanted to charge a class A reservist with AWOL for this shows what kind of leadership style you practice and I wouldn't be surprised if your attempt to punish the individual would have a counter productive effect on the group.

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Offline MARS

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2018, 12:22:32 »
It has been decade since I was in a NRD Command team, but during the daytime, with only, say, 11 people in the building from 0800-1600, evacuating the building in an emergency was simple and easily handled by whoever had that responsibility.

On an Admin night, with upwards of 80 people, or a Training Night, with easily double that many in the building, and 3 bars that were open, it required an actual team of people to perform an evacuation in the event of a fire or to deal with whatever other things happened.

Perhaps it is indeed a matter of "the Navy has always done it this way" and I am unsure as to how the other Elements run their show, but my NRD never had any of the fumble-frig incidents that my neighbouring militia armouries did, with damage being done to the premises as a result of the bars being open and what I assume were less robust Duty Watches.

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Offline Jed

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2018, 13:03:37 »
Just an observation, IMO the CAF will continue to bleed people until you can put some of the fun back into being in the military. All work and no play make Jack and Jill dull boys and girls.

What with the politically correct and overly sensitive world that is constantly under public scrutiny, this is a very difficult goal to attain.
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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2018, 13:18:03 »
The fact that you wanted to charge a class A reservist with AWOL for this shows what kind of leadership style you practice and I wouldn't be surprised if your attempt to punish the individual would have a counter productive effect on the group.

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Offline CountDC

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2018, 13:32:43 »
Duty Watch on a stone frigate could also be viewed as training in prep for when the nav-res mbr goes onto a real ship. 

Think of it this way:

Navy - Duty Watch on a ship
Army - Sentry Duty in the field

Seems to me that both are important and good training. 

Part of the problem is that people tend to think of the stone frigate duty watch as equivalent to the army reserve duty/orderly Cpl/NCO/O that mainly seems to be there to look after the mess. 
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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2018, 13:49:26 »
I'm not sure how duty NCO has become such a big deal or so construed that we're talking about it being an additional duty above and beyond or instead of regular training. When acting as duty NCO in my unit you are duty for "two weeks." All this means that on two Wednesdays you wear the duty NCO brassard, report to the duty officer, wear your headdress in the mess and don't consume alcohol. You're required to stay in the mess until 0100 (or the last member leaves, whichever is first) at which point the duty O relieves you and you've made an extra half days pay. During the training night, you still participate in your regular training.

On the third Wednesday, you hand over everything to the incoming duty NCO. The only other time you would actually be required to work outside of your regular training nights would be events like Remembrance Day (at which you would be present any way) or any mess events.

If you can't commit, it is your responsibility to find a replacement otherwise you could face disciplinary action.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2018, 17:22:11 »
If you can't commit, it is your responsibility to find a replacement otherwise you could face disciplinary action.

Isn't the part in yellow the original question/topic? 

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Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2018, 17:39:25 »
The fact that you wanted to charge a class A reservist with AWOL for this shows what kind of leadership style you practice and...

That's a little harsh, isn't it?  The OP has a situation ( someone decided to not do a duty considered normal in their unit, and there is likely a concern of "if Johny can do it and nothing happens, everyone will do it" ) and is asking for people's thoughts and opinions.  Assuming the OP is also a Cl A mbr, they don't necessarily have the time to dig thru numerous references or attend trg like the UDI/CL trg (some) AJAGs provide that some of us do (and get paid for it, because mine was just a normal work day).

That doesn't have to indicate a "leadership style", just a problem and limited options for a solution, IMO.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 17:46:04 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline meni0n

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2018, 17:52:36 »
You're right I might have been too harsh in drawing my opinion. I just despise the attitude that some people take with regards to reserves. People volontueer for this and also have primary careers along with family commitments. Threating people with charges or disciplinary measures is just absurd to me.

Especially with the attitude of "Well i sent him am email he better be there." or "You're on duty for the next two weeks and if you're busy you need to find a replacement."

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2018, 18:26:32 »
Isn't the part in yellow the original question/topic?

It is, yes. And my point is that since something like duty for a Class A member falls within their expected training time, it isn't too much to ask and disciplinary measure up to and including AWOL are not to be unexpected. Somewhere along the line though it seemed to me that people were thinking duty was outside of the one night a week/one weekend a month thing and that we shouldn't punish someone for not attending something outside their expected working period. Technically, yes it is, but the expectation is not that the member will attend every day or night during that two week period. Hell, our duty NCOs don't even have a duty phone.
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Offline meni0n

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2018, 19:21:01 »
But how can you be AWOL if you didn't sign the pay sheet.

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2018, 20:20:37 »
But how can you be AWOL if you didn't sign the pay sheet.
His point I think is less about fine legal distinctions and more about the obligations incumbent on leaders in the reserve force. The fact that the military justice system in this case (as in so very many others) fails to provide us the tools needed to help us do our jobs just means we have to rely on other resources.

In the case of class "A" members who don't come to work, I long ago concluded that the tool for the job was administrative: IC/RW/C+P/goodbye, just as any civilian employer would do.

Offline runormal

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2018, 21:10:08 »
Duty Watch on a stone frigate could also be viewed as training in prep for when the nav-res mbr goes onto a real ship. 

Think of it this way:

Navy - Duty Watch on a ship
Army - Sentry Duty in the field

Seems to me that both are important and good training. 

I've never made a subordinate stand a sentry in the field when I'm in charge. Nor has anyone ever made me do a sentry shift (outside of stove watch). Granted my trade's situation is a little unique in that we are either supporting someone else and they typically provide the security, it's not a tactical exercise or we are so far away from the AO that we won't get bumped.

What I learned on my DP 1.0 course was that we were supposed to deploy with 1x C9 for security, establish a battle trench and a shell scrape every time we set up. I've been for almost 7 years and I've never seen it done. It's not a good use of time/morale, hell it's very rare that I'll even get blanks issued (which sucks). Therefore, why would I waste my subordinates time and unecessarily sleep frig my troops? Everything is getting ripped down in 36 hours anyways and we've got a several hour drive ahead of us back to get the armoury. More then likely, one of my guys is going to have drive someone else's truck back because the guys attached to the infantry got sleep ****ed. If anyone is bored they can mentor the new guy or the new guy can be mentored by a senior cpl. 

I don't need to question my troops ability to stay awake on a sentry shift, this was covered during BMQ, BMQ-L, BWW and DP 1.0. They aren't children and if they can't stay awake that then they shouldn't of passed and it's a failure on the training system. If/when they fall asleep on shift/sentry it can be dealt with accordingly. All they need to do is be able to do is stay awake and yell "Stand To". If there was an active enemy threat and we were "playing", actually issued ROE's and blanks then it'd be different story, but I'm not cocking my guys around for no reason.

Perhaps it is indeed a matter of "the Navy has always done it this way" and I am unsure as to how the other Elements run their show, but my NRD never had any of the fumble-frig incidents that my neighbouring militia armouries did, with damage being done to the premises as a result of the bars being open and what I assume were less robust Duty Watches.

We have a commissionaire who does acess control and the other unit that I was in just locked their door from the outside and someone needed to let you in. If you came in late, then you needed to buzz in. In both units, I've never seen anyone break anything at the mess and I'm a very active participant of the mess.

In the case of class "A" members who don't come to work, I long ago concluded that the tool for the job was administrative: IC/RW/C+P/goodbye, just as any civilian employer would do.

Maybe, but if people don't want to show up to work after how much money/time we've invested into them then there are bigger issues at play. We don't really have extra bodies that we have the luxury of being able to kick people out. Class A should be exciting part-time career, but when it's the same BS over and over again, you can't get the time off for PLQ and the Reg-F won't process your CT/OT then it's no surprise that people pull pin shortly after University is done. Having to stand a duty watch for no real reason instead of doing the job you signed up for doesn't help.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 21:19:32 by runormal »

Offline meni0n

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2018, 21:12:58 »
Not sure how you can justify any of that. There is a minimum amount of time that a reservist is obliged to parade. Going even the administrative route just because someone didn't show up for a parade night is just ridiculous. There is a reason the military legal system won't entertain AWOL charges and trying to circumvent that by using administrative measures is dishonest and abusive. If the person is not fulfilling the minimal required obligations, that's why there is NES otherwise punishing people because they have lives and prioritize family and career above part-time class A when it's required is why this type of mindset needs to go/retire from the military.

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2018, 21:30:24 »
Not sure how you can justify any of that. There is a minimum amount of time that a reservist is obliged to parade. Going even the administrative route just because someone didn't show up for a parade night is just ridiculous. There is a reason the military legal system won't entertain AWOL charges and trying to circumvent that by using administrative measures is dishonest and abusive. If the person is not fulfilling the minimal required obligations, that's why there is NES otherwise punishing people because they have lives and prioritize family and career above part-time class A when it's required is why this type of mindset needs to go/retire from the military.

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If Bloggins tells his chain of command ahead of time "I will not be available for the duty watch next Thursday", Bloggins is being responsible.  (Even if his reason is "The Teletubbies are coming to town, and I have a front row ticket.  No, I have no kids.")

If Bloggins is told and knows that he has the duty watch next Thursday, and calls in to say "A thousand pardons, but my house is currently on fire, so I shan't be able to attend" again, Bloggins is being responsible.

If Bloggins, knowing full well that he has been assigned the duty watch decides to just not show up and not tell anyone, then Bloggins is not being responsible.  And the CoC has an obligation to work with Bloggins to improve his performance.  And Bloggins' peers also have a vested interest in this as well, because if he bails without notice, they get stuck with his responsibilities.

So in that final instance, using administrative measures to get Bloggins in gear is entirely appropriate.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2018, 22:25:43 »
Having to stand a duty watch for no real reason instead of doing the job you signed up for doesn't help.

On the flip side of the coin...didn't we all sign up under the conditions of "Universality of service"?  And that would include...stuff outside of your trade stuff;  GDs, sentry is tasked for it, etc.  I've never been NavRes, but the idea that they run the Res side similar to the Reg side with duty watches isn't really that far fetched.  Doesn't the Army Res operate similar to the Reg Army?  Similarly, in the Air Force, both Reg and Res folks call each other by their first name, and get haircuts every 2 months if we need it or not.  RCN Reg and Res having 'duty watch' systems...I can see that.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5023-0.page

Principle of Universality of Service

Application: This is an order that applies to officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF members).

2.4 The principle of universality of service or "soldier first" principle holds that CAF members are liable to perform general military duties and common defence and security duties, not just the duties of their military occupation or occupational specification. This may include, but is not limited to, the requirement to be physically fit, employable and deployable for general operational duties.


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Offline runormal

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2018, 23:21:00 »
On the flip side of the coin...didn't we all sign up under the conditions of "Universality of service"?  And that would include...stuff outside of your trade stuff;  GDs, sentry is tasked for it, etc.  I've never been NavRes, but the idea that they run the Res side similar to the Reg side with duty watches isn't really that far fetched.  Doesn't the Army Res operate similar to the Reg Army?  Similarly, in the Air Force, both Reg and Res folks call each other by their first name, and get haircuts every 2 months if we need it or not.  RCN Reg and Res having 'duty watch' systems...I can see that.

I mean the reg-f army does duty watches for  what I believe to be a similar purpose, but we don't and there wouldn't be any value in doing it. No one else should be in the building outside our unit on our parade night. The amount of people parading or "special guests" showing up wouldn't warrant us to do it.

I don't see how the Nav Res can be drastically different than the Army Res on a parade night. To me it seems like the wrong time/place to do this. There's such a limited number of training opportunities for the p-res so to waste any of them to do access control to me seems like a complete waste of time. Again, having never served in the Nav Res all I'm assuming that the sailor is doing is sitting a chair and checking in ID's and calling up escorts as/when required.

It also seems odd that it's only an issue if you miss your watch but missing a parade night doesn't matter. I get that I OS Bloggins doesn't show up then it ****s up the whole flow of the training night and someone else needs to do OS Bloggins watch and now your down two students for a lesson/mandatory briefing. I also get that if OS Bloggins doesn't get in trouble then OS Smith might think that's it's ok to say "I'm not doing the the duty watch either." However, then it goes back to the question of "Why is there a duty watch in the first place and could everyone's time be better spent?"
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 23:25:21 by runormal »

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2018, 01:39:54 »
Quote
It also seems odd that ....
....the two most vocal 'SMEs' on how the Navy Reserve should operate are 2 x Militia Sigs Cpls.


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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Class A service and AWOL
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2018, 05:57:41 »
I'm not sure how duty NCO has become such a big deal or so construed that we're talking about it being an additional duty above and beyond or instead of regular training. When acting as duty NCO in my unit you are duty for "two weeks." All this means that on two Wednesdays you wear the duty NCO brassard, report to the duty officer, wear your headdress in the mess and don't consume alcohol. You're required to stay in the mess until 0100 (or the last member leaves, whichever is first) at which point the duty O relieves you and you've made an extra half days pay. During the training night, you still participate in your regular training.

On the third Wednesday, you hand over everything to the incoming duty NCO. The only other time you would actually be required to work outside of your regular training nights would be events like Remembrance Day (at which you would be present any way) or any mess events.

If you can't commit, it is your responsibility to find a replacement otherwise you could face disciplinary action.

As a current Class A Reservist and former Navy member if someone told me to do this I would tell them either to pound salt or I am not coming in those nights. Some of us actually have lives, personally I get up at 4 or 5 every morning to go work in a heavy industry job. Staying up to 10 or 11 on a parade night is hard enough, let alone going up to the mess, watching people get drunk, and having to stay up to 1am for no real reason.

Personally I show up more than the minimum, but no one should be penalized for showing up the minimum. Those people have met the commitment they agreed to and as such do not deserve to be punished for it. Maybe not prioritized for taskings and such, but actual charges and disciplinary measures are against what they agreed to.